Apologists

[Guest Ratioann]

<---I got a fishy now, groovy <")))><

 

W00T... Fresh meat...

 

Just kidding 

Welcome to the forums, both of you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you much

I'll try my best not to be stringy or fattening. ><)))"< ><>

 

Actually, I think they follow the bible pretty well. I've read the bible and its full of hate, violence, deception and flat out lies. A "loving" god who sends a vast majority of the all the people who have ever lived on this Earth to suffer in Hell for eternity? A god who upholds the institution of slavery(slavery is and always has been Evil). A god who orders the murder of women and children. A god who acts out violence from frustration. All I've ever heard from xtians most of my life was how "loving" god & jesus are. No xtians ever told me about all the terrible atrocities in the bible. No wonder there are so many xtian "appoligists". You've got to do something if you believe in this hate filled doomsday death cult.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yikes! If God were just a human person and nothing else, he could certainly be seen as evil. He kills those that break his rules, while maintaining that he cares for us. But He is not a human, it's His world & He decides what is right & He does what He pleases. That's how it is. He is sovereign. I would tell you HE loves you and cares about you, but I get the destinct impression you don't care and it wouldn't do any good. So, I tell you...tough, too bad, deal with it. We're pawns, not the King.

[Caretaker]

I would tell you HE loves you and cares about you, but I get the destinct impression you don't care and it wouldn't do any good. So, I tell you...tough, too bad, deal with it. We're pawns, not the King.

 

You are probably right. There are some things to keep in mind here: Some of us here have walked the walk, so you should be aware that those of us who have been into Christianity before know many of the arguments.

 

Also, some of us are atheist and agnostic, meaning that we are unconvinced that God, Heaven, Satan, and Hell exist, and at the very least, that if Jesus existed, then not in the way depicted in the Bible. One of the more defining traits among us here, with of course the exception of our Christian guests, are not convinced that the Bible is true. So basically, telling us that God loves us would be very much like me telling you that the Easter Bunny loves you. I, of course, am a Mathematics Education Major here at Central, and one of the golden rules of trying to convince someone of something is you can't make them assume your assertion is true.

 

I admit, it is probably extremely difficult if not possible to prove the Bible, but if someone presents an argument that the Bible is true without assuming any part of the Bible is true, I'll listen.

[Vixentrox]

<---I got a fishy now, groovy  <")))><

Thank you much

I'll try my best not to be stringy or fattening.  ><)))"< ><>

Yikes! If God were just a human person and nothing else, he could certainly be seen as evil. He kills those that break his rules, while maintaining that he cares for us. But He is not a human, it's His world & He decides what is right & He does what He pleases. That's how it is. He is sovereign. I would tell you HE loves you and cares about you, but I get the destinct impression you don't care and it wouldn't do any good. So, I tell you...tough, too bad, deal with it. We're pawns, not the King.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And you worship that piece of demonic shit? Despite his propensity for turture, death, murder and the like? Every human issue, disease, disaster, problem is laid squarely at your gods feet and you STILL think he's a god of love? And don't EVEN try blaming Satan since your god created evil (said so himself) and he created Satan.

[white_raven23]

Yikes! If God were just a human person and nothing else, he could certainly be seen as evil. He kills those that break his rules, while maintaining that he cares for us. But He is not a human, it's His world & He decides what is right & He does what He pleases. That's how it is. He is sovereign.

 

Only according to a BWB (badly written book). There is no real evidence how much direct contact any deity has with our world.

 

I would tell you HE loves you and cares about you, but I get the destinct impression you don't care and it wouldn't do any good. So, I tell you...tough, too bad, deal with it. We're pawns, not the King.

 

Now that's just catty.

 

But kinda amusing to see someone turn their nose in the air in 2 sentences, and then embrace humility in the third sentence.

 

And I doubt any truly wise god would possess the brazen ego you are bestowing on it.

 

Humans have ego and pride. How can you say God isn't human, and then turn around and project human ego and pride onto such a being?

 

And don't go all "God made us in his image", and turn around declaring him to be perfect and righteous. Can't have it both ways.

[Guest Ratioann]

You are probably right. There are some things to keep in mind here: Some of us here have walked the walk, so you should be aware that those of us who have been into Christianity before know many of the arguments.

 

Also, some of us are atheist and agnostic, meaning that we are unconvinced that God, Heaven, Satan, and Hell exist, and at the very least, that if Jesus existed, then not in the way depicted in the Bible. One of the more defining traits among us here, with of course the exception of our Christian guests, are not convinced that the Bible is true. So basically, telling us that God loves us would be very much like me telling you that the Easter Bunny loves you. I, of course, am a Mathematics Education Major here at Central, and one of the golden rules of trying to convince someone of something is you can't make them assume your assertion is true.

 

I admit, it is probably extremely difficult if not possible to prove the Bible, but if someone presents an argument that the Bible is true without assuming any part of the Bible is true, I'll listen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I understand that the agnostics and athests here are a mixed bag. No doubt the experiences many of you have had totally ruined your perception of Christianity and other religions.

It will be very hard for me to prove the bible is true, without assuming it is true from the start. It twists my brain..

 

And you worship that piece of demonic shit?  Despite his propensity for turture, death, murder and the like?  Every human issue, disease, disaster, problem is laid squarely at your gods feet and you STILL think he's a god of love?  And don't EVEN try blaming Satan since your god created evil (said so himself) and he created Satan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm depraved, the world sucks, & God allowed it to be this way for a reason. He says there is a way out. I believe Him. I actually DON'T think he has done all that "bad" stuff just to be bad, there is a point to it all.

 

Only according to a BWB (badly written book). There is no real evidence how much direct contact any deity has with our world.

Now that's just catty.

 

But kinda amusing to see someone turn their nose in the air in 2 sentences, and then embrace humility in the third sentence.

 

And I doubt any truly wise god would possess the brazen ego you are bestowing on it.

 

Humans have ego and pride. How can you say God isn't human, and then turn around and project human ego and pride onto such a being?

 

And don't go all "God made us in his image", and turn around declaring him to be perfect and righteous. Can't have it both ways.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if God to say that he is charge and do anything, it wouldn't be ego, it would be correct. I got the impression that you both were also putting human traits on God. He isn't prone to fits of rage and envy in the way we are. He doesn't kill people just because he can.

 

I'm sorry if I came off with a bit of attitude, but I don't know how else to talk about it when I'm faced with such different views. Good gravy, I have never heard him reffered to in the terms you used above. Y'all are freakin' me out.

 

For the record, I don't like it when Christians say that "God is Love," and never say anything else, it doesn't mean anything. So, I like to give the opposite, in an attempt to balance it out. Really, I think righteousness and judgement should be talked about with love and grace, but no one's perfect.

[Guest Heavenly Deceit]

Yikes! If God were just a human person and nothing else, he could certainly be seen as evil. He kills those that break his rules, while maintaining that he cares for us. But He is not a human, it's His world & He decides what is right & He does what He pleases. That's how it is. He is sovereign. I would tell you HE loves you and cares about you, but I get the destinct impression you don't care and it wouldn't do any good. So, I tell you...tough, too bad, deal with it. We're pawns, not the King.

 

In other words hes a tyrant.

Good is pretty much a worthless definition for this god as he obviously re-defines good to his choosing, rather than measuring up to a standard.

[Guest Heavenly Deceit]

Well, if God to say that he is charge and do anything, it wouldn't be ego, it would be correct. I got the impression that you both were also putting human traits on God. He isn't prone to fits of rage and envy in the way we are. He doesn't kill people just because he can.

Ofcourse not, he just kills people to teach others a lesson, or if they've been bad.

[Guest Ratioann]

In other words hes a tyrant.

Good is pretty much a worthless definition for this god as he obviously re-defines good to his choosing, rather than measuring up to a standard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who would be making the standard?

[white_raven23]

I'm sorry if I came off with a bit of attitude, but I don't know how else to talk about it when I'm faced with such different views. Good gravy, I have never heard him reffered to in the terms you used above. Y'all are freakin' me out.

 

 

 

It's okay Ratioann. There are a LOT of different points of view here. The one thing just about all of us have in common are.....We started out Christians, found it lacking what we needed to continue believing, and we've each found our own course that gives us fulfillment (spiritual or emotional depending on the individuals need).

 

From my point of view, I don't believe in religion at all. Any religion. Not a one has any real answers or is capable of giving real answers. All the books (Koran, Torah, Bible) are just collected stories that depend on the tellers interpretation of nature and it's events prior to the modern age and scientific understanding. Also in these books are philisophical essays regarding the author's opinion regarding a higher power and how it relates to our world.

 

As to god, I'm comfortable with the idea that I just flat don't know. I'm willing to accept there is god, but I don't pretend to know it's nature, it's intentions, or even how much involvement it has with us. I just don't know.

 

I'm a lot happier with this feeling of god that I had when I believed in BibleGod. For one thing, BibleGod is LIMITED by our understanding of the Bible.

 

To illustrate, once people absolutely insisted upon burial when they died. Creamation was considered heathen and horrible because it was thought to negate the whole God bringing the dead back to life on judgement day.

Corpses were crammed and piled into squalid cemetaries. Sevices were held in churches full of people swooning from the reek coming from the graveyard right outside.

 

This happened because people had limited God. After all, that's supposed to be GOD after all. The concept that God was capable of reconsitituting the body from ash on judgement day didn't even enter their minds. A sanitary nightmare was the result.

 

When I ditched Biblegod, and pretty much started from scratch, I was stunned by the sense of magnitude I felt trying to conceptualize god without "guidance". I stopped right there. I knew that was going to be as close as I could realistically get without tainting the view by trying to define it further.

 

So I am a Diest. I believe there is "something" and it is likely responsible for the science of the universe's existence and evolution.

But beyond that, anyone who "claims" to understand god and or have the answers to the ultimate question is merely trying to get listeners to agree and adhere to the same opinion.

[Guest Heavenly Deceit]

Who would be making the standard?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No one. Good is usually a synonym of beneficial, its independent of any deity.

[LloydDobler]

I understand that the agnostics and athests here are a mixed bag. No doubt the experiences many of you have had totally ruined your perception of Christianity and other religions.

Actually, these experiences perfected our perception of Christianity with shocking clarity.

He doesn't kill people just because he can.

Tell that to Job or Pharoah or the Philistines, or perhaps the entire population of the world in the time of Noah. Something about clay and a potter comes to mind....

 

For the record, I don't like it when Christians say that "God is Love," and never say anything else, it doesn't mean anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true. Good observation. There is hope for you yet.

[Vixentrox]

Who would be making the standard?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What? Not capable of judging what is generally good or evil on your own? You do have a brain I assume and some sort of ethics and morals?

[Vixentrox]

I'm depraved, the world sucks, & God allowed it to be this way for a reason. He says there is a way out. I believe Him. I actually DON'T think he has done all that "bad" stuff just to be bad, there is a point to it all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Stalin, Hitler, Khemer Rogue and most other tyrant/s, criminal, murder, rapist, ect in existance did thier crimes for a reason. Does it excuse them or make them right just becuase in thier twisted version of things they are doing the right thing?

[chefranden]

I actually agree with this.  What's happening is, alot is them are listening to others instead of following the Bible.  They feel like they must follow a person instead of God.

(oh goodness, did I just go into the Debating section )

 

Welcome to the board.

 

I'm sure you realize that this is a common sort of statement among Christians about other Christians. You of course are following the bible (whatever that means) as they are not. Now if I go over to their house (whoever they may be) it will turn out they are following the bible and you are not.

 

Do you follow me?

[chefranden]

<---I got a fishy now, groovy  <")))><

Thank you much

I'll try my best not to be stringy or fattening.  ><)))"< ><>

Yikes! If God were just a human person and nothing else, he could certainly be seen as evil. He kills those that break his rules, while maintaining that he cares for us. But He is not a human, it's His world & He decides what is right & He does what He pleases. That's how it is. He is sovereign. I would tell you HE loves you and cares about you, but I get the destinct impression you don't care and it wouldn't do any good. So, I tell you...tough, too bad, deal with it. We're pawns, not the King.

 

So in your God's case morality is abitrary. God doesn't do a thing because it is good, a thing is good because God does it. I don't care to be loved by the Great and Powerful Mafia Don in the Sky, if it existed, which it does not.

 

As a child of God when you grow up to be a God do you get to throw morality out the window too?

[Asimov]

<---I got a fishy now, groovy  <")))><

Thank you much

I'll try my best not to be stringy or fattening.  ><)))"< ><>

Yikes! If God were just a human person and nothing else, he could certainly be seen as evil. He kills those that break his rules, while maintaining that he cares for us. But He is not a human, it's His world & He decides what is right & He does what He pleases. That's how it is. He is sovereign. I would tell you HE loves you and cares about you, but I get the destinct impression you don't care and it wouldn't do any good. So, I tell you...tough, too bad, deal with it. We're pawns, not the King.

 

How can anyone claim that God's morality is objective?? This is so stupid. If God creates things and does whatever he wants, he's no better than any one of us.

[Mr. Neil]

No one. Good is usually a synonym of beneficial, its independent of any deity.

What I'll never understand is why Christians have such a terrible time understanding this. It's really not that difficult. When I meet someone who argues as if good can't be defined without an authoritarian magic person declaring the difference between good and evil, as though these can be confined within the context of a rule, I just shake my head. I can't believe that people would think that good actions have to be defined before they can be considered moral or immoral. Rather, it's the effect of an action which defines its context in morality.

 

I have difficulty restraining my temptation to revert to being an elitist snob by just saying, "We atheists, agnostics, and non-believers and such... we're better than you. We can figure these things out. We don't need to be told what is good. We have empathy. We can tell when an action hurts someone else."

 

What is the difficulty here?

[Panther]

I am having trouble understanding why christians think they have to be told what morals are as well.....you don't have to read the bible or any other book to KNOW inside what is right and what is wrong.

[Panther]

Awesome post Kryten!!

[crazy-tiger]

I have difficulty restraining my temptation to revert to being an elitist snob by just saying, "We atheists, agnostics, and non-believers and such... we're better than you.  We can figure these things out.  We don't need to be told what is good.  We have empathy.  We can tell when an action hurts someone else."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't...

 

If they're gonna go around saying their better than others because their book tells them to be good, than I'm gonna rub their faces in the fact that we don't need to be told to be good.

 

 

To be honest, I've had enough of that "better than you" attitude and it's time they were brought back down to earth.

[Midnight]

W00T... Fresh meat...

 

Just kidding 

Welcome to the forums, both of you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you!!

[Vixentrox]

BTW, if you turn the jesus fish on it's side you have a vagina, which was a common fertility symbol.

[zfunkman]

It's okay Ratioann. There are a LOT of different points of view here. The one thing just about all of us have in common are.....We started out Christians, found it lacking what we needed to continue believing, and we've each found our own course that gives us fulfillment (spiritual or emotional depending on the individuals need).

 

From my point of view, I don't believe in religion at all. Any religion. Not a one has any real answers or is capable of giving real answers. All the books (Koran, Torah, Bible) are just collected stories that depend on the tellers interpretation of nature and it's events prior to the modern age and scientific understanding. Also in these books are philisophical essays regarding the author's opinion regarding a higher power and how it relates to our world.

 

As to god, I'm comfortable with the idea that I just flat don't know. I'm willing to accept there is god, but I don't pretend to know it's nature, it's intentions, or even how much involvement it has with us. I just don't know.

 

I'm a lot happier with this feeling of god that I had when I believed in BibleGod. For one thing, BibleGod is LIMITED by our understanding of the Bible.

 

To illustrate, once people absolutely insisted upon burial when they died. Creamation was considered heathen and horrible because it was thought to negate the whole God bringing the dead back to life on judgement day.

Corpses were crammed and piled into squalid cemetaries. Sevices were held in churches full of people swooning from the reek coming from the graveyard right outside.

 

This happened because people had limited God. After all, that's supposed to be GOD after all. The concept that God was capable of reconsitituting the body from ash on judgement day didn't even enter their minds. A sanitary nightmare was the result.

 

When I ditched Biblegod, and pretty much started from scratch, I was stunned by the sense of magnitude I felt trying to conceptualize god without "guidance". I stopped right there. I knew that was going to be as close as I could realistically get without tainting the view by trying to define it further.

 

So I am a Diest. I believe there is "something" and it is likely responsible for the science of the universe's existence and evolution.

But beyond that, anyone who "claims" to understand god and or have the answers to the ultimate question is merely trying to get listeners to agree and adhere to the same opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent reply. I can't agree with you more.

[dustmouse]

BTW, if you turn the jesus fish on it's side you have a vagina, which was a common fertility symbol.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Alright now... we should all shoot the resident anthropologist who never even looked at it in that light!

[SOIL]

I realize I'm stating the obvious but the quality of the typical visiting apologist that we often have to endure here is not what I'd hoped for either. It's what I'm beginning to expect Christianity is turning out these days, the shallow or empty-headed non-thinker.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reach,

 

Actually, that is one of the reasons I mentioned I am appreciative about the removal of the 'f' word from the title of one of the recently active threads here.

 

Why would anyone expect to be able to attract much in the way of "quality" apologists - at a site which sports such (original) titles in threads located in a "Debating with Christians" type of discussion forum?

 

... e.g. I wouldn't expect to find "quality" atheist thinkers actively seeking out threads titled in a similar fashion (where the 'f' word is used as an adjective prior to 'atheist' .... or would I)?

 

 

-Dennis

 

P.S.

 

So, maybe you folks may need to learn to just be content with relatively uneducated wanna be types of "apologists" like myself, for instance.

 

<late edit : However, as I have mentioned before - my type of wanna be apologist - has served your causes very well (..... as a strawman, that is)>