Vigile Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Yes, and it seems that morality only exists within social constructs, and are natural developments of social constructs...this doesn't make any more or less valuable than an absolute moral system. In the context of society I would argue that morality built on social constructs is much more valuable than an absolutist take on the subject. Morality defined by the general will can have utility in that it looks to serve the greatest good for the greatest number of people whereas an absolutist sense of right and wrong could be very harmful to the whole. For example, "though shall not kill." What if you are in Africa and a child with ebola wanders toward your village? Killing the child would save the village. I'm not sure that there is any value in an absolutist system and would even argue that an absolutist approach would be immoral in most instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 I'm not sure that there is any value in an absolutist system and would even argue that an absolutist approach would be immoral in most instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Am I wrong in reasoning, at the time of Christ, that there was a transition going from absolute to more flexible perspectives of moral values? Ro 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Hey... it's unfortunate The Listener took off like that. Perhaps he/she could of learned more beneficial insights. It can be very anxiety ridden to have one's foundations become shifting and quite rocky so fast! Maybe a little initial erosion would be better to help them find a new place to build while giving them time to see it is coming. Maybe just give a few initial ideas that gives one time to prepare to find a more stable place to settle first? Sometimes if things are happening so fast, and one doesn't know where to go... they just close their eyes and stay where they are. What else can they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hey... it's unfortunate The Listener took off like that. Perhaps he/she could of learned more beneficial insights. It can be very anxiety ridden to have one's foundations become shifting and quite rocky so fast! Maybe a little initial erosion would be better to help them find a new place to build while giving them time to see it is coming. Maybe just give a few initial ideas that gives one time to prepare to find a more stable place to settle first? Sometimes if things are happening so fast, and one doesn't know where to go... they just close their eyes and stay where they are. What else can they do? I think you are quite right Amanda and this highlights yet another danger in holding to an absolute moral system. This kind of certainty may have been advantages to some early civilizations as a "cushion" against a very uncertain world. But with society today changing at such a rapid pace, this certainty becomes a liablity, not an advantage. I guess you could say this type of thinking is "vestigal" for humanity... IMOHO, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asuryan Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Ok, so let's review what happened here. 1 - TheListener refuses to answer about the absoluteness of morality, instead pointing to "jesus" as his morality compass. 2 - CrazyTiger tells him that Jesus sinned, and more than once. 3 - TheListener asks for scriptural quotes. 4 - CrazyTiger invites him to do his homework on his own. 5 - TheListener tries to shift the discussion focus on CrazyTiger's age, which has nothing to do with the topic we're discussing, for no other purpose other than trying to find some material to discredit his words. 6 - CrazyTiger is disgusted, when he tries to reply, TheListener tells him that he feels he has been attacked ad hominem (so he can dish it out but he cannot take it, hm?) 7 - Pritishd gets in and without breaking a sweat writes the exact bible verses that are evidence for the assertions: "working on sabbath was a sin punishable by death", "even something little like picking up sticks was considered working", and "jesus worked on sabbath". 8 - Checkmate. TheListener is unable to speak now. The scripture verses are very clear and pritishd gave verses and chapters so that TheListener could have searched for them himself, were he feeling a bit wary of us. He has been taught that scripture verses ARE ALWAYS RIGHT. He has been taught that JESUS WAS WITHOUT SIN. These two teachings are clashing the one against the other. Now, survival instinct kicks in. He doesn't want, he *Cannot* admit that he was wrong, that we know the scriptures better than him, and that in fact it seems that Jesus sinned: his ego and his faith could be severely shaken. It is much more comfortable to act like he didn't read pritishd. So he writes: "Opinion noted". A very cozy way of escaping. This way, he reduces scriptural evidence, bible verses, AND perfect logic and reasoning, to ...an opinion. This allows him to entirely avoid thinking about it. TheListener is in fact very quick to stop listening as soon as those scripture verses are causing him discomfort. 9 - Someone points at TheListener's avoiding behaviour, and tells him that he could deign himself to try and answer pritishd points instead of escaping the subject with those two words. 10 - Grand Finale: TheListener complains that everything is futile, that coming on this website was useless since we are not listening to him, that this website is useless since we're only repeating the same old atheistic questions and answers he has heard so many times, that we're mobbing him and that it's better for him to go away from here. TheListener -> Stage exit. The audience -> Laughs. The Grand Finale has some weak points though. Too bad that TheListener is not here anymore to answer them, but, oh well... - "coming on this website was useless since we are not listening to him": why did he choose a nickname such as TheListener? This nickname is fallacious and hypocrite: he hasn't come here to Listen, and he should've admitted that. He has come here to Preach, expecting - nay, DEMANDING - for US to listen at him, and with listen, here, he means shutting the fuck up and agreeing on everything he says. - "we're only repeating the same old atheistic questions and answers he has heard so many times before"... If you've heard them all before, dude, WHY weren't you able to answer a SINGLE one of those same old questions while you were here? You never answer, you just run away. Sometimes with an "opinion noted", sometimes just ignoring whole posts addressed to you because they "are offensive" (even when they objectively are not), sometimes by changing the topic (..."How old are you tiger?"). - That "we're mobbing him" and "dogpiling" him. You see, oh jesus' sheep, if you get inside a 5th grade classroom, and you scream to the children: "2 + 2 = 3", all of the children will laugh in your face and both them and the teacher would probably make some remarks on your intelligence and education. Some children would probably insult you ("what are you, stupid?"), some children would submerge you with questions ("why do you say that? We've been taught that 2 + 2 is 4. Explain."), and the teacher (analogy with some of our most cultured exchristians here) would explain to you in detail WHY 2 + 2 is 4. (... and then you scream "opinion noted" and run away while the whole classroom laughs at you...) Would you say that those children are evil, close minded, and are dogpiling and mobbing you? Ok, analysis complete. It was fun. A pity that he will NEVER come back here to read it. Oh, btw, should someone see him speaking ill of us (perverting and lying about everything that happened here of course, what does it matter to him if he lies from now until the end of his days since jesus saved him and washed away his sins anyway?) on his ChristiansWithHorribleHorribleAvatarsForums.com, please notify us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Asuryan, very good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Very true. He even commented when he first arrived that he would never take the "word of man" over that of the gospel. When I asked why he was even here if it doesn't truly intend to debate, he said "the same reason you all go to christian sites: curiosity." (I'm paraphrasing here, can't find the original quote). He was never really a "listener" unless by that he meant, "listens, but doesn't hear." Oh well, I was hoping for another lively debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Brilliant summary Asuryan! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Great summarizing post Asuryan It is quite sad in its own way .... sadder still that he will, most likely, never understand the laughter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 10 - Grand Finale: TheListener complains that everything is futile, that coming on this website was useless since we are not listening to him, that this website is useless since we're only repeating the same old atheistic questions and answers he has heard so many times, that we're mobbing him and that it's better for him to go away from here. TheListener -> Stage exit. The audience -> Laughs. And so it goes with many Christians who come on here. Just keeps making me think of good old Jack Nicholson from A Few Good Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 What gets me is that I was trying not to offend and, for the Lions Den, being polite... Maybe next time I'll just go straight for the throat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 What gets me is that I was trying not to offend and, for the Lions Den, being polite... Maybe next time I'll just go straight for the throat Crazy Tiger, I think you were being polite. So was everyone! What I was trying to say earlier is that when someone becomes overwhelmed with so many earth-shattering concepts all at once, they feel their world crumbling and know of no where to go! I've had a few concepts shattered here, and I tell you... there's a shaky feeling inside. You all probably don't understand this... if there is everything coming down in your world... what would you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 What gets me is that I was trying not to offend and, for the Lions Den, being polite... Maybe next time I'll just go straight for the throat Crazy Tiger, I think you were being polite. So was everyone! What I was trying to say earlier is that when someone becomes overwhelmed with so many earth-shattering concepts all at once, they feel their world crumbling and know of no where to go! I've had a few concepts shattered here, and I tell you... there's a shaky feeling inside. You all probably don't understand this... if there is everything coming down in your world... what would you do? Hmm... I'm not sure, mainly because the only time I was in that position was as a child. (It was when I escaped Christianity, my parents divorced and we had to move to a new area well away from where we used to live... all in the space of a year) Back then, I just accepted that it was happening, figured that life goes on and that it'll work itself out. Nowadays, because I'm a lot more responsible for my life, and because I've got a lot more invested in my worldview... well, I wouldn't be so easygoing. Hopefully, I'd be able to accept it and move on, but I expect I'd grumble about it. (probably grumble quite a bit, to be honest ) What I wouldn't do, is lash out at the cause... it's totally against my nature and, to be honest, a complete waste of valuable energy. (which can be used in much better ways ) Ok, so I can understand why TL lashed out at us... it's natural if you haven't learnt how to deal with that kind of change. That doesn't mean I'm going to excuse someone when they throw the forum version of a tantrum though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Ok, so I can understand why TL lashed out at us... it's natural if you haven't learnt how to deal with that kind of change. That doesn't mean I'm going to excuse someone when they throw the forum version of a tantrum though... Crazy Tiger... I will tell you... hesitently... some of my inner revelations (wake-up calls) happened from a slap from a few of you here. Now mind you... it was a nice slap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Yes, let's look into the context that seemed to confuse those darn Pharisees so much. G...... edit: fixed some quotes Excellant answer. Wanna share notes http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...t=40&p=135046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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