And So We Wait...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

 

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

One thing about some of the posts of some of the people whom BAA mentioned:  they preach something to promote Christian claims, then it's refuted, then after some months they preach the very same thing, without refuting the refutations, as though nothing had been said in reply the first time.

 

Indeed, it's foolish to expect you'll persuade someone over the internet.  If someone doesn't have an solid answer, they probably won't respond.  To continually bring it up doesn't seem to be a fruitful effort, more like an exercise in futility.

 

It is not an exercise in futility.  Rather, it is an effort to do what we can for honest lurkers, doubting christians, and those who have been abused by religious indoctrination.  I consider it both a duty and an honor.

 

For people who have once been Christians, you'd think you understand the difference between a serious believer and a wacky preacher.

 

We do understand the difference.  The lurkers, and those in doubt, may not.  As noted, looking out for them is one of our primary purposes.

[bornagainathiest]

Your "concern" is duly noted, TS.

 

However, the Den and the rest of this forum have functioned perfectly well without your "concern" and will continue to do so with or without it. 

 

For myself, I won't be changing the way I conduct myself here one iota.

 

Have a nice day!  

 

BAA.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

One thing about some of the posts of some of the people whom BAA mentioned:  they preach something to promote Christian claims, then it's refuted, then after some months they preach the very same thing, without refuting the refutations, as though nothing had been said in reply the first time.

 

Indeed, it's foolish to expect you'll persuade someone over the internet.  If someone doesn't have an solid answer, they probably won't respond.  To continually bring it up doesn't seem to be a fruitful effort, more like an exercise in futility.

 

It is not an exercise in futility.  Rather, it is an effort to do what we can for honest lurkers, doubting christians, and those who have been abused by religious indoctrination.  I consider it both a duty and an honor.

 

For people who have once been Christians, you'd think you understand the difference between a serious believer and a wacky preacher.

 

We do understand the difference.  The lurkers, and those in doubt, may not.  As noted, looking out for them is one of our primary purposes.

 

I guess that is a reasonable argument, though given my experiences with the more wacky preachers I wouldn't waste my time on their arguments.  I also think it's pretty apparent to any normally functioning person when they encounter someone like this.

 

Many who have had heavy indoctrination inflicted upon them don't turn out to be normally functioning people.  Often it takes a brutal deconversion for any sense of normalcy to begin for them.

[duderonomy]

Unfruitful debating, TS? Speak for yourself.

 

The Lion's Den has and is doing more for my well being and learning and understanding of all of the facets of belief, emotional baggage, responsibility, being a better person and big words than anything any Christian source ever came close to doing for me. 

 

Maybe a Cultural Christian can't understand that, but there are a lot of people that can. If you don't like the way the Den operates, take some of your brilliant ideas to the administators of the site, or even better, start one of your own.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

 

 

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

One thing about some of the posts of some of the people whom BAA mentioned:  they preach something to promote Christian claims, then it's refuted, then after some months they preach the very same thing, without refuting the refutations, as though nothing had been said in reply the first time.

 

Indeed, it's foolish to expect you'll persuade someone over the internet.  If someone doesn't have an solid answer, they probably won't respond.  To continually bring it up doesn't seem to be a fruitful effort, more like an exercise in futility.

 

It is not an exercise in futility.  Rather, it is an effort to do what we can for honest lurkers, doubting christians, and those who have been abused by religious indoctrination.  I consider it both a duty and an honor.

 

For people who have once been Christians, you'd think you understand the difference between a serious believer and a wacky preacher.

 

 

Even if a "serious believer" or someone capable of productive debate came here, their arguments would still be destroyed by the cold steel of logic.  I say bring it on, we're ready.

 

And if you don't like what we're doing here, there are plenty of other places you can spend your time.  Countless people benefit from our work and as long as xianity is out there fucking up people's lives we will continue.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Unfruitful debating, TS? Speak for yourself.

 

The Lion's Den has and is doing more for my well being and learning and understanding of all of the facets of belief, emotional baggage, responsibility, being a better person and big words than anything any Christian source ever came close to doing for me. 

I understand it's emotionally satisfying to berate what you once were.  My initial objection was regarding this post's intent to get a response from Christians, when this forum is basically setup to not accommodate rational or reasonable discussion.

 

 

 

Maybe a Cultural Christian can't understand that, but there are a lot of people that can. If you don't like the way the Den operates, take some of your brilliant ideas to the administators of the site, or even better, start one of your own.

 My concern has an extent, and it's reached it's limit within this one thread.

 

That setting up a hostile environment doesn't lead to rational discussions.  Just people with emotional baggage to come take a load off on some weird Christian strangers.

 

 

Define "rational discussion".  I think you'll find it requires rationalism on both sides, not just ours.  Don't blame us for the weakness of our opponents.

[mymistake]

I understand it's emotionally satisfying to berate what you once were.  My initial objection was regarding this post's intent to get a response from Christians, when this forum is basically setup to not accommodate rational or reasonable discussion.

 

(snip)

That setting up a hostile environment doesn't lead to rational discussions.  Just people with emotional baggage to come take a load off on some weird Christian strangers.

 

 

False.

 

Christian theology does not have a leg to stand on.  Nobody can successfully defend it.  Every single time Christianity loses the debate.  You are being dishonest when you write this off as mere emotions.

 

And since you can't successfully defend Christian theology you can quit complaining about your concerns.

[Thackerie]

 

 

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

 

 

This is a support forum for ex-christians and people in the process of becoming ex-christians. It's only natural that regular members are suspicious of fundigelicals who come here with what we perceive as an intent to challenge us, insult us, and/or bring us back into the christian cult. In the latter case, in particular, they're like booze salesmen going to an Alcoholic Anonymous meeting and saying, "Here, have a drink. It's good for you."

 

Also, we are aware that these forums are viewed by a lot of lurkers who are still contemplating moving beyond christianity. We question people like Iron Horse and Ordinary Clay intensely so the lurkers can see their shallowness and mendacity exposed -- that is, so they can see why we are no longer christians and thereby make a more well-informed decision with respect to their own religious affiliation or lack thereof. You could consider it a public service.

 

Besides, christians who choose to come to our EX-christian site and post in the Lion's Den are warned in advance. "Aggressive evangelism is permitted in this section, but aggressive evangelists should be ready to be met by equally aggressive resistance. ... An occasionally heated response is allowed and sometimes even encouraged." They know what they have chosen to get into, so I don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

I guess with guidelines like that you can see why there isn't any kind of real debate happening here.  When respect is tossed out the window, any hope of a worthwhile discussion goes out the window.  

 

This seems more like a therapeutic bashing of fundamentalists Christians.  

 

It would be more worthwhile if this section was dedicated to making responses to popular apologists, rather than the kind of Christian you would encounter on this site.

 

Indeed it was this site that lead me to make certain decisions for myself.  That I didn't want to destroy my relationships and life in bitterness over metaphysical issues.  Life is too short imo, but the choice is yours.

 

 

Indeed, as is your choice your own. I personally have no interest in debating christians. I've seen a lot of forums that do feature so-called debates and I find them deadly boring as the christians have nothing new to say. Same old, same old. It would be interesting if they could present evidence to back up their beliefs, but that hasn't happened ever in the past 2000 years.

[mymistake]

 

 

Actually I do, because of the kind of environment you have fostered here.  Really poor quality of opponents is because of the rules of the forum.  I have seen much better arguments other places, for both sides.

 

 

 

Step up to the Arena. 

 

or

 

Step up to the Colosseum 

 

 

When you change the subject to "emotional baggage" that isn't because of the environment or the rules.  Rather you do it because you could not defend your assertions.

[duderonomy]

 

Unfruitful debating, TS? Speak for yourself.

 

The Lion's Den has and is doing more for my well being and learning and understanding of all of the facets of belief, emotional baggage, responsibility, being a better person and big words than anything any Christian source ever came close to doing for me. 

I understand it's emotionally satisfying to berate what you once were.  My initial objection was regarding this post's intent to get a response from Christians, when this forum is basically setup to not accommodate rational or reasonable discussion.

 

 

 

Maybe a Cultural Christian can't understand that, but there are a lot of people that can. If you don't like the way the Den operates, take some of your brilliant ideas to the administators of the site, or even better, start one of your own.

 My concern has an extent, and it's reached it's limit within this one thread.

 

That setting up a hostile environment doesn't lead to rational discussions.  Just people with emotional baggage to come take a load off on some weird Christian strangers.

 

 

Where would you have 'weird Christian strangers' go, Oh Wise and Condecending One?  They are people too. At least they have honest questions most of the time, unlike some Cultural Christians that have a sore crotch from straddling the fence and come here to order up a cup of soup, only so they can bitch about how it's made.

 

You've already shown that your mind is closed to how some things work. You read my post and only saw what you went into it already seeing.

 

You keep calling our shirt dirty...is that making your shirt any cleaner?

[mymistake]

 

 

 

 

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

 

 

This is a support forum for ex-christians and people in the process of becoming ex-christians. It's only natural that regular members are suspicious of fundigelicals who come here with what we perceive as an intent to challenge us, insult us, and/or bring us back into the christian cult. In the latter case, in particular, they're like booze salesmen going to an Alcoholic Anonymous meeting and saying, "Here, have a drink. It's good for you."

 

Also, we are aware that these forums are viewed by a lot of lurkers who are still contemplating moving beyond christianity. We question people like Iron Horse and Ordinary Clay intensely so the lurkers can see their shallowness and mendacity exposed -- that is, so they can see why we are no longer christians and thereby make a more well-informed decision with respect to their own religious affiliation or lack thereof. You could consider it a public service.

 

Besides, christians who choose to come to our EX-christian site and post in the Lion's Den are warned in advance. "Aggressive evangelism is permitted in this section, but aggressive evangelists should be ready to be met by equally aggressive resistance. ... An occasionally heated response is allowed and sometimes even encouraged." They know what they have chosen to get into, so I don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

I guess with guidelines like that you can see why there isn't any kind of real debate happening here.  When respect is tossed out the window, any hope of a worthwhile discussion goes out the window.  

 

This seems more like a therapeutic bashing of fundamentalists Christians.  

 

It would be more worthwhile if this section was dedicated to making responses to popular apologists, rather than the kind of Christian you would encounter on this site.

 

Indeed it was this site that lead me to make certain decisions for myself.  That I didn't want to destroy my relationships and life in bitterness over metaphysical issues.  Life is too short imo, but the choice is yours.

 

 

Indeed, as is your choice your own. I personally have no interest in debating christians. I've seen a lot of forums that do feature so-called debates and I find them deadly boring as the christians have nothing new to say. Same old, same old. It would be interesting if they could present evidence to back up their beliefs, but that hasn't happened ever in the past 2000 years.

 

You're claiming that Christians have never attempted to produce an evidential basis for their beliefs in all the 2000 years of their existence?  

 

This is the kind of irrational arguments I'm talking about here.  Whether you agree with the evidence is another matter, but you made an assertion about the absence of any evidence ever presented.

 

 

 

What a convenient use of the straw man argument.  Thanks for demonstrating an irrational argument.

 

 

 

"It would be interesting if they could present evidence to back up their beliefs, but that hasn't happened ever in the past 2000 years."

 

Notice the part in bold?

 

Notice that the underlined word refers to the part in bold?

 

Notice the words "try" and "attempt" do not appear anywhere?

 

 

If you want to counter what Thackerie said then you must provide an example where Christians successfully used evidence to prove Christianity is reasonable.  If you cannot find one single example then perhaps it hasn't happened in 2,000 years.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

One thing about some of the posts of some of the people whom BAA mentioned:  they preach something to promote Christian claims, then it's refuted, then after some months they preach the very same thing, without refuting the refutations, as though nothing had been said in reply the first time.

 

Indeed, it's foolish to expect you'll persuade someone over the internet.  If someone doesn't have an solid answer, they probably won't respond.  To continually bring it up doesn't seem to be a fruitful effort, more like an exercise in futility.

 

It is not an exercise in futility.  Rather, it is an effort to do what we can for honest lurkers, doubting christians, and those who have been abused by religious indoctrination.  I consider it both a duty and an honor.

 

For people who have once been Christians, you'd think you understand the difference between a serious believer and a wacky preacher.

 

 

Even if a "serious believer" or someone capable of productive debate came here, their arguments would still be destroyed by the cold steel of logic.  I say bring it on, we're ready.

 

And if you don't like what we're doing here, there are plenty of other places you can spend your time.  Countless people benefit from our work and as long as xianity is out there fucking up people's lives we will continue.

 

If you noticed, I spend the majority of my time elsewhere.  Hence the 82 posts, most of which were made in my first period of time spent here under a different name.

 

 

Which name was that, TS..?

 

I ask so that I can go back, check and hold you accountable to the content of those posts.  

[♦ ficino ♦]

A while back, when Ordinary Clay brought up Molinism (don't ask!), I became intrigued and posted some stuff into which I tried to put serious thought. OC replied at first with one or two book and/or website recs, I forget exactly what.  When I formulated what seemed to me a serious problem with how Molinism handles counterfactuals, and when Centauri and some others (sorry, i forget who, now!) brought up biblical problems with the "free will" assertion, OC at first replied by repeating stuff that had already been refuted.  Then he disappeared. 

 

OC came back a few times, and most recently, he brought up Molinism again, as though it's just as attractive as when he brought it up the last time.  But it is not.  So far Molinism (don't ask!) has not cleared itself of at least two major objections.

 

I don't particularly want to debate it.  It's largely a waste of time.  I am somewhat interested in the design of arguments for and against it.  But I consider it a duty to expose what seems wrong with it, since OC at least twice appealed to "God's middle knowledge" as though it's a doctrine that solves the Problem of Evil. 

 

I'm ready to be refuted if my objections don't stand up.  I don't appreciate putting in a lot of effort and then getting little more than dismissive one-liners.

[duderonomy]

I wouldn't even know what Molinism (don't ask!) is if it weren't for you, Ficino.  

[mymistake]

Which name was that, TS..?

 

 

 

 

On his profile his name history shows that he use to go by the handle CautiouslyAgnostic until Jan 20 of this year.

 

However I would not try to hold him accountable to what he previously said because he has been open about his changing theological views.  Back then he had a different outlook.

[midniterider]

 

 

 

(snip)

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

 

 

The Lion's Den IS a very hostile environment for any Christians who enter it, TrueScotsman.

 

They enter at their own peril and should heed the warning given here...

 

Lion's Den Rules

Attention "True Christians™" and former Christians. 

 

This is the section of the board where Christian opinions, arguments, sermons and so on will be more-or-less tolerated. Aggressive evangelism is permitted in this section, but aggressive evangelists should be ready to be met by equally aggressive resistance. 

 

An occasionally heated response is allowed and sometimes even encouraged. However, all posters to the Lion's Den are still expected to adhere the general rules of decorum as delineated in the Forum Guidelines. In other words, conversations in the Lion's Den are intended to be permissively unrestrained without devolving into repetitious verbal abuse. Those who are identified as repeatedly abusive -- in this section or any section of this website -- may be suspended or banned from posting without notice. 

 

Note: In view of the fiery nature of the discussions which occur in the Lion's Den, only those with a fairly thick skin should participate. 

 

For more orderly and serious debate, go to the "Colosseum." 

 

For controlled formal debate, go to the "Arena."

 

Here in the US, if you fail to heed the, "Don't Walk" sign, then you've only got yourself to blame if you get hurt.

 

Anyway TS, why don't you ask me why I'm behaving in this way...?

 

Because some stranger on the internet didn't respond to your critique?

 

 

The forum guidelines don't require a Christian to defend his assertions in order to post here. :-)

 

BAA is more optimistic than I am about Xians answering questions. ha.

[♦ ficino ♦]

As I said, I don't particularly want to spend time debating Molinism - or topics like it.  But if someone introduces it into the Den in a defense of standard Christian doctrine, as though it undermines the "ex-Christianity" of people who come to this site, then I consider it important to subject it to scrutiny.

 

  I also think it important to call someone out on attempts to reintroduce such topics as though no discussion had taken place before.  That's because people who come on here since the earlier discussion, and who may not be familiar with the topic, deserve to know that the reintroduced claim may not be as successful a defense of Christianity as its proponent says it is.

[midniterider]

 

 

 

 

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

 

 

This is a support forum for ex-christians and people in the process of becoming ex-christians. It's only natural that regular members are suspicious of fundigelicals who come here with what we perceive as an intent to challenge us, insult us, and/or bring us back into the christian cult. In the latter case, in particular, they're like booze salesmen going to an Alcoholic Anonymous meeting and saying, "Here, have a drink. It's good for you."

 

Also, we are aware that these forums are viewed by a lot of lurkers who are still contemplating moving beyond christianity. We question people like Iron Horse and Ordinary Clay intensely so the lurkers can see their shallowness and mendacity exposed -- that is, so they can see why we are no longer christians and thereby make a more well-informed decision with respect to their own religious affiliation or lack thereof. You could consider it a public service.

 

Besides, christians who choose to come to our EX-christian site and post in the Lion's Den are warned in advance. "Aggressive evangelism is permitted in this section, but aggressive evangelists should be ready to be met by equally aggressive resistance. ... An occasionally heated response is allowed and sometimes even encouraged." They know what they have chosen to get into, so I don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

I guess with guidelines like that you can see why there isn't any kind of real debate happening here.  When respect is tossed out the window, any hope of a worthwhile discussion goes out the window.  

 

This seems more like a therapeutic bashing of fundamentalists Christians.  

 

It would be more worthwhile if this section was dedicated to making responses to popular apologists, rather than the kind of Christian you would encounter on this site.

 

Indeed it was this site that lead me to make certain decisions for myself.  That I didn't want to destroy my relationships and life in bitterness over metaphysical issues.  Life is too short imo, but the choice is yours.

 

 

Indeed, as is your choice your own. I personally have no interest in debating christians. I've seen a lot of forums that do feature so-called debates and I find them deadly boring as the christians have nothing new to say. Same old, same old. It would be interesting if they could present evidence to back up their beliefs, but that hasn't happened ever in the past 2000 years.

 

You're claiming that Christians have never attempted to produce an evidential basis for their beliefs in all the 2000 years of their existence?  

 

This is the kind of irrational arguments I'm talking about here.  Whether you agree with the evidence is another matter, but you made an assertion about the absence of any evidence ever presented.

 

 

Why does a person need evidence of Something that is supposed to be alive and well and able to do anything...like appear to me in person and have a chat? But never does that for me or anyone at all? Yet Xians say "he wants a personal relationship with you...." lol. right.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This is generally how people formulate theories or world views, they amass evidence and then based upon that evidence propose an explanation for those body of facts.  A theist could use such arguments as the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, fine tuning, the cosmological argument, the moral argument, etc. as evidence from a rational basis, which then would be discussed for it's merits.   

 

This is patently untrue, at least in the case of most theists.  Most theists decide what their worldview is going to be and then go looking for evidence to support it, such as fine tuning, the cosmological "argument", etc.  They may occasionally change bits and pieces of their worldview in light of new "evidence"; but the overall belief system remains intact.

[bornagainathiest]

 

As I said, I don't particularly want to spend time debating Molinism - or topics like it.  But if someone introduces it into the Den in a defense of standard Christian doctrine, as though it undermines the "ex-Christianity" of people who come to this site, then I consider it important to subject it to scrutiny.

 

  I also think it important to call someone out on attempts to reintroduce such topics as though no discussion had taken place before.  That's because people who come on here since the earlier discussion, and who may not be familiar with the topic, deserve to know that the reintroduced claim may not be as successful a defense of Christianity as its proponent says it is.

That's a reasonable response, that though the opponent quality might be low, it's simply an opportunity to state an argument for lurkers to enjoy.  

 

Calling out people for arguments made a year ago is a bit excessive though imo.

 

 

I kept on the YEC Christian Rayskidude's case for over eighteen months.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/user/4907-rayskidude/#.VMaVcP6sUuk

 

In the end I exposed him as a liar and he quit this forum shortly after.

 

Other members thanked me for doing this.

 

And I would do the same again in a nanosecond.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

As I said, I don't particularly want to spend time debating Molinism - or topics like it.  But if someone introduces it into the Den in a defense of standard Christian doctrine, as though it undermines the "ex-Christianity" of people who come to this site, then I consider it important to subject it to scrutiny.

 

  I also think it important to call someone out on attempts to reintroduce such topics as though no discussion had taken place before.  That's because people who come on here since the earlier discussion, and who may not be familiar with the topic, deserve to know that the reintroduced claim may not be as successful a defense of Christianity as its proponent says it is.

That's a reasonable response, that though the opponent quality might be low, it's simply an opportunity to state an argument for lurkers to enjoy.  

 

Calling out people for arguments made a year ago is a bit excessive though imo.

 

Ficino didn't call OC out for an argument he made a year ago; he called OC out for an argument he made just a few weeks ago.  It just happened to be the same argument as before.

[midniterider]

This is generally how people formulate theories or world views, they amass evidence and then based upon that evidence propose an explanation for those body of facts.  A theist could use such arguments as the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics, fine tuning, the cosmological argument, the moral argument, etc. as evidence from a rational basis, which then would be discussed for it's merits.   

 

 

Maybe Jesus could go on TV and tell us about these things? Or host a State of Christianity address. Seems to me that a jealous and narcissistic God like the one in the bible would be all over TV.

[florduh]

Most theists decide what their worldview is going to be and then go looking for evidence to support it...

 

 

You are so correct, Professor.

 

Again, facts, logic and evidence can never win against a blind faith that relies upon denying facts, logic and evidence.

[Thackerie]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do people here have nothing better to do then keep tabs on who responded to what?  Other forums I have been to, I have never seen this kind of behavior.  It makes for a very hostile environment and I don't blame them for not obliging. 

One thing about some of the posts of some of the people whom BAA mentioned:  they preach something to promote Christian claims, then it's refuted, then after some months they preach the very same thing, without refuting the refutations, as though nothing had been said in reply the first time.

 

Indeed, it's foolish to expect you'll persuade someone over the internet.  If someone doesn't have an solid answer, they probably won't respond.  To continually bring it up doesn't seem to be a fruitful effort, more like an exercise in futility.

 

It is not an exercise in futility.  Rather, it is an effort to do what we can for honest lurkers, doubting christians, and those who have been abused by religious indoctrination.  I consider it both a duty and an honor.

 

For people who have once been Christians, you'd think you understand the difference between a serious believer and a wacky preacher.

 

 

Even if a "serious believer" or someone capable of productive debate came here, their arguments would still be destroyed by the cold steel of logic.  I say bring it on, we're ready.

 

And if you don't like what we're doing here, there are plenty of other places you can spend your time.  Countless people benefit from our work and as long as xianity is out there fucking up people's lives we will continue.

 

If you noticed, I spend the majority of my time elsewhere.  Hence the 82 posts, most of which were made in my first period of time spent here under a different name.

 

 

Sorry you don't enjoy this forum as do so many of us, but if it doesn't meet your needs and offends you so much, you are indeed wise to spend your time elsewhere.

 

[Guest Furball]

and so again....we wait