Guest afireinside Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 How about Jesus telling us to HATE our family but also saying to HATE is to MURDER and to murder is to BURN IN HELL!. So he wants us to follow him......into Hell??? Jesus I'm not falling for that one you cheeky twat! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 … Yeah, christians sure do have some dumbass arguments. … Nitpick. They are not arguments at all. They are mere assertions, a common logical fallacy. That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Simple as pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 In the gospels, Jesus moved the goalposts for salvation a few times. It just goes to show, his message wasn't consistent. The stories of liars usually lack consistency; it's one of the ways you can tell they're full of shit. Christians argue that the fact that Gospel accounts differ is proof of their authenticity, like if it was a lie they'd all say the same thing. How dumb is that?. If witnesses to a crime all disagreed on what was said and done should the judge consider that strong evidence that they are all telling the truth or is a consistent account more believable?. All of this shit doesn't add up The irony is that in Mark while Jesus was before the Sanhedrin, there were witnesses who gave inconsistent testimony. Here is the passage: 55 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any. 56 Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree. Mark 14:55-56 The obvious purpose of including this is to prove that inconsistent testimony was false and, therefore, Jesus was not guilty of any crime since inconsistent testimony cannot be believed. Yet, Christians take the opposite approach and, contrary to Mark, argue that inconsistent testimony makes the Gospels more believable. Using that standard, Jesus was guilty because the inconsistent testimony is stronger than consistent testimony! I honestly just think that he was a dude who started a cult - It got dangerous e.g. 'Destroy the Temple' etc... He was killed - some followers then made up some spin about him comming back to life 'Which none of the accounts match properly'. If we think about it. Matthias who was around before Jesus said he could rise again in 3 days - Unfortunately he stayed dead. So perhaps the same happened to Jesus just he was fortunate enough to have followers lie anyway. I think Paul started the cult, and the gospel myths were written later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. Lee Strobel’s wrote this about the unpardonable sin. Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Note that Jesus didn’t address his comments to his disciples or a mere crowd. He was talking specifically to Pharisees who had personally witnessed his miracle of completely and instantly healing a blind and mute demon-possessed man (Matthew 12:22). Rather than acknowledging the obvious fact that Jesus was exercising divine powers, the Pharisees were so spiritually depraved that they attributed his power to Satan (v. 24). “Their problem was not blind ignorance, but willful rejection,” pointed out Cornish. “That deliberate refusal to believe, even though knowing the truth, seems to be what Jesus called the unforgivable sin.” As the Quest Study Bible puts it, “Jesus gave the solemn warning in these verses to people whose hard-heartedness placed them on the brink of disaster. Blasphemy against the Spirit evidently is not just a one-time offense; rather, it is an ongoing attitude of rebellion – a stubborn way of life that continually resists, rejects and insults the Holy Spirit. This is what makes it, in effect, an eternal sin (Mark 3:29). Blasphemy against the Spirit is not unforgivable because of something done unintentionally in the past, but because of something being done deliberately and unrelentingly in the present.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? He contradicted it in his very post: .quote. It's a person's rejection of Christ. Lee Strobel’s wrote this about the unpardonable sin. Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” ./quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? He contradicted it in his very post: .quote. It's a person's rejection of Christ. Lee Strobel’s wrote this about the unpardonable sin. Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” ./quote. Good spotting there. Oops, my bad for going TL;DR on Strobels. Anyway, maybe he will still try and answer my question, or maybe he won't. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? I think it's a "can't see the forest for the trees" situation. You know being so involved in the details you can't see the situation as a whole. The NT clearly teach that we are accepted by Christ by grace, not works. I am a believer. I still sin at times. I don't make it a habit or something to pursue but it happens. The NT scriptures are clear on this battle we have with doing the wrong thing at times. Paul wrote on his struggle on this. But I'm forgiven of my sins. I'm free of them. When I do sin...I asked for forgiveness and move on. It's not a thing that derails me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? He contradicted it in his very post: .quote. It's a person's rejection of Christ. Lee Strobel’s wrote this about the unpardonable sin. Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” ./quote. Awesome, MM! I can't wait to see what Bob Dylan song Ironhorse uses to get out of this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? He contradicted it in his very post: .quote. It's a person's rejection of Christ. Lee Strobel’s wrote this about the unpardonable sin. Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” ./quote. Awesome, MM! I can't wait to see what Bob Dylan song Ironhorse uses to get out of this one! What topic would you like the song to be about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereisnoperfect Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. Lee Strobel’s wrote this about the unpardonable sin. Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Note that Jesus didn’t address his comments to his disciples or a mere crowd. He was talking specifically to Pharisees who had personally witnessed his miracle of completely and instantly healing a blind and mute demon-possessed man (Matthew 12:22). Rather than acknowledging the obvious fact that Jesus was exercising divine powers, the Pharisees were so spiritually depraved that they attributed his power to Satan (v. 24). “Their problem was not blind ignorance, but willful rejection,” pointed out Cornish. “That deliberate refusal to believe, even though knowing the truth, seems to be what Jesus called the unforgivable sin.” As the Quest Study Bible puts it, “Jesus gave the solemn warning in these verses to people whose hard-heartedness placed them on the brink of disaster. Blasphemy against the Spirit evidently is not just a one-time offense; rather, it is an ongoing attitude of rebellion – a stubborn way of life that continually resists, rejects and insults the Holy Spirit. This is what makes it, in effect, an eternal sin (Mark 3:29). Blasphemy against the Spirit is not unforgivable because of something done unintentionally in the past, but because of something being done deliberately and unrelentingly in the present.” Given that all of us ex-christians are here precisely as a demonstration of doing exactly this, why are you wasting your time on us? We're neck-deep in the unforgivable sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I am a believer. I still sin at times. I don't make it a habit or something to pursue but it happens. The NT scriptures are clear on this battle we have with doing the wrong thing at times. Paul wrote on his struggle on this. But I'm forgiven of my sins. I'm free of them. When I do sin...I asked for forgiveness and move on. It's not a thing that derails me. No, you never sin. None of us ever sin because there are no gods to be offended. You are not free. Your religion keeps you trapped by making you feel guilty for having natural instincts. To be free you must realize there is no sin. Crime is real. Don't offend the government. Rude behavior is real. Try to not offend your fellow humans. Sin is not real. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. Lee Strobel’s wrote this about the unpardonable sin. Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Note that Jesus didn’t address his comments to his disciples or a mere crowd. He was talking specifically to Pharisees who had personally witnessed his miracle of completely and instantly healing a blind and mute demon-possessed man (Matthew 12:22). Rather than acknowledging the obvious fact that Jesus was exercising divine powers, the Pharisees were so spiritually depraved that they attributed his power to Satan (v. 24). “Their problem was not blind ignorance, but willful rejection,” pointed out Cornish. “That deliberate refusal to believe, even though knowing the truth, seems to be what Jesus called the unforgivable sin.” As the Quest Study Bible puts it, “Jesus gave the solemn warning in these verses to people whose hard-heartedness placed them on the brink of disaster. Blasphemy against the Spirit evidently is not just a one-time offense; rather, it is an ongoing attitude of rebellion – a stubborn way of life that continually resists, rejects and insults the Holy Spirit. This is what makes it, in effect, an eternal sin (Mark 3:29). Blasphemy against the Spirit is not unforgivable because of something done unintentionally in the past, but because of something being done deliberately and unrelentingly in the present.” Given that all of us ex-christians are here precisely as a demonstration of doing exactly this, why are you wasting your time on us? We're neck-deep in the unforgivable sin. Ahhh...come on...I like being here. I like you guys. I'm not wasting my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. Lee Strobel’s wrote this about the unpardonable sin. Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Note that Jesus didn’t address his comments to his disciples or a mere crowd. He was talking specifically to Pharisees who had personally witnessed his miracle of completely and instantly healing a blind and mute demon-possessed man (Matthew 12:22). Rather than acknowledging the obvious fact that Jesus was exercising divine powers, the Pharisees were so spiritually depraved that they attributed his power to Satan (v. 24). “Their problem was not blind ignorance, but willful rejection,” pointed out Cornish. “That deliberate refusal to believe, even though knowing the truth, seems to be what Jesus called the unforgivable sin.” As the Quest Study Bible puts it, “Jesus gave the solemn warning in these verses to people whose hard-heartedness placed them on the brink of disaster. Blasphemy against the Spirit evidently is not just a one-time offense; rather, it is an ongoing attitude of rebellion – a stubborn way of life that continually resists, rejects and insults the Holy Spirit. This is what makes it, in effect, an eternal sin (Mark 3:29). Blasphemy against the Spirit is not unforgivable because of something done unintentionally in the past, but because of something being done deliberately and unrelentingly in the present.” Given that all of us ex-christians are here precisely as a demonstration of doing exactly this, why are you wasting your time on us? We're neck-deep in the unforgivable sin. Ahhh...come on...I like being here. I like you guys. I'm not wasting my time. What is your purpose in being here, what are you trying to achieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? The NT clearly teach that we are accepted by Christ by grace, not works. Well, it's not all that clear. A person is required to perform some works to be saved. You must believe, repent, be baptized, confess before men, maintain faith, and perform some acts of charity(Matt 25) in order to receive the prize. The only way to be saved by grace alone is via predestination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? The NT clearly teach that we are accepted by Christ by grace, not works. Well, it's not all that clear. A person is required to perform some works to be saved. You must believe, repent, be baptized, confess before men, maintain faith, and perform some acts of charity(Matt 25) in order to receive the prize. The only way to be saved by grace alone is via predestination. Predestination? You are about to enter Heaven and the sign reads 'Whosoever Will' and upon entering you look back and see a sign 'Chosen From the Foundation of the World'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Grace by faith is what I used to believe. The Israelites had faith in the blood at the Passover. We were required to have faith in "the blood" We will be passed over apparently(saved) by the blood Israelites never chose to be saved, they were CHOSEN Does that mean God allocates grace for The Chosen to accept and to the rest a big get fucked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Grace by faith is what I used to believe. The Israelites had faith in the blood at the Passover. We were required to have faith in "the blood" We will be passed over apparently(saved) by the blood Israelites never chose to be saved, they were CHOSEN Does that mean God allocates grace for The Chosen to accept and to the rest a big get fucked? We are free to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 The Egyptians weren't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Grace by faith is what I used to believe. The Israelites had faith in the blood at the Passover. We were required to have faith in "the blood" We will be passed over apparently(saved) by the blood Israelites never chose to be saved, they were CHOSEN Does that mean God allocates grace for The Chosen to accept and to the rest a big get fucked? We are free to choose. Are you god? If not, prove it. BTW, many verses in the bible say otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Not all those who cry out Lord Lord will be saved or some shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 23, 2014 I think it's a "can't see the forest for the trees" situation. You know being so involved in the details you can't see the situation as a whole. This is precisely why you can't see the blatant contradictions in the bible that have been clearly demonstrated to you by the people on this website. You are too caught up in trying to explain to us the little details that you can't even see the bible as the complete work of fiction that it is. Your own words condemn you, TinPony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsman Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 If I had to put it into words it goes like this. The unforgivable sin is falling away and finding the truth. It isnt unforgivable, but once you see christianity with its mask off you can never go back to the darkness. Clergy have thus invented the idea of "the unforgivable sin" to tell their congregations. "Oh so and so will never return because he has commited the unforgivable sin." This leads to the congregation to no longer try and preach to the apostate because now everyone knows they are never coming back. Discouraging preaching to apostates who have commited the unforgivable sin ensures less people will be deconverted by also seeing the light in the process of conversing with apostates. How is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? I think it's a "can't see the forest for the trees" situation. You know being so involved in the details you can't see the situation as a whole. The NT clearly teach that we are accepted by Christ by grace, not works. I am a believer. I still sin at times. I don't make it a habit or something to pursue but it happens. The NT scriptures are clear on this battle we have with doing the wrong thing at times. Paul wrote on his struggle on this. But I'm forgiven of my sins. I'm free of them. When I do sin...I asked for forgiveness and move on. It's not a thing that derails me. You seem to think we're hung up on the details, Ironhorse? Well, these details aren't the small and easily-ignored things you might think they are. When taken together they add up to a mighty BIG deal. . . . When too many details (i.e., passages of scripture) conflict with one another, we can't do what you seem to do and apply the one-size-fits-all bandage of faith over the cracks... because we don't have your faith and there are simply too many cracks. When too many details (i.e., the almost total absence of corroborating historical evidence) are missing, we can't do what you seem to do and apply the one-size-fits-all bandage of faith over the gaps... because we don't have your faith and there are simply too many gaps. When too many details (i.e, scientific evidence) contradict scripture, we can't do what you seem to do and apply the one-size-fits-all bandage of faith over the scientific impossibilities... because we don't have your faith and there are simply too many impossibilities to ignore. When too many details (i.e., our personal relationship with Jesus) fall short of what is promised in the Bible, we can't do what you do and apply the one-size-fits-all bandage of faith over our sense of betrayal... because we don't have your faith and god wasn't there for us when we needed him. When too many details (i.e., our experiences of Christianity) show that the lives of other Christians haven't been transformed by the Holy Spirit, we can't do what you do and apply the one-size-fits-all bandage of faith over their hurtful behavior... because we don't have your faith and the hurt goes deep! . . . You see Ironhorse, the issue is one of faith. We have no magic-bullet of faith to solve all of these problems... so they remain. Your belief that they aren't problems fails to meet any of our needs. If you believe that everything in the Bible is clear and unamiguous, how does that help us? Answer is... it doesn't. From our p.o.v. the ambiguities, the contradictions and the unresolved details remain. Your declaration that everything's just cool and dandy doesn't help us... it causes us to doubt you. We can't go where you are, do what you do, think as you think or feel as you feel. Our standards are different to yours. (Yes, I'm going to say it!) Our standards of evidence are much higher than yours and (if we had any) faith is no substitute for that shortfall. Therefore, when you wave your magic wand of faith and claim that X or Y or Z isn't a problem, but only a detail... we doubt you. We doubt that you're being as honest with yourself as we're being with ourselves. We doubt that you understand (or want to) understand the issues. We doubt your motives and your reasons for being here. And if we doubt you so much, how can we trust you? . . . Just for the record... I don't trust you, either. Now, can you help me (and others) to trust you and stop doubting you? If you do nothing else in response to this message, please answer this one question. Thanks, BAA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's a person's rejection of Christ. How do you know that, when other parts of the bible contradict that belief? The NT clearly teach that we are accepted by Christ by grace, not works. Well, it's not all that clear. A person is required to perform some works to be saved. You must believe, repent, be baptized, confess before men, maintain faith, and perform some acts of charity(Matt 25) in order to receive the prize. The only way to be saved by grace alone is via predestination. Predestination? You are about to enter Heaven and the sign reads 'Whosoever Will' and upon entering you look back and see a sign 'Chosen From the Foundation of the World'. The Bible teaches that predestination is used by God for at least some people. If you're predestined to salvation, that would qualify as "grace". You don't have to do anything. If you're not predestined, you have do do some works(listed above) to qualify for salvation. Theologians have never been able to reconcile the two because they have no idea who might be predestined and who isn't. In many cases, apologists will simply ignore the passages where predestination is taught or they'll try to water it down to a meaningless word salad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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