Mythra Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 "That they may be as one as we are one" Uh-huh. I guarantee you that the atheists, theists, deists, pagans, pantheists, agnostics, buddhists, and asatruars who belong to this site are closer to being "as one" than those within Christianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Either way, Jesus made a point through the parable - inciting actions through his followers to use the sword, not matter how you slice it, given that he came to bring the sword (in his own words). If that is your interpretation of it then that is your interpretation of it. What do commentaries say about that particular verse? Have you had a look before jumping to conclusions? It is helpful to see what people who have studied it in depth have to say about it before jumping to conclusions because going by the Matthew verses I showed it doesn't make sense to say Jesus ordered his followers to become murderers. if the bible is so confusing that you have to read other books written by people who studied the religion for 20 years in order to understand what the hell the bible is saying, then I say the bible seems like a pretty useless book. why not just chunk the whole thing and use your own mind to figure things out, in the end after you have done so much interpretation and such that the interpreted meaning no longer even resembles the actual words then essentally you are just using your own mind to decide right and wrong anyway, you've just cloaked your ideas as being Gods ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Sitting in a Church doesn't make you a Christian nor does sitting in McDonalds make you a hamburger. If there are 30,000 sects then how many actually honour God? And if they are all (or most) about honoring God then who cares if they disagree on minor interpretation issues? Does it make Jesus' forgiveness any less real? First off, all you did was steal a quote from Keith Green. 2nd there are more than minor differences, many sects of christianity disagree about things as basic as how one is saved, The catholic church to name one. Oh but I forgot the Catholic church aren't really real christians, even though it was the only church for about one thousand years.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Has God not offered forgiveness for sins? Has God not poured out His Spirit on His people? Where is the failed prophesy? EVEN IF this prophecy was related to Jesus in any way: No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' We have MILLIONS of Christian Churches doing exactly this. Failed prophecy. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that * * men shall speak, they shall give account thereof * * in the day of judgment. Ro 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. Clearly God will still REMEMBER sins if we need to give account. What you described is a *possibility* of forgiveness, not the reality thereof. Failed prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I better get out of here before I puke all over the Colosseum. For someone who's supposed to be The Listener, he sure is doing an awful lot of this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Have a look at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/boyers/default.htm Especially http://www.abc.net.au/rn/boyers/stories/s1504869.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Peter Jensen is not an apologist, he gives a theological point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Sitting in a Church doesn't make you a Christian nor does sitting in McDonalds make you a hamburger. If there are 30,000 sects then how many actually honour God? And if they are all (or most) about honoring God then who cares if they disagree on minor interpretation issues? Does it make Jesus' forgiveness any less real? So you're sure you're in the right sect this time? You've been wrong before you know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 f we think of him as a failed prophet, we keep our integrity, but it is difficult to explain why he has been so significant in the history of the world. this statement from the article you posted is complete foolisness and renders everthing he says afterwards useless. There are plenty of lies and stupid ideas that have persisted for long periods of time and had large effects on people. By this set of reasoning Islam is also true, since it has had significant effects in history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 And Buddha, and Einstein, and Darwin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 And the flying spaghetti monster... Read the whole article dude, he explains it very clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Sitting in a Church doesn't make you a Christian nor does sitting in McDonalds make you a hamburger. If there are 30,000 sects then how many actually honour God? And if they are all (or most) about honoring God then who cares if they disagree on minor interpretation issues? Does it make Jesus' forgiveness any less real? And welcome to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy... I was begining to wonder when that one would turn up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I came this far and got upset: ...Jesus became the man — but still only a man — who introduced true religion to the world... Says who? The author thinks so, but 2/3:d of the world does NOT! There's 1.2 billion people that are Muslims and scared of the "True" religion. So Jesus didn't introduce the true religion, he introduced a religion. One out of many. And again, Christianity is not ONE religion, but about 37,000 different sects of Christians. Do you count Armenian church to your fold? Do you count the Catholics? Do you count the Word of Faith movement? Do you count Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and so forth? That article is BULLSHIT, since it presupposes a Christian world view, and not common ground. The author is just a religious dogmatic ignoramus, with a degree prefixed to his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 That is your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Yup. It is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 That article is BULLSHIT, since it presupposes a Christian world view, and not common ground. It also presupposes that Jesus was a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 And the flying spaghetti monster... Read the whole article dude, he explains it very clearly. I have read most of the article and it is filled with logical falicies, a piori asupmptions and all the general crap that most apolgetics is full of. His "explanation" is worth about as much as a belief is Jesus is worth, which is to say nothing at all He talks of all the amazing things that Jesus says, but shows his ignorance of other religions, because many other religious texts say amazing things as well. For my money I'll take the Tao Te Ching any day over the bible. Why don't you give it a read? It says some really incredible stuff, I've read the bible and found it lacking, can you say the same for other peoples religious beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 For me, the claims and promises in the Koran are too outrageous and sinful to be coming from a Holy God but makes perfect sense when you see a possible motive behind it. Muhammed had personal interests but what personal interest did Jesus or his followers have? What makes you think the Gospel Writers did not have personal interest in the spread of their religion? The book of Hebrews, Acts, and Matthew are full of lies which are based of the OT. The author of matthew is expert at manufacturing prophecies out of verses from the OT, which are not even prophecies at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 For my money I'll take the Tao Te Ching any day over the bible. Same here, and best of all, Lao Tzu also said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light." At least he understand the difference between love and hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 In the New Testament Jesus preached love & peace, not the sword. Have you ever read the other books of the bible 2 Cor 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. The Grand Inquisitor must have smiled when he read 2 Cor 10:5-6. And also their this verse in the bible where it says "their mouths must be shut"(damn i can't remember the exact verse. Could you help me out guy?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 He talks of all the amazing things that Jesus says, but shows his ignorance of other religions, because many other religious texts say amazing things as well. For my money I'll take the Tao Te Ching any day over the bible. Why don't you give it a read? It says some really incredible stuff, I've read the bible and found it lacking, can you say the same for other peoples religious beliefs? Tao Te Ching is the only "religious" book I have respect for. Much better, much deeper and more insight than any other book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 We always find mans wisdom more comforting than God's wisdom who only reveals to us what we need to know, don't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Got news for you, listener. The bible is "man's wisdom". You just don't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Christianity quotes plenty of Old Testament and DOES NOT do away with God at all but fulfills it. The Old testaments lasting ordanences were for that covenant made in Genesis 12:1-3 but God also made clear a new covenant was coming: Jeremiah 31:31-34 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to [a] them, " declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." You are allegeging that this has come to been fulfilled. if the NC of Jeremiah has come to pass, then this raises more questions 1)Why do you convientiantly leave out the following verse when he talks about the NT in Jeriamiah. Jer 31:30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge. 2)Why do christians have to teach other about the law when the text clearly says that God will imprint the laws in our heart 3)if the NC has arrived there is no need for missionaries to spread the word, for everyone would already have it directly from God. 4)If NC has arrived then why do we have to repent for our sins? 5)If NC had already arrived, people would not need to be taught through Bible study or preached to, for every person would know God, just as he promised. For more examples how the book of Hebrew uses this style of verse picking to fit, I present to you the following article Three Key Elements Used In Doctrine Creation Also note the following There is no mention of any type of human sacrifice needed to die for the sins of others. There is no mention of God's existing laws being replaced, canceled, or done away with. Instead god laws are being reaffirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Myrtha, is the Holy Spirit real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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