Why Isn't The World More Perfect?

[Anakin]

Anakin, You are focusing only on forgiveness. Mercy without Justice would defeat the purpose of life in the same way Justice without Mercy would. Both must be in effect, in order for both of them to be in effect there has to be a third party mediating between them. There really is no other way.

No I wasn't. So, here we are full circle back to the beginning of our conversation. Hey, whatever

floats your boat dude. I'm not starting at the beginning again. I'm not going to rephrase what's

already been said. There is nothing I can say to change the mind of someone who believes

that there is "really no other way" for an all powerful being to achieve forgiveness/justice/mercy other that the brutal slaying of it's own child.

If you believe that a god with unlimited power, who could simply will whatever it wants into being, absolutely had to murder an innocent person (or kill himself, whatever your sect thinks),in order to satisfy himself; then what else could be said to make you see otherwise?

Nothing.

[Skankboy]

The interplay between foreknowledge and agency is a bit difficult to understand. Perhaps if you thought of it in finite terms. A weatherman is able to predict storms by understanding how each variable in the atmosphere effects the said storm, yet we do not accuse the weatherman of making those storms. I have a friend who has a tendency to choose Sprite over 7-Up. Given the conditions I may predict that my friend will choose sprite, that does not mean I made him choose sprite. It is the same with our Heavenly Father, only more specific. He knows us, he knows the conditions we are in and what we will choose given those conditions. That does not mean he made those choices for us, or forced us to do certain things....

 

The problem with these examples IS that they only deal in the finite. The flaw is right there in the language you used. The act of "prediction" bears no resemblence to something possessing omniscience. In your examples the future isn't KNOWN, it's an educated guess. That's the difference between absolute (omni) knowledge and conditional knowledge. KNOWING something will happen means that it cannot possibly happen any other way. If it can't happen any other way, there is no true exercise of "agency" and free will is a pleasant illusion.

 

Your god cannot exist simply by virtue of the attributes you apply to it. Infinite properties can only exist in the abstract and the abstract, by definition, only exists in our minds.

 

You still haven't really addressed Anakin's argument, which relates to my own: NOTHING is beyond the realm of an omnipotent being. Why then was this "sacrifice" necessary?

 

IMOHO,

[Ouroboros]

Well said Skankboy et.al.

 

It is a strange thing that Creationists and ID alike claim a perfect universe and at the same time claim us humans are imperfect and need salvation. Make up your mind please! It's the same contradiction as in Genesis, saying that everything is perfect, and yet the snake is there full of evil, and A&E are incapable of understanding what's right and wrong. What's so perfect about that? Either it is or it isn't!

[Skankboy]

Either it is or it isn't!

 

True. They are the ones setting up this absolute dicotomy to begin with, which ends up causing more problems than it solves...

[SweetSouthernHeretic]

I've been out of the Christian church for over a decade now, but I guess I'm going through a "slow detox." I really *want* to believe... in something... but the longer I live, the more clear it becomes that we are just alone. Nobody is coming to save us. We have to save ourselves. And I had myself a pretty darn good cry about it last night. I was just really upset, depressed and angry about the state of the world... and very aware of how religion (specifically fundamentalist Christianity, because that is where I come from) has made some bad situations even worse. It seems that so much of what we do in this life, we do to help us forget (even if we only sense it dimly, as I have lately) that we are all alone.

 

I think that must be our (humanity's) fatal flaw: so many of us persist in looking outside of ourselves for the answers, looking for someone else to come and save us from ourselves.

 

But we are all alone. What am I going to do about that?

 

One of the platitudes that really rang false to me last night while I was having my cry is how Christians put this false face of "loving Father" on Jehovah. It became so clear to me that no loving father would leave "His kids" alone like this, sin or no sin. It should be crystal-clear to "God" and everyone that our species is not mature enough to be left alone. To do so is the act of a BAD PARENT. It's like Jehovah is just sitting out in the yard reading the paper while we trash the place.

 

Since last night, I have been trying to wrap my mind around the fact that Jehovah, the deity I believed in for most of my life (assuming that he exists at all) has just been phoning it in for 2,000 years. Well, I really despise Jehovah now. No "god" worth his salt would have let the world get to this point. Is this all supposed to teach us a lesson? Well, Jehovah, even "Your" people do not seem to "get it."

 

I never imagined I would be seriously considering atheism as a valid choice for me. How did I get to this point? What a long, strange trip it's been.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Ouroboros]

Btw welcome SSH.

 

I've been out of the Christian church for over a decade now, but I guess I'm going through a "slow detox." I really *want* to believe... in something... but the longer I live, the more clear it becomes that we are just alone. Nobody is coming to save us. We have to save ourselves. And I had myself a pretty darn good cry about it last night. I was just really upset, depressed and angry about the state of the world... and very aware of how religion (specifically fundamentalist Christianity, because that is where I come from) has made some bad situations even worse. It seems that so much of what we do in this life, we do to help us forget (even if we only sense it dimly, as I have lately) that we are all alone.

It is a rude awakening when it comes. I also wanted to believe when I lost my faith, but couldnt', so I know the feeling. After a while you start to realize that by knowing what you just said, you have matured and grown up and you start to feel the responsibility on your shoulders for your life and the life of people around you.

 

(I was a fun-and-mental Christian too)

 

I think that must be our (humanity's) fatal flaw: so many of us persist in looking outside of ourselves for the answers, looking for someone else to come and save us from ourselves.

Probably because deep down we know we are screwed up and can't fix it on our own.

 

But we are all alone. What am I going to do about that?

We have to start fixing it ourselves... but most of us feel like "darn it, I don't wanna, I wan't to sit in the corner and sulk and get spoonfed the right answers..."

 

One of the platitudes that really rang false to me last night while I was having my cry is how Christians put this false face of "loving Father" on Jehovah. It became so clear to me that no loving father would leave "His kids" alone like this, sin or no sin. It should be crystal-clear to "God" and everyone that our species is not mature enough to be left alone. To do so is the act of a BAD PARENT. It's like Jehovah is just sitting out in the yard reading the paper while we trash the place.

Yes, and this ties into the topic. If we're so faulty that we need God to help us fixing things, then the world isn't perfect. And if it isn't perfect, then the argument "a perfect world" is not useful to prove that God exists.

 

Christians in essence argue like this: "the world is perfect, that proves that it is designed and God is the designer" and then "you are not perfect and God has to make you whole. This proves that Christianity is the true religion."

 

But I could turn the tables like this: "we are faulty human beings, this proves the world is not perfect and it is not designed, hence God doesn't exist", and then "we, as humans, are capable of rationalizing and find the best answers to problems (who else?) and hence don't need any salvation."

 

Since last night, I have been trying to wrap my mind around the fact that Jehovah, the deity I believed in for most of my life (assuming that he exists at all) has just been phoning it in for 2,000 years. Well, I really despise Jehovah now. No "god" worth his salt would have let the world get to this point. Is this all supposed to teach us a lesson? Well, Jehovah, even "Your" people do not seem to "get it."

If God does exist, and he did let it go this bad, to me it would prove that he is not perfect either... An imperfect God created an imperfect world.

 

I never imagined I would be seriously considering atheism as a valid choice for me. How did I get to this point? What a long, strange trip it's been.

Yup. Same here. It does blow my mind thinking about how certain I was I'd never "deny Jesus", and yet here I am, and have no problems with it. I'm happier and more content now then before... go figure.

[Skankboy]

WHO?

Angels do have agency.

 

Because while here in mortality, we gain a physical body, a chance to use our agency in gaining experience and attributes, ultimately becoming more like Him who sent us (according to what we choose to do with this opportunity).

 

I've been re-reading this thread and, not to get too far off track, I just realized something about this set of statements.

 

How is a finite period w/agency in a mortal body preferrable to a near infinite amount of time w/an "immortal" one? Wouldn't they indeed be "more like him" since their physical state is closer to the "source"? I mean, god had to become a mortal just to relate to us, how are we more like it than another metaphysical being?

 

I also noticed you didn't answer my question about Judas. Did Judas have "agency" or was he "foreordained"? It seems to me that he had to betray Jesus for the sacrifice to occur. So what was judas' reward for doing what had to be done? I'm pretty sure he isn't in your heaven. Some versions have him committing suicide from being so distraught. Was he following or disobeying god's will when he "betrayed" jesus? It seems to me that a truly "just" and "perfect" being wouldn't have punished Judas for doing what HAD to happen to fufill his will in the fist place...

 

So which is it? Free agency or foreordination?

 

[Skankboy]

***bumped for visibility***

[Ouroboros]

Regarding Judas, it's interesting that the newly found Gospel of Judas tell the story how Judas and Jesus conspired, and Jesus told Judas to "betray" him. Basically, setting up his own martyrdom.

 

For a while I had (as a Christian) a difficulty to understand how Judas could have been bad, since he obeyed God's prediction.

 

If Judas had been good, then he would not have betrayed Jesus, and he would have disobeyed God and hence be bad.

 

Or he obeyed God by betraying Jesus and hence not being bad, but being good.

 

If Judas did have an option and a free will, then God was playing dice with the whole salvation, since Judas could have decided not to "betray" Jesus.

 

And how can you "betray" someone that knows that you are going to do it before even you do? Doesn't betrayal include an action of surprise?

Isn't betrayal when someone you love and trust, do something bad to you without your knowledge or consent? Which wasn't the case in the story.

So the whole story is either moot or stupid or completely ridiculous.

[Who?]

Who?, your answer makes no sense. You speak of "agencies" and how we're sent to earth to learn "attributes" to become more "like Him" and so forth. Where in the Babble do you get clear proof that this is your god's intention? It takes a lot of stretching the meaning of the Babble as well as a lot of personal philosophizing to arrive at that.

 

Besides, unless I am mistaken, nowhere in Scripchah or in the bulk of Xian philosophical tradition is life on this earth considered a "privledge" or something to enjoy, but rather a series of tests and trials to determine our heavenly worth. Perhaps a better question to ask you is why does your god even require testing of his creatures if he knows how we'll all turn out anyway, and why concoct such a complicated plan of salvation that his foreknowledge must've told him few would follow and less would succeed at?

Because it is not dependant on the Bible. The bible does allude to these things however because of apostasy, mistranslation, and misinterpretation this kind of understanding was lost.

 

If earth life does not serve a purpose then why was it made?

 

Because there is a difference between being shown a path, and walking the path.

 

Because just because many fail to realize their full potential does not mean they can not realize that potential at least in part. Also gaining a physical body is well worth it.

Anakin, You are focusing only on forgiveness. Mercy without Justice would defeat the purpose of life in the same way Justice without Mercy would. Both must be in effect, in order for both of them to be in effect there has to be a third party mediating between them. There really is no other way.

No I wasn't. So, here we are full circle back to the beginning of our conversation. Hey, whatever

floats your boat dude. I'm not starting at the beginning again. I'm not going to rephrase what's

already been said. There is nothing I can say to change the mind of someone who believes

that there is "really no other way" for an all powerful being to achieve forgiveness/justice/mercy other that the brutal slaying of it's own child.

If you believe that a god with unlimited power, who could simply will whatever it wants into being, absolutely had to murder an innocent person (or kill himself, whatever your sect thinks),in order to satisfy himself; then what else could be said to make you see otherwise?

Nothing.

 

 

Forgiveness/justice/mercy are only parts of the whole. Bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man requires that these things, Justice and mercy, be as they currently are. As they currently are requires a third party to mitigate between them. Thats what I believe, I am sorry I wasnt able to make a stronger case for it.

 

The interplay between foreknowledge and agency is a bit difficult to understand. Perhaps if you thought of it in finite terms. A weatherman is able to predict storms by understanding how each variable in the atmosphere effects the said storm, yet we do not accuse the weatherman of making those storms. I have a friend who has a tendency to choose Sprite over 7-Up. Given the conditions I may predict that my friend will choose sprite, that does not mean I made him choose sprite. It is the same with our Heavenly Father, only more specific. He knows us, he knows the conditions we are in and what we will choose given those conditions. That does not mean he made those choices for us, or forced us to do certain things....

 

The problem with these examples IS that they only deal in the finite. The flaw is right there in the language you used. The act of "prediction" bears no resemblence to something possessing omniscience. In your examples the future isn't KNOWN, it's an educated guess. That's the difference between absolute (omni) knowledge and conditional knowledge. KNOWING something will happen means that it cannot possibly happen any other way. If it can't happen any other way, there is no true exercise of "agency" and free will is a pleasant illusion.

 

Your god cannot exist simply by virtue of the attributes you apply to it. Infinite properties can only exist in the abstract and the abstract, by definition, only exists in our minds.

 

You still haven't really addressed Anakin's argument, which relates to my own: NOTHING is beyond the realm of an omnipotent being. Why then was this "sacrifice" necessary?

 

IMOHO,

 

That knowledge does not make it happen however. If we educated a meteorologist in all the variables and understanding necessary in predicting storms, would that mean because he predicts a storm it is him to blame for its occurance? There is an independence between knowledge and event, just because a meteorologist knows a storm will occur it does not mean that that knowledge made the storm. Just because god knows how we will use our agency, it does not mean that that knowledge was of any force in how we use our agency.

 

 

 

If I understand your question it is because of the possibilities of achievement available here, which would not be available otherwise.

 

Judas was disobedient and rebellious when he did what he did. To assume that just because it is predicted it is sanctioned is wrong. Did Ninevah recieve any punishment or rebuke of being disobedient by averting the predicted calamities through repentance?

[Skankboy]

Judas was disobedient and rebellious when he did what he did. To assume that just because it is predicted it is sanctioned is wrong.

 

But if he hadn't, jesus wouldn't have been sacrificed and there would be no redemption. So again, was what Judas did wrong? If he had agency, he could of chosen NOT to betray Jesus and thus doomed mankind for NOT being "disobedient" and "rebellious" (I must wonder also, to whom was he being "disobedient". Do you KNOW, that god didn't tell him to?).

 

As for absolute knowledge, I think we've reached an impasse. Our definitions of omniscent and omnipotent are obviously different, I don't think we'll be able to reach common ground on this issue. So be it.

 

Because it is not dependant on the Bible. The bible does allude to these things however because of apostasy, mistranslation, and misinterpretation this kind of understanding was lost.

 

If earth life does not serve a purpose then why was it made?

 

Because there is a difference between being shown a path, and walking the path.

 

Because just because many fail to realize their full potential does not mean they can not realize that potential at least in part. Also gaining a physical body is well worth it.

If find these responses very telling. "Apostasy, mistranslation and misinterpretation" So the bible you have today isn't inerrant? It was but now it isn't?

 

The purpose of life if living, it doesn't need an external purpose because they weren't "made".

 

Again, how is having a physcial body an advantage? What potentials can a "spirit body" not attain?

 

[Who?]

The Atonement or redemption began in Gethsamena without judas' betrayal. He would have still found a way to accomplish what had to be done. It would not be foiled by Judas choosing to do something honorable over something terrible.

 

 

My definition of omnipotents however is my own (not from Mormonism). I do not discuss it because I am unsure of its validity.

 

 

Correct. "...for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away."

 

 

yes but assuming the Biblical narrative it had an intelligent Creator. An intelligent creator would not make something without purpose, right?

 

 

 

We are not told, we are told that the spiritual body without the physical body cannot obtain a fulness of joy however.

[Skankboy]

We are not told, we are told that the spiritual body without the physical body cannot obtain a fulness of joy however.

 

Let me rephrase the question, since before I believe you mentioned needed to have a physical body to reach our full potential and be closer to god. How would having a physical body make you MORE like a spiritual being?

 

Angels don't feel true joy?

 

 

Back to Judas, you honestly believe the sacrifice would have occured otherwise? I find that a bit hard to swallow considering the tone of the narratives. You can't even see the possiblity that Judas was doing god's will (and I assume you agree it was god's will that jesus be sacrificed)? Certainly the other gospels paint Judas as evil, but if the books were written by the attending apostles, why wouldn't they think Judas was acting immorally. They had lost there master and he was the most obvious reason. Even though jesus as much as told them he was going to be sacrificed, they still reviled Judas for what I see as doing what had to be done. Imagine if you were asked to sacrifice the most important person in your life so that others might be saved. And what if after the act, you felt severe anquish and doubt over what you had done. If judas did sin, it was not having faith enough that the act HE WAS BOUND TO DO would truly end in a physical ressurection and that his master was not truly dead, and committing suicide before he could see the act truly completed.

 

I wonder if you truly realize how much room for personal interpretation there is in your bible?

 

IMOHO,

[Anakin]

Judas was disobedient and rebellious when he did what he did. To assume that just because it is predicted it is sanctioned is wrong.

 

But if he hadn't, jesus wouldn't have been sacrificed and there would be no redemption. So again, was what Judas did wrong? If he had agency, he could of chosen NOT to betray Jesus and thus doomed mankind for NOT being "disobedient" and "rebellious" (I must wonder also, to whom was he being "disobedient". Do you KNOW, that god didn't tell him to?).

I agree with Skankboy. If Judas actually had "agency" (aka: power or means) he could have

chosen NOT to betray Jesus. But I think the last half of John 17:12 shows that Judas did not

have any power to make his own choice. ".None has been lost except the one doomed to

destruction so that scriptures would be fulfilled." NIV. The KJV says it like this: ".and

none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Neither version sounds like Judas had a choice. He actually would have been "disobedient

and rebellious" if he had not done it.

It's all moot really. A fictional character does not have "agency".

As for absolute knowledge, I think we've reached an impasse. Our definitions of omniscent and omnipotent are obviously different, I don't think we'll be able to reach common ground on this issue. So be it.

You're right. However I think we need to throw in forgiveness, justice and mercy also.

[Ouroboros]

I agree too, since (supposedly) Jesus already predicted Judas' behavior and even pointed him out, Judas had no choice in a predetermined universe. (But lets not get into predisposition contra free will again.)

 

If Judas had chosen not to, he would have acted against God's foreknowledge, and hence being more powerful that God's own will. Would have been a pretty neat trick.

[Who?]

We are not told, we are told that the spiritual body without the physical body cannot obtain a fulness of joy however.

 

Let me rephrase the question, since before I believe you mentioned needed to have a physical body to reach our full potential and be closer to god. How would having a physical body make you MORE like a spiritual being?

 

Angels don't feel true joy?

 

 

Back to Judas, you honestly believe the sacrifice would have occured otherwise? I find that a bit hard to swallow considering the tone of the narratives. You can't even see the possiblity that Judas was doing god's will (and I assume you agree it was god's will that jesus be sacrificed)? Certainly the other gospels paint Judas as evil, but if the books were written by the attending apostles, why wouldn't they think Judas was acting immorally. They had lost there master and he was the most obvious reason. Even though jesus as much as told them he was going to be sacrificed, they still reviled Judas for what I see as doing what had to be done. Imagine if you were asked to sacrifice the most important person in your life so that others might be saved. And what if after the act, you felt severe anquish and doubt over what you had done. If judas did sin, it was not having faith enough that the act HE WAS BOUND TO DO would truly end in a physical ressurection and that his master was not truly dead, and committing suicide before he could see the act truly completed.

 

I wonder if you truly realize how much room for personal interpretation there is in your bible?

 

IMOHO,

 

In what way does our having a physical body prevent us from being spiritual? If anything the body augments our spiritual abilities, not diminishes them. If this body is detrimental why go through the trouble of resurrecting it? (Luke 24:36-43)

 

Angels do feel true joy as they are resurrected beings just as the Savior is a resurrected being.

 

Yes the Sacrifice would have occured otherwise. From Jesus the Christ, "Had Judas been true to the right, other means than this perfidy would have operated to bring the Lamb to the Slaughter".

 

You seemed to have omitted my question about Nineva. Did Nineva recieve any rebuke whatsoever for repenting and averting the foretold calamity?

[Kuroikaze]

 

In what way does our having a physical body prevent us from being spiritual? If anything the body augments our spiritual abilities, not diminishes them. If this body is detrimental why go through the trouble of resurrecting it? (Luke 24:36-43)

 

 

 

The issue with physical resurection was because according to Jewish religious teachings the Soul was not a seperate entity from the body...without the resurection there was no eternal life because when you died you were dead, end of story....the only way to have eternal life (in the mind of the jews) was for the body to be resurected.

 

This was why the Gnostics had such a problem with traditional christianity.

[mwc]

Anakin, You are focusing only on forgiveness. Mercy without Justice would defeat the purpose of life in the same way Justice without Mercy would. Both must be in effect, in order for both of them to be in effect there has to be a third party mediating between them. There really is no other way.

It's confusing that you keep ignoring the concept of mercy in your arguments. If we had a duel and I had a sword to your throat for killing my brother it is my decision to kill you or have mercy on you. You don't get to tell me that I must execute you in order for justice to be done...that is *my* decision and mine alone. If I let you go and you feel guilty about killing my brother and try to tell me that I must kill you then whose problem is this really? Not mine as I decided that justice was served by having mercy on you and sparing your life. I could care less that you felt my decision to be unjust. Would it make you feel better if you kept demanding an "eye for an eye" and I changed my mind and decided to kill you? It might. I grab my sword and you cry out "I don't want to die." I then ask you "But you say someone must die for justice to be done. What can we do? If I kill my son will you then accept my forgiveness?" "Yes," you declare. "I will consider my debt to you paid if you kill your son." So then I kill my son so that you will accept my forgiveness.

 

This is the story you are saying is what must occur. Why is my having mercy on your actions not enough? It is for me. It is my brother and my decision what justice is yet you cry out for more. Now I have lost my brother and my son in order for you to feel better about yourself. I've lost two things and you've lost none. I lost the first out of your hatred and the second from your guilt. This is truly injustice is it not? What if instead of killing my son for you I simply told you "If you want to do something for me then do not kill anymore people and if someone commits a crime against you, including murder, have mercy on them as I did with you and forgive the whole thing whether they ask for it or not. Expect nothing from others but give everything of yourself."

 

The guilt the bible teaches combined with how utterly undeserving and helpless we are creates a situation that you and most xians are in (sadly I count my wife there too). You are so worthless that someone/thing must atone for your crimes and you cannot accept that anyone, must less a perfect being, could ever simply forgive you and just absolve you of all wrong doings. Your guilt demands "eye for an eye" justice where true mercy does not.

 

mwc

 

P.S. Could you please try to do something in your posts with the quoting? You said it's beyond you but you bolded text in one of you messages. At least bold the quote or your replies to make things easier to read? Thanks.

[mwc]

Yes the Sacrifice would have occured otherwise. From Jesus the Christ, "Had Judas been true to the right, other means than this perfidy would have operated to bring the Lamb to the Slaughter".

This presents a little problem though, doesn't it?

 

You're saying that jesus had to die by some means with this statement. If not Judas, then Peter is the betrayer or maybe jesus falls in a hole and dies. Jesus' death was therefore predestined and could not be avoided no matter what efforts were made by anyone.

 

I see your points about all this from other messages but you're really just playing games to avoid accepting the simple fact that foreknowledge equals predistination especially when combined with perfect ability. If god, from his first and only thought, suddenly in possessed in that instant the entire future of all things, including himself, there is no other chain of events that could ever take place and keep god's perfect knowledge intact. So god knew what he would do from that instant on to eternity. Alternate timelines would create situations where god could only guess or perhaps statitistically predict an outcome (you weatherman assertion) but this precludes god from possessing complete and perfect knowledge. So god knows exactly, moment by moment, each and every action that he will ever make. He cannot deviate from this path without violating what he is. Likewise he knows what every other thing will every do down to the smallest detail to the smallest moment of time (god may not use Planck time). So if you go to the store to by ice cream (and we'll assume you love ice cream) I could predict with great accuracy that you will return with ice cream (just like the weatherman). But if I have perfect and absolute foreknowledge of the situation and I know (I don't have to tell you though) that you will not return with ice cream then you simply cannot return with ice cream. If you do then I am not perfect afterall but by definition I am so this isn't a possibility. If you don't did I somehow "force" you to not get the ice cream? No, I did not in that I never actively did anything to affect your actions. Simple *knowing* your actions is enough for you to be locked into them however and this "script" is predestination. You could *only* return without ice cream in order for me to be perfectly accurate and I did not interact with you at all.

 

This concept is important to understand. So did god make us sin? Not directly he doesn't. His knowledge that we will sin locks us into it though. Even if we could somehow want to stop sinning the fact that god knows tomorrow at 10:32 you will think sinful thoughts leaves you no choice but to think evil thoughts at 10:32 (you can't think them at 10:31 or 10:33 and am/pm doesn't matter in this example obviously). So how is this important? God is simply reporting what we will do and so the issue is still with us, right? Wrong. This knowledge means that in god's first and only thought he thought us all into a situation that he knew prior to any other actions on his part would result in his creation to be corrupt and billions and billions to suffer for all eternity. He saw the attrocities (on both sides) coming and did not rethink things. He simply could have done nothing and been content being alone if all his "creations" had similar paths and fates. He either wants eternal punishment or he simply could not change his mind once he had the idea and we're all locked into this "first thought" like it or not (thus negating his claim of being all powerful as well).

 

mwc

[RHEMtron]

This concept is important to understand. So did god make us sin? Not directly he doesn't. His knowledge that we will sin locks us into it though. Even if we could somehow want to stop sinning the fact that god knows tomorrow at 10:32 you will think sinful thoughts leaves you no choice but to think evil thoughts at 10:32 (you can't think them at 10:31 or 10:33 and am/pm doesn't matter in this example obviously). So how is this important? God is simply reporting what we will do and so the issue is still with us, right? Wrong. This knowledge means that in god's first and only thought he thought us all into a situation that he knew prior to any other actions on his part would result in his creation to be corrupt and billions and billions to suffer for all eternity. He saw the attrocities (on both sides) coming and did not rethink things. He simply could have done nothing and been content being alone if all his "creations" had similar paths and fates. He either wants eternal punishment or he simply could not change his mind once he had the idea and we're all locked into this "first thought" like it or not (thus negating his claim of being all powerful as well).

 

mwc

 

that is a problem indeed. in the court of law, if one has preknowledge of a crime and does not act, they will be held accountable. in terms of the NT, god is being a "stumble block" towards man.

[Skankboy]

In what way does our having a physical body prevent us from being spiritual? If anything the body augments our spiritual abilities, not diminishes them. If this body is detrimental why go through the trouble of resurrecting it? (Luke 24:36-43)

For one, a physical body is susceptible to the failings of the flesh (physical addiction, lust, etc). Also, if god is a spiritually based being, how would going from spiritual to physical be an advantage? I would think a spiritual being would by default be more like another spiritual being…

 

Angels do feel true joy as they are resurrected beings just as the Savior is a resurrected being.

To be resurrected, you have to have died previously. When exactly did the angels ever die?

 

And you seem to contradict yourself here as well. Previously you intimated that angels were at a disadvantage to those granted the “privilege” of a physical body:

“We are not told, we are told that the spiritual body without the physical body cannot obtain a fulness of joy however.”

 

If angels feel true joy, then again, what exactly is the advantage of a physical body?

 

Yes the Sacrifice would have occured otherwise. From Jesus the Christ, "Had Judas been true to the right, other means than this perfidy would have operated to bring the Lamb to the Slaughter".

You’ll have to excuse me if I’m unfamiliar with your version of the bible. Reference please?

 

 

You seemed to have omitted my question about Nineva. Did Nineva recieve any rebuke whatsoever for repenting and averting the foretold calamity?

Again, I have no idea what event you are referring to. Even doing a google search I was unable to find any reference to “nineva” other than the ancient capital of Assyria.

 

[Anakin]

Again, I have no idea what event you are referring to. Even doing a google search I was unable to find any reference to “nineva” other than the ancient capital of Assyria.

 

I think he's refering to Jonah and the big fish in the book of Jonah. Jonah was supposed to go

preach to the people of Nineveh.

[Anakin]

Actually the story of Jonah can be used to show the opposite. After Jonah gives in to god

and the fish spits him up on a beach he delivers god's threat to the king of Nineveh.

The threat was not a prediction. He basicly said they had 40 days to straighten up or be destroyed (Jonah 3:4). So god doesn't destroy them. Here's the kicker. In Ch.4 Jonah gets pissed off.

In 4:2 Jonah says "O Lord, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was

so quick to flee to Tarahish. I knew that you are gracious and compassionate..(yada,yada)

.who relents from sending calamity."

See, I take that as Jonah saying, "god, I knew you wouldn't do this and You knew you wouldn't

do this, that's why I didn't want to go. I wasted my time".

I'm sure it will be said that I'm reading this wrong. At any rate the story of Jonah is not a

clear cut example of god the weatherman making a prediction and then it changes.

The bible means whatever the reader wants it to mean.

[Skankboy]

Thanks for the tip Anakin, I was beginning to worder what the hell I was missing here...

 

I also agree with your assessment and would like to add to it if I may:

 

The story clearly states that God repented.

"10": And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Why would God need to change his mind, if he knew the outcome in the beginning? If he did know the results ahead of time, then Jonah was being used as an instrument to ensure they coformed to his will. This would mean that Jonah had no real agency in this case. My prime example: the fish. While we may have agency, the fish did not. Which means it was god who performed this act and FORCED Jonah to peform his will. Not alot of agency for Jonah in this case...

 

[Ouroboros]

You seemed to have omitted my question about Nineva. Did Nineva recieve any rebuke whatsoever for repenting and averting the foretold calamity?

Again, I have no idea what event you are referring to. Even doing a google search I was unable to find any reference to “nineva” other than the ancient capital of Assyria.

Story of Jona and the big tunafish.