duderonomy Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 "As a believer the thing that helped me was, when taking the "leap of faith" towards God, I did not gauge my relationship in Christ simply by my feelings or emotions. I just accepted Christ in faith." ironhorse That is the same faith that radical Islamist rely on. Tell me, how do you have faith without reason or emotion? What's left but guesswork? bill No, it's not the same leap as a radical Islamist. I can take my leap with a ham sandwich and a cold glass of beer. I'm not jumping into law, but grace. I didn't guess...I just took the leap. Ironhorse, if Biblical grace were grace according to what I was always taught, "unmerited favor" from Biblegod, no leap would be necessary. Every human being would be saved by God's grace. The fact that some aren't means that obviously there is something one must do to earn such a state of grace. But if there is something one must do to earn God's unmerited favor, then it stands to reason that by definition such favor cannot be unmerited. You must do a work. Call it a leap, a belief, a decision, or call it what you will. If you are saved by anything you do, then asking someone to do anything to achieve this state of favor is asking them to do something that would merit the grace of God, and if a person has to do anything to merit the unmerited grace of God, then grace is not grace any longer; unmerited and unearned is no longer unmerited and unearned. The fact that Biblegod says you can have a ham sandwich and a cold one doesn't change the fact that according to Islam, you can't have a ham sandwich and a cold one. Also, as an Ex-Christian, I will remind you that as a Christian you live under the laws of your God. Because you believe that the law is now written in your heart instead of tablets of stone makes no difference, you are under the law. You didn't take a leap into grace, but into religion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 "As a believer the thing that helped me was, when taking the "leap of faith" towards God, I did not gauge my relationship in Christ simply by my feelings or emotions. I just accepted Christ in faith." ironhorse That is the same faith that radical Islamist rely on. Tell me, how do you have faith without reason or emotion? What's left but guesswork? bill No, it's not the same leap as a radical Islamist. I can take my leap with a ham sandwich and a cold glass of beer. I'm not jumping into law, but grace. I didn't guess...I just took the leap. Ironhorse, if Biblical grace were grace according to what I was always taught, "unmerited favor" from Biblegod, no leap would be necessary. Every human being would be saved by God's grace. The fact that some aren't means that obviously there is something one must do to earn such a state of grace. But if there is something one must do to earn God's unmerited favor, then it stands to reason that by definition such favor cannot be unmerited. You must do a work. Call it a leap, a belief, a decision, or call it what you will. If you are saved by anything you do, then asking someone to do anything to achieve this state of favor is asking them to do something that would merit the grace of God, and if a person has to do anything to merit the unmerited grace of God, then grace is not grace any longer; unmerited and unearned is no longer unmerited and unearned. The fact that Biblegod says you can have a ham sandwich and a cold one doesn't change the fact that according to Islam, you can't have a ham sandwich and a cold one. Also, as an Ex-Christian, I will remind you that as a Christian you live under the laws of your God. Because you believe that the law is now written in your heart instead of tablets of stone makes no difference, you are under the law. You didn't take a leap into grace, but into religion. duderonomy, "Ironhorse, if Biblical grace were grace according to what I was always taught, "unmerited favor" from Biblegod, no leap would be necessary. Every human being would be saved by God's grace. The fact that some aren't means that obviously there is something one must do to earn such a state of grace." I think our disagreement is in the way we view free will. I believe that God took the biggest gamble ever by creating humans with free will. He could have just as easily created "puppets on a string" with a happy happy happy world for him to control. You want that? We could not even be having this discussion if that had happened. So, if we don't like the idea of a tyrant, I don't think God does either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 "As a believer the thing that helped me was, when taking the "leap of faith" towards God, I did not gauge my relationship in Christ simply by my feelings or emotions. I just accepted Christ in faith." ironhorse That is the same faith that radical Islamist rely on. Tell me, how do you have faith without reason or emotion? What's left but guesswork? bill No, it's not the same leap as a radical Islamist. I can take my leap with a ham sandwich and a cold glass of beer. I'm not jumping into law, but grace. I didn't guess...I just took the leap. Ironhorse, if Biblical grace were grace according to what I was always taught, "unmerited favor" from Biblegod, no leap would be necessary. Every human being would be saved by God's grace. The fact that some aren't means that obviously there is something one must do to earn such a state of grace. But if there is something one must do to earn God's unmerited favor, then it stands to reason that by definition such favor cannot be unmerited. You must do a work. Call it a leap, a belief, a decision, or call it what you will. If you are saved by anything you do, then asking someone to do anything to achieve this state of favor is asking them to do something that would merit the grace of God, and if a person has to do anything to merit the unmerited grace of God, then grace is not grace any longer; unmerited and unearned is no longer unmerited and unearned. The fact that Biblegod says you can have a ham sandwich and a cold one doesn't change the fact that according to Islam, you can't have a ham sandwich and a cold one. Also, as an Ex-Christian, I will remind you that as a Christian you live under the laws of your God. Because you believe that the law is now written in your heart instead of tablets of stone makes no difference, you are under the law. You didn't take a leap into grace, but into religion. duderonomy, "Ironhorse, if Biblical grace were grace according to what I was always taught, "unmerited favor" from Biblegod, no leap would be necessary. Every human being would be saved by God's grace. The fact that some aren't means that obviously there is something one must do to earn such a state of grace." I think our disagreement is in the way we view free will. I believe that God took the biggest gamble ever by creating humans with free will. He could have just as easily created "puppets on a string" with a happy happy happy world for him to control. You want that? We could not even be having this discussion if that had happened. So, if we don't like the idea of a tyrant, I don't think God does either. You miss points on purpose. I get that you are trying to direct the topic towards your POV, but have you even considered my point of view? If yes, tell me about it. If no, STFU already. In answer to your asinine question; Yes, I would rather have a tyrant force me into Biblical Heaven if Biblical Hell were the only alternative. Where does free will fit under that umbrella, ye who are still under the law of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 I think our disagreement is in the way we view free will. I believe that God took the biggest gamble ever by creating humans with free will. He could have just as easily created "puppets on a string" with a happy happy happy world for him to control. How can an omniscient god take a gamble? Once again, your god definition has adjusted rather conveniently to match your point. Also, there are many alternatives to a god creating us as either (1) worship puppets or (2) hell kindling. This is just typical christian dichotomous thinking that can easily be discredited. An example of the many alternatives god would have had is that he could reveal himself to all of us equally, instead of hiding; so that we wouldn't have to trust other humans to tell us about him. And, if he wanted us to freely choose, he could have given us a fair choice. Saying, "worship me or burn forever" is not a choice (see post #14 and others). To me, the typical 'free will cuz god didn't want no puppets' assertion make no sense, since heaven would be full of humans who made the choice to worship based on not wanting to burn in hell, which pretty much fits the definition of fake happy puppets anyway. If he didn't want puppets, why create such an overwhelming, fear inducing punishment for unbelief? Since you agree that we need to clearly define free will, please give us your definition, Ironhorse. Do you agree with Sdelsolray's proposed definition in Post #6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The very fact that we are biologically programmed to avoid pain and/or non-existence takes away our ability to choose. It's easy to toss around philosophical concepts when one is fairly comfortable… but go watch those who are on the edge of survival, or study the psychology of torture. People will generally (minus a FEW exceptions) do ANYTHING to avoid pain… which is why torture is a poor way to get to the truth. It's why people will end up eating each other in dire circumstances.. or kill to defend themselves. Yes, regular, ordinary people will revert to a barbarous state when pushed. It's why children make such deadly soldiers or thieves when hungry.. they have not yet developed (from socialization) a mature conscience. It's not evil… it's survival instinct.. programmed into our very psyche. Deep… almost unbearably strong. Go two weeks without food (I've done it) and find out just what you will consume when starving or what you would do to obtain food. All the high and mighty 'morals' go out the window once that survival instinct kicks in. Free will is a fantasy… it does not exist in any creature that is mortal or feels pain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2014 I take my son to a candy store and tell him, "Boy, you can have anything in this candy store you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue." Does my son have free will? god takes his child to the store of life and says, "Child, you can have anything in this life you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will cast you into hellfire and eternal damnation." Does god's child have free will? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I take my son to a candy store and tell him, "Boy, you can have anything in this candy store you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue." Does my son have free will? god takes his child to the store of life and says, "Child, you can have anything in this life you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will cast you into hellfire and eternal damnation." Does god's child have free will? As you state it, I don't see why not Prof. If it is a warning of the consequences A and B. You are saying "anything" when anything is not in the candy store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2014 I take my son to a candy store and tell him, "Boy, you can have anything in this candy store you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue." Does my son have free will? god takes his child to the store of life and says, "Child, you can have anything in this life you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will cast you into hellfire and eternal damnation." Does god's child have free will? As you state it, I don't see why not Prof. If it is a warning of the consequences A and B. You are saying "anything" when anything is not in the candy store. You lost me after "As you state it", End3. Could you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Threat of punishment for making the wrong decision influences the decision-making process. Free will cannot exist where influence does exist. You're either free too choose without influence or you're not. The way I see it, the biblical case for free will is beyond faulty. It's outright laughable to even consider that we have such a thing as my example above illustrates. Besides, free will is largely the smaller factor when you consider what things most influence our belief... Such as, the place on the planet in which we're born. Add to this, this god wants to torment you for the mere fact of being deceived. You don't believe in this god because x, y or z and any of those reasons are good enough for you but unfortunately, you're wrong are doomed to everlasting torment. Why anyone would want to serve that god is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I take my son to a candy store and tell him, "Boy, you can have anything in this candy store you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue." Does my son have free will? god takes his child to the store of life and says, "Child, you can have anything in this life you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will cast you into hellfire and eternal damnation." Does god's child have free will? As you state it, I don't see why not Prof. If it is a warning of the consequences A and B. You are saying "anything" when anything is not in the candy store. You lost me after "As you state it", End3. Could you elaborate? Just trying to say that there never seems to be more than a dichotomy for humanity. I would think it valid to define freedom with just two choices. And now there are three allowing grace. And as an aside, Even within our reality, I would think it exceedingly difficult to predict "beneficial/life/good" for everyone base on perception. So even without omniscience, humanity fails. Then I guess we could get into what God would create, but I'm not sharp enough to ponder the possibilities and outcomes. So, I fail and choose to do bad...and fail Or, I fail and choose to follow the rules of good....and still fail. Or, I fail and choose to faithfully do good per my limitations....and still fail, but get graded from the standpoint of the limitations. And as I speculate, even the most non-religious would be hard pressed to say we don't fail on many levels. And this is all predicated on we know what the meaning is for ourselves if there is one to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Here's a version of "free-will" that christians everywhere abhor: A muslim goes and holds a sharp knife over some victim. The victim goes "please don't kill me!" The muslim: "Convert to islam or you're dead! But hey look! I'm giving you a choice! You can choose to be a muslim or you can choose this knife slicing your throat open!" merciful jesus/yaweh/yeshitwa/allah, loving and gracious he is. However christians can't see their own double standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Annnnnd the christian yet again fails. Hard. End3 forgets (or chooses to forget) the point. The god of the bible and the koran says that people must choose him or suffer death. But with muslims, christians are repulsed by this very idea. However they can't see that what they're offering to people is the exact same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Threat of punishment for making the wrong decision influences the decision-making process. Free will cannot exist where influence does exist. You're either free too choose without influence or you're not. The way I see it, the biblical case for free will is beyond faulty. It's outright laughable to even consider that we have such a thing as my example above illustrates. Besides, free will is largely the smaller factor when you consider what things most influence our belief... Such as, the place on the planet in which we're born. Add to this, this god wants to torment you for the mere fact of being deceived. You don't believe in this god because x, y or z and any of those reasons are good enough for you but unfortunately, you're wrong are doomed to everlasting torment. Why anyone would want to serve that god is beyond me. Interesting thought because you bring up the issue of why does God not tell A&E about hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Annnnnd the christian yet again fails. Hard. End3 forgets (or chooses to forget) the point. The god of the bible and the koran says that people must choose him or suffer death. But with muslims, christians are repulsed by this very idea. However they can't see that what they're offering to people is the exact same thing. No, it wasn't choosing Him, it was allowing for personal responsibility......there was no choose me or death in Gan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 "there was no choose me or death in Gan. " What the hell is "gan" Whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. What you said goes against the book you profess to believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Free will is definitely a stupid way to justify the existence of a loving god that doesn't intervene. The same christians that talk about god not wanting to interfere with anyone's free will are the ones that thank him for everything he does. Do they not see the irony? Do you think they thank him when their sons don't return from war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 "No, it's not the same leap as a radical Islamist. I can take my leap with a ham sandwich and a cold glass of beer. I'm not jumping into law, but grace. I didn't guess...I just took the leap." ironhorse I guess you are saying that since your leap of faith doesn't cost you anything, so what the hell. It's free! So, since it's free, you're giving up nothing? Not much a leap is it? But the word "leap" implies a risk of losing something or at least some cost. If that is so, on what did you base your decision? If not based upon reason or emotion, on what? And what did you think you stood to lose by taking the "leap"? Or what did you expect it to cost you? I'm truly curious about this. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 "As a believer the thing that helped me was, when taking the "leap of faith" towards God, I did not gauge my relationship in Christ simply by my feelings or emotions. I just accepted Christ in faith." ironhorse That is the same faith that radical Islamist rely on. Tell me, how do you have faith without reason or emotion? What's left but guesswork? bill No, it's not the same leap as a radical Islamist. I can take my leap with a ham sandwich and a cold glass of beer. I'm not jumping into law, but grace. I didn't guess...I just took the leap. Why do you continue to deny your childhood religious indoctrination? You lie. To others and yourself. You took no leap at all. You were force fed a particular religion as a child. You will have little chance of deconverting until you first admit this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2014 I take my son to a candy store and tell him, "Boy, you can have anything in this candy store you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue." Does my son have free will? god takes his child to the store of life and says, "Child, you can have anything in this life you want; but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will cast you into hellfire and eternal damnation." Does god's child have free will? As you state it, I don't see why not Prof. If it is a warning of the consequences A and B. You are saying "anything" when anything is not in the candy store. You lost me after "As you state it", End3. Could you elaborate? Just trying to say that there never seems to be more than a dichotomy for humanity. I would think it valid to define freedom with just two choices. And now there are three allowing grace. And as an aside, Even within our reality, I would think it exceedingly difficult to predict "beneficial/life/good" for everyone base on perception. So even without omniscience, humanity fails. Then I guess we could get into what God would create, but I'm not sharp enough to ponder the possibilities and outcomes. So, I fail and choose to do bad...and fail Or, I fail and choose to follow the rules of good....and still fail. Or, I fail and choose to faithfully do good per my limitations....and still fail, but get graded from the standpoint of the limitations. And as I speculate, even the most non-religious would be hard pressed to say we don't fail on many levels. And this is all predicated on we know what the meaning is for ourselves if there is one to be had. You miss the point, End3. As soon as I attach a punishment for genuinely choosing what the boy wants, I've taken his freedom away from him. I have shifted the focus away from what he would choose, as an expression of who he is, and instead focused the entire situation on what I want him to choose. He is now left with only two options: let me make the choice for him (by him choosing what he knows I want him to), or take a severe beating that is totally disproportionate to him having chosen a lollipop over joo-joo bees. This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Actually the free-will arguement never really stands properly, While you could say God does not intervene the problem with this is that God giving us free will means that we end up in a predestined state to burn for eternity. If I had free will I could simply choose to opt out of a Heaven and/or Hell. Next Jesus came to earth and preached a message and performed many miracles and wonders - God never had a problem back then of tampering with free will to prove his existance. And finally Yahweh throughout the entire old testament had no problem interfearing with peoples free will. Look at the Pharaoh in Egypt God hardened his heart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Twisting the words yet again. Tour guide saying "follow me through the rapids or else you might drown" -Tour guide was warning of the dangers ahead -Tour guide did NOT create the dangers, he was not in control of anyone's life Robber says "give me all your money or else you will die" -Robber was also warning of the danger -Robber DID create the danger in the first place, he has the gun, he has the power, he was in control of his victim's life If the robber goes to trial for shooting the victim, the christian defense lawyer has this argument -"Your honor, that man was not murdered. That man CHOSE TO DIE because he did not give over all his money. It was free will, it was a choice! It was suicide!" -"Your honor, that atheist CHOSE TO DIE because he did not choose to do you bidding. It was free will! He sent himself to hell!" The above is readily seen as abominable to anyone but christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I have heard this argument in various forms from the time I was a young child: God couldn't intervene to do X, because he didn't want to violate our free will. But what about the fact that I called out to God, begging him to give me any sign that he was there for me? Wasn't I using my 'free will' to find God? If he even gave me one uplifting and encouraging thought, it would have helped me remain a christian and it would NOT have violated my free will, since I freely chose him. Jesus said, "ask and ye shall receive." I asked him to help me become closer to him when my faith was dwindling. I pleaded and begged him to strengthen my faith. I guess you could say, I willed it as much as any human with free will could. I chose him freely. Would it have violated my free will for him to have helped me believe he was real? I offered myself to Jesus for years. I was a willing participant in the 'relationship'. I put him above everything in my life... even felt guilty that I might actually love my sons more. It was a gradual, painful process, but eventually I realised he wasn't there. I was only torturing myself with a self-made mental illness. My question is, how would God helping me remain christian violate my free will when I was willing to follow him all along? I read your post. I'm trying to understand. "But what about the fact that I called out to God, begging him to give me any sign that he was there for me?" What "sign" were you looking for? Jesus had no problem fucking about with people and turning a man blind for Critizising Joesphs work as a kid - So why stop fucking when he got killed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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