A Question For Ironhorse

[moanareina]

moanareina,  A good question. "...why spread the message..?"

 

Faith in Jesus is not just about the afterlife but about life now.

Jesus said he came that we might have life more abundantly...

...peace, less worries, less fear, joy in all we do, helping others,

kind deeds, kind words...a few things. 

 

 

Fernweh, Do I believe the words in bold? Yes.

 

If I came to bridge and it was the only way to cross a river and the bridge had a name

but I didn't know it,  could I still cross the bridge?

 

And that exactly is what I have been told and believed for many years...but...when I looked around I saw so many people having a happier life then us and I always wondered why. My assumption was, they where just faking and if you really knew how they where, they would admit that they felt this deep emptiness...

 

Now being out of it for a few years I can assure you, they are not faking it and they have less emptiness than most christians because they don't have all that guilt and sin stuff shoved down their throats...they just live their lives and take the days as they come and help others as they can. Actually I have read articles of places where people where a lot happier before missionaries came and spread their so called good news.

 

I can also tell you that my life is a lot more joyful then it was when I still believed in Jesus and all that comes with it. Even though I battle with an on and off depression...actually I dealt with it all my life and Jesus did not a bit to help me out of it, the contrary. I feel way much better now because I don't need to feel bad and guilty for being depressed once in a while...I can let it happen and know it is not who I am, it is just some emotion and it will pass. No demons, no sin, no attitude, nothing to battle...

 

And please stop talking to me as if I was some stupid little kid. I do know the stock answers to those questions. You need to come up with something more intelligent than that. And I don't mean to be rude here, just want to make clear that I have been a christian for about 25 years.

[RipVanWinkle]

"I have a great life. I wake up every morning ready for the day to begin."

Ironhorse

 

So do most 3 year olds. Ignorance is bliss.   bill

 

 

[duderonomy]

"I have a great life. I wake up every morning ready for the day to begin."

Ironhorse

 

So do most 3 year olds. Ignorance is bliss.   bill

Crap. I'm 57 and I wake up every morning ready for the day to begin. I'm always glad when it does. Am I ignorant too?

[ironhorse]

par4dcourse

 

Who observed Abraham acting on faith? I don't know if a person did.

 

Who heard Jesus speak John 3:16 and captured the event on papyrus? John and other people.

 

"Most of your scripture is hearsay handed down verbally and written by unknown authors decades or

centuries later."

 

Jewish people listening to a rabbi were taught to memorize his teachings. The writers of the

N.T. are known. The disciples did not immediately write about Jesus because they were expecting

his return soon. They were busy spreading the news. Not centuries but decades.

 

"Doesn't like much to base your life on."

 

 

If the story of Jesus' resurrection was a lie, why did the Jewish religious leaders not

write to call it a lie. Why the silence? Why would the disciples spread a message

so rebellious that they were all killed except John? The Roman Empire did not

mind people having as many gods as they wished. What landed the Christians in trouble was

their refusal to bow before Rome. They were killed by the thousands. To believe they

suffered and died for a fabricated story doesn't ring true.

 

Sounds like everything to base your life on.

[Vigile]

 

duderonomy,

 

"What about the billions who haven't had a chance to hear about Jesus?"

 

In Romans 1 Paul states that people will be judge according to the light they have.

 

Jesus is the door...the only way to salvation.

Many in the Old Testament were saved by their faith...they lived centuries

before Jesus. They passed through the door (Jesus) and saved by grace.

 

The people who never heard about Jesus will be judged fairly according

to the light they knew and their hearts.

 

I live in an area where a large American

Indian tribe lived. We find arrow heads and pottery fragments ever so often.

They were a great and noble people. I am confident that God will take care

of them.

 

 

So if people will be judged by the light they had, why do christians think it is a good thing to spread their message?

I mean, they would do all the world a great favor by keeping it all to themselves because that way, everyone who had never heard of Jesus and all would be on the safe side. So why do christians think it would be necessary to go to the most remote areas of this world to bring the message of their Jesus to everyone?

A question that bugged me from early childhood on actually...

 

 

Likewise, why is abortion so bad?  Weren't the Spaniards who baptized Aztec babies and then dashed them against the rocks ultimately engaged in altruism when viewed through the logical paradigm of the xian belief system? 

 

[Vigile]

moanareina,  A good question. "...why spread the message..?"

 

Faith in Jesus is not just about the afterlife but about life now.

Jesus said he came that we might have life more abundantly...

...peace, less worries, less fear, joy in all we do, helping others,

kind deeds, kind words...a few things.

 

This is nonsense.  If an afterlife actually exists and it turns on what we believe in this life, then the afterlife is the only thing that matters irregardless of what Jesus may or may not have said/meant. 

[moanareina]

If the story of Jesus' resurrection was a lie, why did the Jewish religious leaders not

write to call it a lie. Why the silence? Why would the disciples spread a message

so rebellious that they were all killed except John? The Roman Empire did not

mind people having as many gods as they wished. What landed the Christians in trouble was

their refusal to bow before Rome. They were killed by the thousands. To believe they

suffered and died for a fabricated story doesn't ring true.

 

Sounds like everything to base your life on.

 

Well, first it is questionable if all this actually happened. 

 

Then you actually answer your own question about why the romans would have killed those Christians (highlighted in bold font and purple color)...so it could simply be that they thought they had found a way to disobey...

 

And third, your argument about people not willing to die for something that was a lie is one of those christian stock answers too. Just think of it. Of course you probably won't die for something you KNOW is a lie. Now what if you convinced yourself to a point where you actually believe and therefore take it for the truth? Just think about those suicide bombers who believe they would end up in paradise with seven virgins serving them if they blew themselves up in order to fight God's enemies and therefore die as martyrs. Either they die despite knowing that it is all BS or they actually believe and thus don't know it is a lie. You ever thought of that?

[mymistake]

par4dcourse

 

Who observed Abraham acting on faith? I don't know if a person did.

 

Who heard Jesus speak John 3:16 and captured the event on papyrus? John and other people.

 

"Most of your scripture is hearsay handed down verbally and written by unknown authors decades or

centuries later."

 

Jewish people listening to a rabbi were taught to memorize his teachings. The writers of the

N.T. are known. The disciples did not immediately write about Jesus because they were expecting

his return soon. They were busy spreading the news. Not centuries but decades.

 

"Doesn't like much to base your life on."

 

 

If the story of Jesus' resurrection was a lie, why did the Jewish religious leaders not

write to call it a lie. Why the silence? Why would the disciples spread a message

so rebellious that they were all killed except John? The Roman Empire did not

mind people having as many gods as they wished. What landed the Christians in trouble was

their refusal to bow before Rome. They were killed by the thousands. To believe they

suffered and died for a fabricated story doesn't ring true.

 

Sounds like everything to base your life on.

 

 

The Jewish religious leaders do consider it a lie.  Hello?  They are not Christian.  The 12 disciples of Jesus are myth.  They never existed.  They were not martyred because they never lived.  Christians were persecuted briefly under Nero simply because Nero was bizarrely insane.  It doesn't make the beliefs of those Christians true and those Christians from Nero's time would have considered modern Christians to be false.  Remember that Rome took over Christianity a short time after that and they burned any document and executed anybody who questioned their legitimacy.

 

Abraham is also a myth.  The scriptures say he was saved by his faith because he was willing to murder his own son because the voice in his head told him to do it.  That is crazy.  People who would do that should be locked up, either prison or a psych ward, but they should be locked up to protect the public.

[midniterider]

"Doesn't like much to base your life on."

 

 

If the story of Jesus' resurrection was a lie, why did the Jewish religious leaders not

write to call it a lie. Why the silence? Why would the disciples spread a message

so rebellious that they were all killed except John? The Roman Empire did not

mind people having as many gods as they wished. What landed the Christians in trouble was

their refusal to bow before Rome. They were killed by the thousands. To believe they

suffered and died for a fabricated story doesn't ring true.

 

Sounds like everything to base your life on.

 

Base your life on a 2000 year old story? lol.

 

If the story of Batman isn't true, why wouldn't Commissioner Gordon of Gotham City tell us this?

 

We can't use fictional characters or fictional accounts to show veracity of other fictional characters or fictional accounts. The disciples did whatever their authors said they did. It was fiction. :-)

[MerryG]

If the story of Jesus' resurrection was a lie, why did the Jewish religious leaders not

write to call it a lie. Why the silence? Why would the disciples spread a message

so rebellious that they were all killed except John? The Roman Empire did not

mind people having as many gods as they wished. What landed the Christians in trouble was

their refusal to bow before Rome. They were killed by the thousands. To believe they

suffered and died for a fabricated story doesn't ring true.

 

Millions of people throughout history have died (and do die) for lies.

 

In every war ever fought, both sides believe they're fighting in a holy cause. You want to tell me that every, single one of those poor suckers has been correct in his or her beliefs?

[RipVanWinkle]

How could Xtians have killed thousands upon thousands of people, including Jews  and Orthodox Xtioans, Muslims, "heretics", witches and others, for over 1,000 years if Jesus was the son of god and god had supernatural powers to have stopped that in its tracks in numerous ways. Instead, their way of "doing god's work was  was through immense cruelty as their supernatural deity simply watched without even telling the Pope or other heads of the Church that they were on the wrong path for a thousand years? How could a really good god allow  that to happen? How did that spread the true Xtianity?   bill

[mymistake]

How could Xtians have killed thousands upon thousands of people, including Jews  and Orthodox Xtioans, Muslims, "heretics", witches and others, for over 1,000 years if Jesus was the son of god and god had supernatural powers to have stopped that in its tracks in numerous ways. Instead, their way of "doing god's work was  was through immense cruelty as their supernatural deity simply watched without even telling the Pope or other heads of the Church that they were on the wrong path for a thousand years? How could a really good god allow  that to happen? How did that spread the true Xtianity?   bill

 

The same way God sat around and watched while Catholic (and other Christian) priests molested all those children right in the church buildings.  It's almost as if God is imaginary.

[Aggie]

It's interesting to look up the stories about what supposedly happened to the twelve disciples.  The stories often have a definitive legendary character and there are often conflicting accounts of when/where/how supposed disciples died.  

 

My take would be that the "12 disciples" were probably developed after the fact to match with the idea of the 12 tribes of Israel.  I think that this also accounts for some of the name discrepancies in the Gospels as well.  This leads us to what seems to me to be the common problem of Christian origins-- how do we separate fact from myth when the evidence is such that it seems honesty requires doubt?

 

I think Bill's point is a powerful one too.  Some things that very devout and "holy" Protestants and Catholics were doing for centuries is now considered evil and a source of embarassment-- slaveholding, torture, the execution of witches and heretics, stern corporal punishment for children, etc.  Why would the Holy Spirit not have clued believers in to the fact that they were committing heinous sins when these folks were so intent on following God's will?  Likewise, why would matters like birth control, so widely considered evil by Protestants and Catholics alike before 1930 or so, be a matter of indifference now (except to conservative Catholics)?  

 

If people claiming to be led Holy Spirit can be confused about slavery, persecution and the like, why should they be trusted about the Trinity, the Atonement, heaven, hell, and the rest?

[ironhorse]

"If people claiming to be led Holy Spirit can be confused about slavery, persecution and the like, why should they be trusted about the Trinity, the Atonement, heaven, hell, and the rest?" ~Aggie

 

Jesus said that many will claim to follow him and do great deeds and wonders.

He said he never knew knew them.

 

A person may claim to be Christian but not be one.

The New Testament has dozens of warnings of false believers, false teachers and antichrists.

[mymistake]

"If people claiming to be led Holy Spirit can be confused about slavery, persecution and the like, why should they be trusted about the Trinity, the Atonement, heaven, hell, and the rest?" ~Aggie

 

Jesus said that many will claim to follow him and do great deeds and wonders.

He said he never knew knew them.

 

A person may claim to be Christian but not be one.

The New Testament has dozens of warnings of false believers, false teachers and antichrists.

 

That is because early Christian sects hated each other.

 

 

 

If somebody lies about being a Christian when they are not usually it's because they are afraid of what the Christians would do if they knew the truth.  As for Christians believing each other's sect or denominations are false - that is just silly Christian infighting.  Even the Mormons are Christians.  Yes they are real Christians.  Christianity is much bigger than one little sect that would like to pretend it is the only real one.

[ironhorse]

The doctrines of the Latter Day Saints are not accepted as orthodox Christianity.

Major error is their denial of the full deity of Christ.

 

 

It's not what I think or believe on my own......it's what the scriptures teach that is the standard. 

[mymistake]

The doctrines of the Latter Day Saints are not accepted as orthodox Christianity.

Major error is their denial of the full deity of Christ.

 

 

It's not what I think or believe on my own......it's what the scriptures teach that is the standard. 

 

Just like James or Paul would reject you as a false Christian.  Never the less Christianity is bigger then even the orthodox sect.

 

You are wrong about the standard.  There is no standard Christian except that they claim to follow Christ.

 

Denying the deity of Christ isn't an error, nor is denying the existence of Christ.  Being right isn't an error.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"If people claiming to be led Holy Spirit can be confused about slavery, persecution and the like, why should they be trusted about the Trinity, the Atonement, heaven, hell, and the rest?" ~Aggie

 

Jesus said that many will claim to follow him and do great deeds and wonders.

He said he never knew knew them.

 

A person may claim to be Christian but not be one.

The New Testament has dozens of warnings of false believers, false teachers and antichrists.

How, then, can we trust anything you say?  Or anything written by Paul, Luke, Matthew or any of the others?

[sdelsolray]

"If people claiming to be led Holy Spirit can be confused about slavery, persecution and the like, why should they be trusted about the Trinity, the Atonement, heaven, hell, and the rest?" ~Aggie

 

Jesus said that many will claim to follow him and do great deeds and wonders.

He said he never knew knew them.

 

A person may claim to be Christian but not be one.

The New Testament has dozens of warnings of false believers, false teachers and antichrists.

Ah yes, the "You're Not a True Christian™" assertion.

[sdelsolray]

…

It's not what I think or believe on my own......it's what the scriptures teach that is the standard. 

And yet you continue to post what you believe.

 

I for one, and I suspect that most (if not all) of the others here on this forum, really don't care what your "believe".

 

Moreover, I for one, and I suspect that most (if not all) of the others here on this forum, don't care one bit that you base your beliefs and mere assertions on the Bible.

 

You are not a rational thinker.  You are addicted to your particular religious faith.

 

No one here cares about your particular religious faith.  It is meaningless.  

[moanareina]

"If people claiming to be led Holy Spirit can be confused about slavery, persecution and the like, why should they be trusted about the Trinity, the Atonement, heaven, hell, and the rest?" ~Aggie

 

Jesus said that many will claim to follow him and do great deeds and wonders.

He said he never knew knew them.

 

A person may claim to be Christian but not be one.

The New Testament has dozens of warnings of false believers, false teachers and antichrists.

 

Yeah and you think you can say what that even means? I mean maybe if Jesus is real, he will be like: Oh Ironhorse...let me see. Um, sorry, never heard of him.

I don't think that there are many who call Jesus lord and pray to him and consciously lie about it all. At least not where I am living. Being a christian here is a straight road to get bullied and excluded and made fun of. Why would anyone be a fake christian by choice? You need to be convinced of what you believe because otherwise you won't take the bullying and all. I know because I have experienced it. You have to be mental or deeply evil to do so.

 

So for me there are two scenarios of that scripture. Either if Jesus is real it is meant: You have totally misunderstood what I was talking about. You are praying and calling me lord, but what I see is, that you only do it because you have a concept of me and you don't want to go to hell. Thats not what I thought. I wanted you as you are with no pretenses. When I left the church, that was a very deep thought because I could see how much of it all was not at all biblical and not at all christ like. There is a really good book I would recommend you to read if you don't have already. Its called: Pagan Christianity? By George Barna and Frank Viola. And no fear, they both are chrisians or where when writing that book. It shows tons of misunderstandings modern christians have about church and the so called body of christ. It is interesting.

 

The other scenario I can think of would be: The author(s) of that scary book just needed another verse to scare people and making them see a fake christian whenever there is someone hurting them. Whenever they get an idea that maybe this religion is weird...you can pull that card.

[♦ ficino ♦]

" Being a christian here is a straight road to get bullied and excluded and made fun of. Why would anyone be a fake christian by choice?

Wow, Moanareina, where are you? - if you feel like saying so. Lots of people seem to live in places where NOT being a Christian leads to bullying, exclusion and being made to feel shunned or otherwise out of it - or even to suffer financial consequences.

[Aggie]

"If people claiming to be led Holy Spirit can be confused about slavery, persecution and the like, why should they be trusted about the Trinity, the Atonement, heaven, hell, and the rest?" ~Aggie

 

Jesus said that many will claim to follow him and do great deeds and wonders.

He said he never knew knew them.

 

A person may claim to be Christian but not be one.

The New Testament has dozens of warnings of false believers, false teachers and antichrists.

 

But my point is that saints of the faith have approved of these things-- Roman Catholic canonized saints, Eastern Orthodox saints.  The early church fathers spoke in support of slavery based on NT passages.  Calvin approved (and never repented of) the death penalty for Servetus.  Zwinglians supported the death penalty for heretics.  Luther also had some brutality intertwined with his teachings.  Jonathan Edwards, standout of the Great Awakening, was a slaveholder.  

 

In my view, by saying "by their fruits you shall know them," Jesus condemns himself and his Father.  The OT law is full of commands to persecute and kill.  Of course, slavery is part of the law as well.  The New Testament asks slaves to obey their masters and Jesus says nothing against the practice in the NT.  Furthermore, Jesus casts people off to be tortured forever in Mt 25.  

 

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

 

Perhaps Jesus didn't know himself...

[Aggie]

Methinks the Psalmist is a false believer as well:

 

Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks. (Ps 137:9)

 

Maybe he, Yahweh, Moses, Calvin, Luther--along with us wicked folks who think some of this sounds a bit sketchy-- will be hanging out in hell together!

[moanareina]

 

" Being a christian here is a straight road to get bullied and excluded and made fun of. Why would anyone be a fake christian by choice?

Wow, Moanareina, where are you? - if you feel like saying so. Lots of people seem to live in places where NOT being a Christian leads to bullying, exclusion and being made to feel shunned or otherwise out of it - or even to suffer financial consequences.

 

 

Switzerland. Pretty much all Europe is quite religionless. It was weird when I came to the US for my exchange semester in 2003 and when I told people I was a christian no one was giving me weird looks. And no one actually wanted to talk about it either. It was like you have your faith and I have mine and we let each other live that way. Like cool you are a christian, I am a buddhist. Period, end of talk. That was in Chicago at UIC (University of Illinois at Chicago). Pretty amazing experience because really, I was used to get mocked and avoided due to my faith or lets say faith played a huge role in it.

 

I always think it is interesting when people start to discuss separation of church and state here. Because when I look at the US that claims to separate those two it looks like religion has more influence on politics then in Switzerland where we still have state churches. I think to have churches that are under the state regulates somehow religious extremism because those so called non denominational churches more or less orient themselves on those state churches. They try to work together because they believe in the unity of christ's body and so they have to stay on certain ground because otherwise they would be called a cult and thats what they want to avoid because people here, means non christians, are very afraid of cults.