What Defines And Drives A Relationship

[Ravenstar]

I think moving this thread would be a mistake. If the argument had some valid foundation it would be different, but it is proselytization, not philosophy that is happening here.

 

​It would be moved back in short order… I'm thinking.

 

Just my humble opinion.

[Ravenstar]

K… playing nice  

[florduh]

Apparently some members would like a serious discussion. I live to serve, so I moved it as requested.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

To be brutally honest, it's not that End3 can't construct logical arguments.  I submit that he can, and he's demonstrated that on other threads where religion's not concerned.  I actually agreed with him a few times and you know he and I don't get along.

 

It's the christian religion that's illogical to begin with.

 

You know that parable about building a house on sand vs. foundation?  We've proven time and again that christianity's worse than sand, and yet the christians continually use it.  Why?  The alternative is the 'red-pill.'

This illustrates the point I am trying to make very well.

 

Actually... no it doesn't.  Sorry End, but I have to call as it is.  

 

If we can't sacrifice to move off of our personal positions, that is, commune, and know, and have a relationship with the other, then the thread will be locked, figurative "death". 

 

The Den isn't a place where we Lions want to sacrifice anything, where we want to commune with any Christians and where we want to have a relationship with them.  The Den is a place where Christians are toast.  Where they enter at their peril.  Where the Lions prowl round, looking for Christian meat to devour.

 

Going to Africa and asking a (real) lion that's about to attack you to stop and commune with you is a death sentence, End.  

Ditto here. You really, really have to stop thinking that the Den is a safe place for you.  It isn't.  In the Den, we Lions are under no obligation or expectation to treat you kindly, with respect or with tolerance.  We simply won't entertain your appeals to faith or your speculations.  Instead we'll tear apart your faulty arguments, your flawed logic and your mistakes.

 

Yes, this thread will die - but that won't be because we lack a meaningful relationship with you, End.

No. It'll be because you've blithely walked into the Den with the word, "Prey" written on your metaphorical forehead, wrongly expecting us NOT to attack and kill you.   Lions attack and kill.  It's what we do.  There are no exceptions.  You are not exempt - no matter how much you think you should be!

 

If we take the time to HEAR the other through paining ourselves. then we might understand each other more....which is life. No one wants isolation. This site proves it.

 

The Den is not a place where the Lions go to hear or understand Christians.  

It's where they go to kill and eat them.  That's why it's called the Lion's Den.  This isn't our version of the Book of Daniel, where God closes the mouths of the lions and his servant goes unharmed.  Nope!  It's our version of the Roman Coliseum, where Christians are killed and eaten by us.  Stop thinking of this place as somewhere safe, End!  It isn't.  Go elsewhere.   Please.

 

And it's described in John 17 in my opinion. If this thread moves any further, great. If not, it pretty much makes the case in my mind.

 

 

End...

 

I'm pleading with you on this one.  

Can't you see?  Don't you understand?  Don't you get it?  

 

Your calls for tolerance, understanding and better relationships between us will ALWAYS be ignored by us in the Den.

Your expectations of tolerance, understanding and respect from us will ALWAYS be met with relentless, merciless attacks.

Your desire to change what happens in the Den will ALWAYS fail because what happens in here isn't up to you.

Your belief that the Den and the Lions should change will ALWAYS get you into trouble, because that belief is just wrong.

 

Your whole understanding of what the Den is and how it works is... W-R-O-N-G...!

 

Please go elsewhere - somewhere you'll get the tolerance and respect you (wrongly) think should be in force here.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Have PMed two mods and made it known openly that I would like to get the thread moved. What more do I need to do BAA?

 

 

Good move.

.

.

.

 

But it's not a case of what you needed to DO, but what you need to understand, End.

 

Do you now understand that the Den is under no obligation to be as you think it should be?

Do you now understand that the Lions in the Den are under no obligation to behave as you think they should?

Do you now understand that any Christian who enters the Den can expect no pity, no mercy and no escape from us?

[mikey101]

but it is proselytization, not philosophy that is happening here.

 

 

I agree. Christians in an Ex-Christian forum are not here to make friends. Also, it would be apparent if they were actually trying to learn something.

[bornagainathiest]

 

but it is proselytization, not philosophy that is happening here.

 

 

I agree. Christians in an Ex-Christian forum are not here to make friends. Also, it would be apparent if they were actually trying to learn something.

 

 

Then let's see if End has understood and learned what the Den is really for.

[Guest end3]

 

 

but it is proselytization, not philosophy that is happening here.

 

I agree. Christians in an Ex-Christian forum are not here to make friends. Also, it would be apparent if they were actually trying to learn something.

 

 

Then let's see if End has understood and learned what the Den is really for.

 

And then if I behave as the Den does, ..."oh what a dick you are End".

[Guest end3]

Ok, I am turning the Den mode off and would open the floor to discussion.

 

Thanks,

[mikey101]

 

 

but it is proselytization, not philosophy that is happening here.

 

 

I agree. Christians in an Ex-Christian forum are not here to make friends. Also, it would be apparent if they were actually trying to learn something.

 

 

Then let's see if End has understood and learned what the Den is really for.

 

LOL apparently not.  

[bornagainathiest]

 

And then if I behave as the Den does, ..."oh what a dick you are End".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be brutally honest, it's not that End3 can't construct logical arguments.  I submit that he can, and he's demonstrated that on other threads where religion's not concerned.  I actually agreed with him a few times and you know he and I don't get along.

 

It's the christian religion that's illogical to begin with.

 

You know that parable about building a house on sand vs. foundation?  We've proven time and again that christianity's worse than sand, and yet the christians continually use it.  Why?  The alternative is the 'red-pill.'

This illustrates the point I am trying to make very well.

 

Actually... no it doesn't.  Sorry End, but I have to call as it is.  

 

If we can't sacrifice to move off of our personal positions, that is, commune, and know, and have a relationship with the other, then the thread will be locked, figurative "death". 

 

The Den isn't a place where we Lions want to sacrifice anything, where we want to commune with any Christians and where we want to have a relationship with them.  The Den is a place where Christians are toast.  Where they enter at their peril.  Where the Lions prowl round, looking for Christian meat to devour.

 

Going to Africa and asking a (real) lion that's about to attack you to stop and commune with you is a death sentence, End.  

Ditto here. You really, really have to stop thinking that the Den is a safe place for you.  It isn't.  In the Den, we Lions are under no obligation or expectation to treat you kindly, with respect or with tolerance.  We simply won't entertain your appeals to faith or your speculations.  Instead we'll tear apart your faulty arguments, your flawed logic and your mistakes.

 

Yes, this thread will die - but that won't be because we lack a meaningful relationship with you, End.

No. It'll be because you've blithely walked into the Den with the word, "Prey" written on your metaphorical forehead, wrongly expecting us NOT to attack and kill you.   Lions attack and kill.  It's what we do.  There are no exceptions.  You are not exempt - no matter how much you think you should be!

 

If we take the time to HEAR the other through paining ourselves. then we might understand each other more....which is life. No one wants isolation. This site proves it.

 

The Den is not a place where the Lions go to hear or understand Christians.  

It's where they go to kill and eat them.  That's why it's called the Lion's Den.  This isn't our version of the Book of Daniel, where God closes the mouths of the lions and his servant goes unharmed.  Nope!  It's our version of the Roman Coliseum, where Christians are killed and eaten by us.  Stop thinking of this place as somewhere safe, End!  It isn't.  Go elsewhere.   Please.

 

And it's described in John 17 in my opinion. If this thread moves any further, great. If not, it pretty much makes the case in my mind.

 

 

End...

 

I'm pleading with you on this one.  

Can't you see?  Don't you understand?  Don't you get it?  

 

Your calls for tolerance, understanding and better relationships between us will ALWAYS be ignored by us in the Den.

Your expectations of tolerance, understanding and respect from us will ALWAYS be met with relentless, merciless attacks.

Your desire to change what happens in the Den will ALWAYS fail because what happens in here isn't up to you.

Your belief that the Den and the Lions should change will ALWAYS get you into trouble, because that belief is just wrong.

 

Your whole understanding of what the Den is and how it works is... W-R-O-N-G...!

 

Please go elsewhere - somewhere you'll get the tolerance and respect you (wrongly) think should be in force here.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Have PMed two mods and made it known openly that I would like to get the thread moved. What more do I need to do BAA?

 

 

Good move.

.

.

.

 

But it's not a case of what you needed to DO, but what you need to understand, End.

 

Do you now understand that the Den is under no obligation to be as you think it should be?

Do you now understand that the Lions in the Den are under no obligation to behave as you think they should?

Do you now understand that any Christian who enters the Den can expect no pity, no mercy and no escape from us?

 

 

You don't have to answer these, End.

 

But seeing as I've recently put in a lot of work in this forum with you in mind, it might be the polite and courteous thing for you to do.

[mymistake]

Okay End3, would you be so kind as to repeat and clarify your entire argument?  This would be greatly appreciated.  Remember vagueness is the enemy.

[Guest end3]

At this point we are talking figurative life vs. death through inclusion vs. isolation. Sacrificing, making intimate knowledge known, behavior modification all in the interest of being known to the other person where they are comfortable in their shortcomings as well. I think this process yields God for lack of a better word. The definition of logos fits in here somewhere.

[Roz]

Until End3 retracts his claim trying to tie human fellowship with his very specific religion (John 17 has been repeatedly claimed by him), then he cannot then attempt to say:

 

"It's not uncommon for people to take the position that creation is God. If the created is God and the Creator is also God, then this gives rise to discussions like panantheism.

It's a discussion of ideas Roz. I would welcome your input. "

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/65391-what-defines-and-drives-a-relationship/?p=1004163

 

The bait and switch tactic is not conducive to conversation, it's a blatantly dishonest argument.

 

This is the colloseum, as such formal debate rules apply.  What End3 is attempting to do is present his very specific religion and then attempting to hide it under very generalized concepts about god.

 

This is a forum where we attack the arguments themselves, so that is what I am doing.  Ignoring his arguments would only hinder the intent of the subforum.

[bornagainathiest]

At this point we are talking figurative life vs. death through inclusion vs. isolation. Sacrificing, making intimate knowledge known, behavior modification all in the interest of being known to the other person where they are comfortable in their shortcomings as well. I think this process yields God for lack of a better word. The definition of logos fits in here somewhere.

 

 

A figurative understanding of life vs. death will not help you construct a valid, logically-sound argument, End.

 

You're trying to frame a valid, logically-sound argument for why relationships are important in this forum, remember? 

 

Figurative understandings play no part in that.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Let me see if I'm understanding you, End3.  It seems to me that you're saying that because all of life, and in fact, all of the kosmos, is connected, which it is, then there must be some greater force (i.e. "god") perpetuating said connectedness.

 

Am I understanding what you're saying?

[Guest end3]

 

At this point we are talking figurative life vs. death through inclusion vs. isolation. Sacrificing, making intimate knowledge known, behavior modification all in the interest of being known to the other person where they are comfortable in their shortcomings as well. I think this process yields God for lack of a better word. The definition of logos fits in here somewhere.

 

 

A figurative understanding of life vs. death will not help you construct a valid, logically-sound argument, End.

 

You're trying to frame a valid, logically-sound argument for why relationships are important in this forum, remember? 

 

Figurative understandings play no part in that.

 

I don't think I have to discuss in any particular style BAA. I get your point though. I will more than likely violate the mode you suggest...it's nothing against you.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

At this point we are talking figurative life vs. death through inclusion vs. isolation. Sacrificing, making intimate knowledge known, behavior modification all in the interest of being known to the other person where they are comfortable in their shortcomings as well. I think this process yields God for lack of a better word. The definition of logos fits in here somewhere.

 

 

A figurative understanding of life vs. death will not help you construct a valid, logically-sound argument, End.

 

You're trying to frame a valid, logically-sound argument for why relationships are important in this forum, remember? 

 

Figurative understandings play no part in that.

 

I don't think I have to discuss in any particular style BAA. I get your point though. I will more than likely violate the mode you suggest...it's nothing against you.

 

 

A logical argument isn't an exercise in style, it's a tool for you to make your case about relationships with.

 

If you want that tool then that's the way you've got to go.  I don't use a dentist's drill to mow the lawn.  It's not the right tool for the job.

 

So, do you want to frame a logical argument about the importance of relationships in this forum?  

 

Or not?  

 

It's your call.

[Guest end3]

Let me see if I'm understanding you, End3.  It seems to me that you're saying that because all of life, and in fact, all of the kosmos, is connected, which it is, then there must be some greater force (i.e. "god") perpetuating said connectedness.

 

Am I understanding what you're saying?

And is responsible for the origin of the specific connectedness we call life.

 

I think the connectedness that is not defined as life follows the same principles that we see played out in human interaction.....the pushes and pulls of personalities being moderately analogous to the pushes and pull of atoms or the pushes and pulls of galaxies....but one discussion at a time. We are on life and death in the figurative sense at the moment please.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

At this point we are talking figurative life vs. death through inclusion vs. isolation. Sacrificing, making intimate knowledge known, behavior modification all in the interest of being known to the other person where they are comfortable in their shortcomings as well. I think this process yields God for lack of a better word. The definition of logos fits in here somewhere.

 

 

A figurative understanding of life vs. death will not help you construct a valid, logically-sound argument, End.

 

You're trying to frame a valid, logically-sound argument for why relationships are important in this forum, remember? 

 

Figurative understandings play no part in that.

 

I don't think I have to discuss in any particular style BAA. I get your point though. I will more than likely violate the mode you suggest...it's nothing against you.

 

 

A logical argument isn't an exercise in style, it's a tool for you to make your case about relationships with.

 

If you want that tool then that's the way you've got to go.  I don't use a dentist's drill to mow the lawn.  It's not the right tool for the job.

 

So, do you want to frame a logical argument about the importance of relationships in this forum?  

 

Or not?  

 

It's your call.

 

I guess the broadest term I could use to describe this conversation would be philosophical.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, by "life" you mean positive connection and interpersonal interaction and by "death" you mean negative interaction--selfishness and the like?

[Guest end3]

So, by "life" you mean positive connection and interpersonal interaction and by "death" you mean negative interaction--selfishness and the like?

Yes, that we could accurately predict what positive interactions are necessary to promote "life" in another. The rest is by default "death".

 

So essentially it's a sequential transfer of "logos" from God to Christ to the apostles to disciples to the world.

 

Evidence is this so far:

 

1) humanity can not define the origin of life

2) communion/community seems essential for humans. (not talking about the religious practice)

[mymistake]

Writing clearly instead of vaguely isn't about style.  It is about good communication.  You don't want your reader to wonder "Well, what does that mean?".

[Ravenstar]

But.. community is essential for all life, not just humans. We can't ignore that.. even the simplest organisms survive because of their relationships… to each other and the environment. It isn't a special human thing… and is very apparent in even the simplest life forms. Even viruses, which are by definition not even really alive exist because of relationship.

 

I'm sorry but maybe I'm missing the point of this special designation for humans.

[Roz]

 

So, by "life" you mean positive connection and interpersonal interaction and by "death" you mean negative interaction--selfishness and the like?

Yes, that we could accurately predict what positive interactions are necessary to promote "life" in another. The rest is by default "death".

 

So essentially it's a sequential transfer of "logos" from God to Christ to the apostles to disciples to the world.

 

Evidence is this so far:

 

1) humanity can not define the origin of life

2) communion/community seems essential for humans. (not talking about the religious practice)

 

 

More illogical arguments.

 

Evidence 1 and 2 are not valid evidence for "So essentially it's a sequential transfer of "logos" from God to Christ to the apostles to disciples to the world."

 

Yet another chasm that you've created.

[Roz]

(Attempting serious discussion with one such argument presenter is an exercise in patience, that's my thought)