Is The Grass Greener On The Other Side?

[Ouroboros]

“You are also forgeting million of babies who have died throughout the centuaries. Right they now they are burning in hell”

 

“Babies that died in the crib before they could speak will be punished for it”

 

 

I don’t know where you are getting this but you are grossly misinformed.

From many Christian believers.

 

 

You have to believe in Christ to be saved... or do you have a different gospel?

 

 

The misinformation is that there is no information what happens to babies that dies.

 

You don't know, but you can believe a certain way, and it's a 50/50% chance they go to heaven or hell. Unfortunately you don't have a clear scripture to lean on. Maybe the only one you can use is "let the children come to me."

 

But then you have another problem, when is someone a child and when is he not? When does a person have to start believing in Jesus to avoid Hell? At what age? Does a person with IQ 50 really never have to believe, because he's like a child?

 

 

------------

 

“People that used their brains that this supposed God gave them, and use reason instead of blind faith, will be punished for it.”

 

 

This, of course, is another declaration of the glorious clarity of evolutionary religion.

 

Here’s how people who believe in it use their brains:

 

They believe that the components of the DNA molecule somehow formed by natural means. They also believe that all the ultra-complex enzymes which facilitate DNA replication also randomly assembled themselves.

 

One of these enzymes proof-reads the duplicated molecule and corrects errors with astonishing effectiveness and accuracy. After this check and repair function is complete, the error rate is one in one billion.

 

This is a nightmare for evolutionary theory. If random evolutionary events were responsible for the production of self-replicating DNA, these processes made a very counter-evolutionary move in tucking the fix enzymes into the process. Their explicit role is to prevent mutations. No mutations, no evolution.

 

In other words, evolution designed mechanisms to prevent evolution. Error-destroying ninja enzymes.

 

But then this is just one isolated problem. How did the molecule itself originate? We’re talking three billion base pairs in humans. How did the enzymes originate? These are phenomenally complex proteins. How do they do what they do to the nucleotides? How do enzymes recognize errors? Are they smart?

Now it's your turn to misunderstand evolution.

 

Don’t kid yourself about faith. Yours is planet-sized and blind as a turnip, with which you share common ancestry, according to your religion.

This shows your ignorance and complete lack of insight. You have no clue what you're talking about.

 

Oh, and I have to add one thing.

 

Let's say we wanted to prove that God existed, then we have a problem with the Christian faith, because everytime someone wants to prove the Christian God, the excuse is "you can not test God". Testing is very essential for scientific proof, so the Christian clearly make the statement that God is not to be proven. Hence, every Christian claiming to have a proof of God, contradicts their own claims that God can not and should not be tested (or proven).

[crazy-tiger]

Here’s how people who believe in it use their brains:

 

They believe that the components of the DNA molecule somehow formed by natural means. They also believe that all the ultra-complex enzymes which facilitate DNA replication also randomly assembled themselves.

 

One of these enzymes proof-reads the duplicated molecule and corrects errors with astonishing effectiveness and accuracy. After this check and repair function is complete, the error rate is one in one billion.

That I have a hard time believing, since the known error rate is 120 per cell...

If this enzyme was so effective, the error rate would be much less... towards 1 or 2 a cell!

 

Again, you show that the data you rely on is badly flawed and/or severely twisted. Either way, you're never going to come to an accurate conclusion.

This is a nightmare for evolutionary theory. If random evolutionary events were responsible for the production of self-replicating DNA, these processes made a very counter-evolutionary move in tucking the fix enzymes into the process. Their explicit role is to prevent mutations. No mutations, no evolution.

 

In other words, evolution designed mechanisms to prevent evolution. Error-destroying ninja enzymes.

See above... and notice how your "argument" is shown to be a strawman.

But then this is just one isolated problem. How did the molecule itself originate? We’re talking three billion base pairs in humans. How did the enzymes originate? These are phenomenally complex proteins. How do they do what they do to the nucleotides? How do enzymes recognize errors? Are they smart?

Don't kid yourself on complexity... you who insisted that valves had to be incredibly complex, yet failed to consider that there are valves consisting of nothing more than a flap of flesh. (and you ran when that was pointed out... when are you going to answer that point?)

 

Is there any point in correcting your stupendous errors? Is there any point in giving you the correct data?

No... because you don't want to learn anything, you just want to attack evolution.

Don’t kid yourself about faith. Yours is planet-sized and blind as a turnip, with which you share common ancestry, according to your religion.

And again with the "evolution is a religion" bull.

 

Just because you say it's a religion, doesn't make it one. The fact that it has few, if any, of the characteristics of a religion shows that you're wrong.

[cathuria]

Both of these silly bits actually bear on Foxy's original question:

 

Theologically speaking, if God exists he can do whatever he wants.

 

 

Thanks, Goldstein -- got a laugh out of that.

 

 

But then this is just one isolated problem. How did the molecule itself originate?

 

They are a natural by-product of stellar activity -- supernova nebulae are just stuffed with these proteins. And their "astonishing" behavior is nothing but simple math & chemistry that has long been examined, explained and is routinely duplicated in college microbiology labs on a daily basis.

 

And as for the original question -- it's thinking like the above that shows the extreme disadvantage of believing in a personal god. The universe just doesn't make sense when you try to do that.

 

But... once you take God out of the equation, the world is a simpler, more sensible and even more comfortable place to live.

 

Me, I'm not missing god one bit.

[Ouroboros]

I didn't welcome you Cathuria before, so here I do... welcome!

[cathuria]

I didn't welcome you Cathuria before, so here I do... welcome!

 

Thanks! Glad to be here... (Wow. I found intelligent people on the internet -- who'da thunk it?)

[txviper]

HanSolo,

 

“Now it's your turn to misunderstand evolution……..This shows your ignorance and complete lack of insight. You have no clue what you're talking about.”

 

Wow. What an amazing rebuttal. It’s hard to argue with an in-depth analysis like that.

 

But just so there is no lingering doubt about either my ignorance or your very coherent grasp of evolutionary theory, perhaps you should just dismantle my replication enzyme argument.

 

This should be an easy exercise for you. I framed the whole thing up in 8 lines. All you need to do is point out the technical errors and state your own incisive conclusion, and you will be a champion. Are you up to it?

[SkepticOfBible]

“You are also forgeting million of babies who have died throughout the centuaries. Right they now they are burning in hell”

 

“Babies that died in the crib before they could speak will be punished for it”

 

 

I don’t know where you are getting this but you are grossly misinformed.

 

 

Protestant Christian Theology 101

 

1)All(including babies and young children) are born in Original Sin

2)Because of Original Sin We Are Going To Hell

3)The Only Way To Save Yourself Is to Repent In Jesus Christ

4)Believers will go to Heaven because of their belief in JC

5)All Unbelievers(including babies young children) will go to hell and suffer the everlasting torture

 

Second source for this information are christians themselves

 

David Walter Ministry

 

A special message from David Walters

Some people think that if kids die when they are young, they will go to heaven. They believe this, because they think kids are innocent, but they are wrong. We know that God loves kids, (the first thing He told Adam and Eve to do was to have kids.) God wanted kids to be like Him, but Adam and Eve, our great, great, great, great, etc. etc. grandparents messed up and so a lot of kids have turned up behaving more like the devil, than God.

 

So Listen Kids

You don't go to heaven because your cute. You don't go to heaven because your a kid. You only go to heaven if you have had you're sins washed in the blood of Jesus and you have made Him your Lord and Savior.

 

Show scriptures from the bible which proves my understanding wrong?

[txviper]

"Show scriptures from the bible which proves my understanding wrong?"

 

You show them that prove that you are not.

[crazy-tiger]

But just so there is no lingering doubt about either my ignorance or your very coherent grasp of evolutionary theory, perhaps you should just dismantle my replication enzyme argument.

I did... but you seem to enjoy ignoring those who prove you wrong, don't you?

This should be an easy exercise for you. I framed the whole thing up in 8 lines. All you need to do is point out the technical errors and state your own incisive conclusion, and you will be a champion. Are you up to it?

It was very easy... in fact it was almost as easy as falling off a log.

 

 

 

 

Come on tx... I demolished your "valve" argument, Neil conclusively demolished your "dino soft tissue" argument, everyone's demolished your "random mutations only" argument, White Raven has destroyed your "Darwinists were responsible for the Holocaust" argument, your whole "mutations are rare" argument was a lesson in quote-mining and context removal, I've just demolished your "enzyme" argument, your "the system must appear all at the same time or it's useless" argument was demolished extremely quickly, your repeated arguments about the "morphologically similar" bactreia has been proven wrong, your argument against Macro-evolution (fish to amphibians specifically) was destroyed by this animal (Amphipnous cuchia), and you've been shown to use PRATTs instead of something that might be a useful point...

 

You're wasting our time and there's no entertainment value left.

 

"Show scriptures from the bible which proves my understanding wrong?"

 

You show them that prove that you are not.

This from someone who's "proof" that he's right is a load of quote-mined garbage, twisted articles, outright lies and "I'm right because I don't think you are"...

 

Fuck it, tx... give us some evidence to back up your claims!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can't do that? Then fuck off.

[SkepticOfBible]

"Show scriptures from the bible which proves my understanding wrong?"

 

You show them that prove that you are not.

 

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Babies and Young Children haven't already believed in Christ, so obviously God's Wrath will be on them.

Matt 12:30

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

 

Babies and Young Children haven't made the choice to be with Christ, so by default they are against him

 

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

Babies and Young Children do not believe in Christ

 

And when I say children and Babies, I do mean mean babies and young children around the world.

 

Wonderful illustration from Jack Chick On Whole Damnation Thing

 

Realities of Hell(Baptist Viewpoint)

 

Plus I showed a christian website which proves my point. Hopefully you don't believe in the doctrine of Universal Salvation?

 

Hell Doctrine At Carm.org

 

Here is another questions

 

What is the status of the Jews who died under Nazi persecution?Are they burning in hell?

[txviper]

pritish,

 

You have verses and a misinterpretation for them, and you have websites that you think support your point of view. So you are all fixed and finished.

 

 

"What is the status of the Jews who died under Nazi persecution?Are they burning in hell?"

 

Those who understood the issue but did not believe, are languishing in sheol, awaiting final judgment. Those whose volition was never involved are in heaven. It works the same for everyone. Being Jewish is not a factor.

[Fweethawt]

pritish,

 

You have verses and a misinterpretation for them, and you have websites that you think support your point of view. So you are all fixed and finished.

 

 

"What is the status of the Jews who died under Nazi persecution?Are they burning in hell?"

 

Those who understood the issue but did not believe, are languishing in sheol, awaiting final judgment. Those whose volition was never involved are in heaven. It works the same for everyone. Being Jewish is not a factor.

So, all of those verses that were posted above are false then, right?

 

 

Do the context dance!

Do the context dance!

Do the context dance!

 

[MQTA]

“You are also forgeting million of babies who have died throughout the centuaries. Right they now they are burning in hell”

 

“Babies that died in the crib before they could speak will be punished for it”

 

 

I don’t know where you are getting this but you are grossly misinformed.

 

 

Protestant Christian Theology 101

 

1)All(including babies and young children) are born in Original Sin

2)Because of Original Sin We Are Going To Hell

3)The Only Way To Save Yourself Is to Repent In Jesus Christ

4)Believers will go to Heaven because of their belief in JC

5)All Unbelievers(including babies young children) will go to hell and suffer the everlasting torture

 

6) If you're Catholic, you're going to hell, you shouldn't pray to anyone but Jesus, or it's Idolatry! and they're offended. post 30

 

Funny.. to a Jew, praying to JESUS is idolatry.

[SkepticOfBible]

You have verses and a misinterpretation for them,

 

How have I misinterpretated them?Do unbelievers go through eternal torment as punishment for disbeleif or not?

 

and you have websites that you think support your point of view.

 

So have I misquoted the websites?Are the website misinterpretating the articles?Isn't hell real according to the bible?

 

"What is the status of the Jews who died under Nazi persecution?Are they burning in hell?"

Those who understood the issue but did not believe, are languishing in sheol, awaiting final judgment.

 

I am specifically talking about the Jews who rejected Christ in their life?Will they sent to hell for their unbelief in christ?

 

What's is sheol?What do you mean by languashing?Are they in pain?

 

As far judgement goes, isn't faith alone gonna decide who goes up(believers) and who goes down(unbelievers)?

 

Those whose volition was never involved are in heaven. It works the same for everyone. Being Jewish is not a factor.

 

Please explain.

[Ouroboros]

pritish,

 

You have verses and a misinterpretation for them, and you have websites that you think support your point of view. So you are all fixed and finished.

So you're saying that people will go to heaven without believing. Thanks. Then your purpose on this site has been fulfilled. You have enlightened us that we don't need Jesus to go to Heaven.

[SkepticOfBible]

Sheol is OT hebrew for the pit/grave. He gets is anguish theology from the whole stupid Jesus analogy of Lazarus and the rich/poor man. You see the nasty rich dude needs his thirst quench and the poor dude looks down and basically says "too bad" you had your chance...no water for you.

 

Yeah, many christian use that example to show that Hell is meant to be taken literally, eg that CARM website.

 

But nevertheless, my point was that the unbelief in JC as their saviour, would send Jews to hell. That is quite clear in the bible

[Caretaker]

WARNING

 

 

You know what I'm talking about

[NotBlinded]

Theologically speaking, if God exists he can do whatever he wants.

 

Don't like it?

 

Tough shit.

Exactly right, if God (or more accurately your God) exists.

 

But you see, your God does not exist... it's the wrong one... my God, the Big Flurry Cute Bunny, that does exist, hates your guts, so you'll be punished for eternity for all your ugly comments all the time... well, don't like it, tough shit Goldie!

 

*edit*

 

And by the way, if God can do whatever he wants, then he can allow EVERYONE into heaven, and just don't give a shit if we believe or not. And he would make the whole Hell issue moot and void, against your wishes Goldie. Isn't that nice. God could undo Hell, and you would have to see our ugly faces in Heaven for eternity...

You know, sometimes I feel sorry for God with people like Goldy around building a shitty image around their 'idea' of what God is when it leads to this sort of understanding. I would never do that to the Big Flurry (not Furry?) Cute Bunny! Flurry would lead to an understanding that this Bunny is in some sort of turmoil.

[Ouroboros]

Ooops! Flurry... isn't that some drink at DQ or whatnot? Aye sprell layk a moneky. (And look like one too.)

[Dark Helmet]

“People that used their brains that this supposed God gave them, and use reason instead of blind faith, will be punished for it.”

 

 

This, of course, is another declaration of the glorious clarity of evolutionary religion.

 

Here’s how people who believe in it use their brains:

 

They believe that the components of the DNA molecule somehow formed by natural means. They also believe that all the ultra-complex enzymes which facilitate DNA replication also randomly assembled themselves.

 

One of these enzymes proof-reads the duplicated molecule and corrects errors with astonishing effectiveness and accuracy. After this check and repair function is complete, the error rate is one in one billion.

 

This is a nightmare for evolutionary theory. If random evolutionary events were responsible for the production of self-replicating DNA, these processes made a very counter-evolutionary move in tucking the fix enzymes into the process. Their explicit role is to prevent mutations. No mutations, no evolution.

 

In other words, evolution designed mechanisms to prevent evolution. Error-destroying ninja enzymes.

 

But then this is just one isolated problem. How did the molecule itself originate? We’re talking three billion base pairs in humans. How did the enzymes originate? These are phenomenally complex proteins. How do they do what they do to the nucleotides? How do enzymes recognize errors? Are they smart?

 

Don’t kid yourself about faith. Yours is planet-sized and blind as a turnip, with which you share common ancestry, according to your religion.

 

Time makes wonders you know. I have an analogy for you : lets say the first christian looked upon the grand canyon and wondered "This thing is huge! How could one little river make so big a hole in the Earth? It's impossible! So there must be a Holy Excavator that has dug this trench and put the river at the bottom to water the animals that live down there. Glory to GAWWWD!". The answer of course is that the river has been digging for a few hundred millions years so that now it's a few miles down in the Earth. Now it's the same with evolution, apply mutation and selection for billions of years and you'll be surprised at what can come out of it.

 

As for how it all works I suggest you take some biochemistry classes, or at least an introductory class to modern biology. Education is the answer to ignorance and misunderstanding.

[I Broke Free]

The grass is greener where you water it.

 

 

At least in my backyard the grass is always greener over the septic tank.

[Dark Helmet]

I hope you don't grow your vegetable over that... I'm not sure if I could eat something that has just grown out of my crap. It would feel like cannibalism

[Mr. Neil]

Theologically speaking, if God exists he can do whatever he wants.

 

Don't like it?

 

Tough shit.

Exactly right, if God (or more accurately your God) exists.

 

But you see, your God does not exist... it's the wrong one... my God, the Big Flurry Cute Bunny, that does exist, hates your guts, so you'll be punished for eternity for all your ugly comments all the time... well, don't like it, tough shit Goldie!

Nice way of pointing out the circularity of Goldy's statement. Long time; no see, Goldy. I see your contemptuous arguments still suck.

 

Basically, you're saying that if the magical sky fairy that can do anything exists, then he can do anything. It's like saying that the reason my invisible gas-based friend can't be detected is because he's invisible and made of gas.

 

Question: Do you ever get whiplash from the loopedy-loopedy-loop of your circular logic?

[Ouroboros]

I just love that "God can do anything" argument, since it means that God can make Christians go to Hell and all non-christians go to Heaven.

 

If they argue that it would be against his holy words in the Bible, well then NT is the proof that God can change his mind and withhold the knowledge of the true salvation, since he changed the rules from OT to NT. Who says it won't do it again, or that the NT was just a precursor to the SuperNewTestament where you go to Heaven only if you DON'T believe in Jesus. Who knows? God can do anything, can't he?

[Foxy Methoxy]

Ah! A Chick tract with a happy ending. The man goes from being a greaseball biker to a God fearing man. My heart is filled with blood.

 

I hate Jack Chick. What a fucking jackbag.