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Did Jesus Sin?


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But how did Jesus break several OT laws when Jesus was without sin?

Many christian will claim that Jesus lived a sinless life. However the Gospel clearly showed that he broke many laws of the OT, and in fact he actually promoted situational ethics. However the OT laws, do not give any provision for situational ethics. The laws had to be strictly implemented.

 

The Gospels show that Jesus sinned in the following ways

 

1)working on a Sabbath

2)Disregarding God's Food Prohibition

3)Claiming to be god himself

4)Introducing Blood drinking ritual

5)Participating in the Pagan ritual of baptism

6)Lied under interogation

7)Failed to uphold the law when a women was found guilty of adultery

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Precisely - no wonder that Jesus, the son of Biblegodzilla should break his daddy's laws for Biblegodzilla himself broke them time and again/

 

How many times in the Holah Babble is Biblegodzilla depicted deceiving people for the sake of making enemies out of them, murdering innocent people (women and children included - remember the last plague on Egypt?), commit the sin of jealousy by being jealous of the gods of other nations (remember the First Commandment?), behave arrogantly by demanding total worship and adoration, and so on and so forth? How many sins has Biblegodzilla comitted according to his very own laws?

 

The facts are clear - if you read the Holah Babble, you'll see that the two biggest sinners on the whole book are Jesus and his demon of a daddy.

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Jesus also commanded the disciples to dishonor their parents. "Hate your father and mother..."

 

And he was rude to his mom and siblings too.

 

He deserved to be stoned.

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Precisely - no wonder that Jesus, the son of Biblegodzilla should break his daddy's laws for Biblegodzilla himself broke them time and again/

 

How many times in the Holah Babble is Biblegodzilla depicted deceiving people for the sake of making enemies out of them, murdering innocent people (women and children included - remember the last plague on Egypt?), commit the sin of jealousy by being jealous of the gods of other nations (remember the First Commandment?), behave arrogantly by demanding total worship and adoration, and so on and so forth? How many sins has Biblegodzilla comitted according to his very own laws?

 

The facts are clear - if you read the Holah Babble, you'll see that the two biggest sinners on the whole book are Jesus and his demon of a daddy.

Off course God cannot sin, since he has morality gene

 

God Is Perfectly Good Because He Has A Morality Gene

If this morality gene floating around inside God is actually valid, God then becomes a programmed "holy" being, subject to the code of an imagined holy gene that supersedes God's ability to change his mind or deviate from the standard.

 

The Christian God cannot simply be assumed to possess an objective moral standard.

 

An objective moral standard has the following elements:

 

1. It is free of bias: free of any bias or prejudice caused by personal feelings..

 

2. It is based on facts: based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions.

The holy morality gene that Christians place in their God is a function of their personal feelings and is based on the opinion that their version of God must be the one true God.

Any believer in any "God" can make exactly the same claims about their God, and the moral standard of one particular God may not agree with the moral standard of another.

One God may command his followers to pray only while sitting in a chair while another God may command that all prayer must be performed standing up.

Both commands are moral laws coming from an all powerful deity or "God".

Where is the "objective" moral standard here? There is none.

At best, the Christian God would possess a subjective moral standard.

 

A subjective moral standard would exhibit the following:

 

1. It is not impartial: based on somebody's opinions or feelings rather than on facts or evidence.

 

2. It exists by perception: existing only in the mind and not independently of it.

 

The Christian version of God cannot be said to encompass an objective moral standard because the existence of this standard is based on the "feelings"(i.e. speculations) of believers and cannot be confirmed outside of their mental projections and beliefs.

The Christian theological construct of an ultimate objective moral standard is an entirely subjective enterprise and results in a subjective product at the end.

.........

Although Christians advertise their God as having an unchanging character which contains an absolute standard for morality, God's moral law changed and the definition of sin was changed.

This type of system is moral relativism and represents ethics based on situation.

What was previously a sin and immoral, is now quite acceptable.

Under this system, sin is not based on an absolute standard, but is based on one that changes with the times and depends on the situation.

 

God's whim also enters into this morality equation as he displays favoritism with his people.

The application of punishment for violation of God's moral code is selective.

For example, God's moral law states that doing any kind of work on the Sabbath is a sin(Exo 31:14-15), and when a man violated the law by gathering sticks on the Sabbath, he was ordered to be put to death by God(Num 15:32-36).

Adultery is also a sin which calls for the death penalty(Deut 22:22).

However when King David, who was a personal favorite of God, violated the moral law on adultery he is given an exemption from the death penalty and the punishment is instead applied to his son, which is then struck by God with an illness and dies.(2 Sam 12:9-18).

This killing of the son by God for the sin of the father is a violation of another moral law which states that each man will die for his own sin:

 

Deut 24:16

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The Christian God circumvents his own moral law when it suits him to do so.

The ultimate irony is then displayed when the Bible, the alleged word of this God, states that God does not practice favoritism(Rom 2:11).

 

Contrary to the Christian assertion that the morality gene which their God possesses is not arbitrary or subject to his whims, the evidence shows that the exact opposite is true and God's moral standard is not fixed on any absolute definition of sinful behavior.

 

 

Christian claim that God came on earth, and showed them how to live a sinless life. However once you scratch beneath the surface of this hollow claim, you realise this was certainly not the case. This is one of the reasons why Jews don't JC as their messiah. The messiah is supposed to implement the torah, not break it.

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I do think that Jesus did sin, however I do believe his character in these stories offered a coping skill to resolve them out of our life. These following are suppose to be 'missing the mark' I suppose? I know many of you wonderful people here, that I respect immensely, can't imagine this... but please stretch your imagination that the character portrayed by Christ was attempting to send a liberating message for those times...

 

1)working on a Sabbath

Emphasizing to these that got derailed, that the sabbath was made for man... not man for the sabbath! I think you all could agree with that!

2)Disregarding God's Food Prohibition

Please! It's not what goes into the mouth... but out of the mouth that defiles us! Can you see that in the condescending attitudes of a sect we know of that visits here time to time? :scratch:

3)Claiming to be god himself
It is uplifting for self esteem to think it not robbery to be equal to God! If God is within us, then let that aspect of us be us!
4)Introducing Blood drinking ritual

This only says that we are ALL related by our blood. This makes us related to each other in the human race. We're ALL brothers and sisters. Hey... we can be nice to the other animals that are our cousins too. :wicked:

5)Participating in the Pagan ritual of baptism
Nothing wrong with being born again, released from an old way of thinking. Freed from the guilt we've carried for no reason, it was mostly imposed on us from someone else anyway!
6)Lied under interogation
I have no idea what you're talking about here. I assume that was a far stretch!
7)Failed to uphold the law when a women was found guilty of adultery
Oh yeah... let's down the guy for a little compassion. Was she not reprimanded enough? So let me see... are you all implying she should of been killed... and that is what you feel would of validated this character called Christ? I'm curious to know if someone else could of drawn a more appropriate line in these regards that would make all of us follow your suggested role model? :scratch:

 

C'mon you guys! Things are not entirely black and white, are they? Can anyone here see shades of gray? Is EVERYONE all good or all bad? :shrug:

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But how did Jesus break several OT laws when Jesus was without sin?

Many christian will claim that Jesus lived a sinless life. However the Gospel clearly showed that he broke many laws of the OT, and in fact he actually promoted situational ethics. However the OT laws, do not give any provision for situational ethics. The laws had to be strictly implemented.

 

The Gospels show that Jesus sinned in the following ways

 

1)working on a Sabbath

2)Disregarding God's Food Prohibition

3)Claiming to be god himself

4)Introducing Blood drinking ritual

5)Participating in the Pagan ritual of baptism

6)Lied under interogation

7)Failed to uphold the law when a women was found guilty of adultery

 

Finally a more organized topic. But first I would like you to list what verses prove this claim. Cite the OT law and NT passage indicating that Jesus broke it. But only cite them if I haven't in the following...

 

Allow me to let you know the Biblical stance on Jesus right off the bat, as it states in Hebrew 4:15:

 

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."

 

That as well as John 8:29; 1 Peter 2:22 explains how Jesus was without sin quite clearly. Also if Jesus broke the law of God He would not be able to become the spotless sacrifice for our sins (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 1:18-19).

 

1.) As far as working on the Sabbath, I think you are referring to Mark 2:23-24. What is happening is you failing to grasp the circumstances in the situation presented. On a certain sabbath day, "Christ and his disciples were passing through a grain field. The disciples, being hungry (Mt. 12:1), began to pluck ears of grain and to husk them with their hands (Lk. 6:1). The Pharisees saw the Lord’s men, and began to question Jesus as to why his disciples did that which was “not lawful” on the sabbath. These are the basic facts of the episode. Let us analyze the case." SOURCE

 

You are also forgetting that the Mosaic Law made provisions for such an occasion that really the disciples are being blamed and the Pharisees are looking to make Jesus accountable as well. Those provisions for the law are spelled out Hebrew law made provision for those in need to eat when they passed through a field of grain in Deuteronomy 23:25 and Ruth 2:2-3.

 

2.) Be more specific please.

 

3.) Indeed, Jesus was God. The Bible is clear about the Messiah.

 

4.) What verses, OT and NT please...

 

5.) How was it a pagan ritual?

 

6.) How/when did Jesus lie under interrogation?

 

7.) They were not to judge someone because they were just as guilty. They all were with sin.

 

I do think that Jesus did sin, however I do believe his character in these stories offered a coping skill to resolve them out of our life. These following are suppose to be 'missing the mark' I suppose? I know many of you wonderful people here, that I respect immensely, can't imagine this... but please stretch your imagination that the character portrayed by Christ was attempting to send a liberating message for those times...

 

1)working on a Sabbath

Emphasizing to these that got derailed, that the sabbath was made for man... not man for the sabbath! I think you all could agree with that!

2)Disregarding God's Food Prohibition

Please! It's not what goes into the mouth... but out of the mouth that defiles us! Can you see that in the condescending attitudes of a sect we know of that visits here time to time? :scratch:

3)Claiming to be god himself
It is uplifting for self esteem to think it not robbery to be equal to God! If God is within us, then let that aspect of us be us!
4)Introducing Blood drinking ritual

This only says that we are ALL related by our blood. This makes us related to each other in the human race. We're ALL brothers and sisters. Hey... we can be nice to the other animals that are our cousins too. :wicked:

5)Participating in the Pagan ritual of baptism
Nothing wrong with being born again, released from an old way of thinking. Freed from the guilt we've carried for no reason, it was mostly imposed on us from someone else anyway!
6)Lied under interogation
I have no idea what you're talking about here. I assume that was a far stretch!
7)Failed to uphold the law when a women was found guilty of adultery
Oh yeah... let's down the guy for a little compassion. Was she not reprimanded enough? So let me see... are you all implying she should of been killed... and that is what you feel would of validated this character called Christ? I'm curious to know if someone else could of drawn a more appropriate line in these regards that would make all of us follow your suggested role model? :scratch:

 

C'mon you guys! Things are not entirely black and white, are they? Can anyone here see shades of gray? Is EVERYONE all good or all bad? :shrug:

 

And she comes out swinging!

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But Amanda

 

If you take that approach, then you make the God of the Old Testament out to be false and a liar. You cannot have it both ways. How you/God then possibly hold it against the Jews that they refuse to believe Jesus the Messiah, when it was God that told them what to look for. Jesus didn’t resemble that = therefore they are right to assert that he was no Messiah.

 

It's a slippery slope ...

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But Amanda

 

If you take that approach, then you make the God of the Old Testament out to be false and a liar. You cannot have it both ways. How you/God then possibly hold it against the Jews that they refuse to believe Jesus the Messiah, when it was God that told them what to look for. Jesus didn’t resemble that = therefore they are right to assert that he was no Messiah.

 

It's a slippery slope ...

 

God did tell them what to look for. Jesus even pointed it out to them. Yet they were blind to see it.

 

Try this site, it explains it quite well. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-reject-Jesus.html

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God did tell them what to look for. Jesus even pointed it out to them. Yet they were blind to see it.

 

Try this site, it explains it quite well. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-reject-Jesus.html

 

That site seems full of the standard liguistic contortions that Xians use to make it seem like Jesus is the perfect fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies. But when only a few experts in Jewish law think that and most disagree that Jesus is the messiah, it becomes harder to accept. And when Jewish experts lay down the reasons why they do not accept Jesus, it becomes pretty clear that Jesus just doesn't cut it.

 

http://www.messiahtruth.com/prophets.html

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God did tell them what to look for. Jesus even pointed it out to them. Yet they were blind to see it.

 

Try this site, it explains it quite well. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-reject-Jesus.html

 

That site seems full of the standard liguistic contortions that Xians use to make it seem like Jesus is the perfect fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies. But when only a few experts in Jewish law think that and most disagree that Jesus is the messiah, it becomes harder to accept. And when Jewish experts lay down the reasons why they do not accept Jesus, it becomes pretty clear that Jesus just doesn't cut it.

 

http://www.messiahtruth.com/prophets.html

 

http://www.messianicassociation.org/profiles.htm

 

We can copy paste links all night long...

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God did tell them what to look for. Jesus even pointed it out to them. Yet they were blind to see it.

Please properly qualify your statement. What did God tell them to look out for, and how did Jesus confirm this? Please site your verses.

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We can copy paste links all night long...

 

All in a snit because I pasted a link that contains very factual information that refutes your argument? How mature.

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But Amanda

 

If you take that approach, then you make the God of the Old Testament out to be false and a liar. You cannot have it both ways. How you/God then possibly hold it against the Jews that they refuse to believe Jesus the Messiah, when it was God that told them what to look for. Jesus didn’t resemble that = therefore they are right to assert that he was no Messiah.

 

It's a slippery slope ...

:)Thunderbolt... I fully respect what you are saying! Thank you! :thanks:

 

I don't know... I'll admit by default, maybe he was not the messiah they were seeking. :shrug:

 

I know that the OT was written by a group barely out of the last ice age. It seems to have been written by ancient people that had recently started a stable life style instead of their nomadic one. According to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, perhaps this step of self actualization brought altruistic ideas into their heads they attributed to 'God' speaking to them. These people who wrote the OT were only human doing their best to bring an element of civilization out of a totally barbaric state, IMHO. They also seem to have added mythology of their past and of the many others that wandered into their communities, to bring reconcilitation and peace. Maybe they were just trying to piece a puzzle together to bring unity? It seems these altruistic ideas of standards of righteousness got out of control. Many started to define themselves by their piety, elevating themselves at the expense of others. (Much like the religous right tends to do) A character called Jesus, a social revolutionist amongst other things, came in to bring equality back to the people and self esteem back to those that were oppressed. Myths have been super-imposed upon him and his image has been hijacked by others to assert their own agendas. However, I do believe some of his teachings, before they were perverted, do have merit! :shrug:

 

Sub Zero, my friend, trust me on this one... we have more to learn on this site than to teach! Please keep an open mind... and if your foundations are shaken a bit... look logically at the truth, and you will end on a more solid ground. It's easy to run, yet stick around and with time here... the ground under you will become more stable. :wink:

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3.) Indeed, Jesus was God. The Bible is clear about the Messiah.

 

Yes the Torah is Extremely clear about who is and isn't a prophet. The Torah was (Is ) The law. The first 5 books of Moses which are the only 5 books that contain the laws and instruction to live by According to the people Pre and Durring Christ's time. In the book of Deuteronomy it is explained in fine and extreme detail as to find out how to know a false prophet from a real one. Christians don't read these verses and don't take off the Jesus goggles to see exactly what it's saying. I'll post them here. Remember in reading this that Christ didn't yet exist so anything Christ does that goes against the LAW is consider breaking the Torah Mitzvah (Commandments) Which is also a sign he is a False god.

 

a) Deuteronomy 13:1-3

 

13:1 If prophets or those who divine by dreams appear among you and promise you omens or portents, 13:2 and the omens or the portents declared by them take place, and they say, "Let us follow other gods" (whom you have not known) "and let us serve them," 13:3 you must not heed the words of those prophets or those who divine by dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.

 

b ) Deuteronomy 13.6-8:

 

13:6 If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend--saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, 13:7 any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, 13:8 you must not yield to or heed any such persons.

 

c) Deuteronomy 17

 

17:2 If there is found among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, and transgresses his covenant 17:3 by going to serve other gods and worshiping them--whether the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden-- . . . 17:5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or that woman who has committed this crime and you shall stone the man or woman to death.

 

D) Deuteronomy 18.

 

18:10 No one shall be found among you who makes a son or daughter pass through fire, or who practices divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, 18:11 or one who casts spells, or who consults ghosts or spirits, or who seeks oracles from the dead. 18:12 For whoever does these things is abhorrent to the LORD; it is because of such abhorrent practices that the LORD your God is driving them out before you. 18:13 You must remain completely loyal to the LORD your God. 18:14 Although these nations that you are about to dispossess do give heed to soothsayers and diviners, as for you, the LORD your God does not permit you to do so.

 

 

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We'll start with the issue of Sabbath before I address the other.

 

1.) As far as working on the Sabbath, I think you are referring to Mark 2:23-24. What is happening is you failing to grasp the circumstances in the situation presented. On a certain sabbath day, "Christ and his disciples were passing through a grain field. The disciples, being hungry (Mt. 12:1), began to pluck ears of grain and to husk them with their hands (Lk. 6:1). The Pharisees saw the Lord’s men, and began to question Jesus as to why his disciples did that which was “not lawful” on the sabbath. These are the basic facts of the episode. Let us analyze the case." SOURCE

 

You are also forgetting that the Mosaic Law made provisions for such an occasion that really the disciples are being blamed and the Pharisees are looking to make Jesus accountable as well. Those provisions for the law are spelled out Hebrew law made provision for those in need to eat when they passed through a field of grain in Deuteronomy 23:25 and Ruth 2:2-3.

 

Well for starters christians are not even sure whether he broke the sabbath or not. A lot christians say he did

 

http://www.bible.ca/7-sabbath.htm

 

Jesus taught that the Sabbath should be broken, if it conflicted with a higher law of God like human compassion! At times, Jesus broke the Sabbath without sin

 

Never the less I suppose you want to contend that he did not break the sabbath.

 

forgetting that the Mosaic Law made provisions for such an occasion that really the disciples are being blamed and the Pharisees are looking to make Jesus accountable as well

Deuteronomy 23:25 (New International Version)

25 If you enter your neighbor's grainfield, you may pick kernels with your hands, but you must not put a sickle to his standing grain.

 

Ruth 2:2-3

2 And Ruth the Moabitess said to Naomi, "Let me go to the fields and pick up the leftover grain behind anyone in whose eyes I find favor."

 

The pharisees were not accusing him of picking corns, they were accusing him and disciples of breaking the sabbath. Nowhere in the above verse does it say u can pluck corn on a sabbath.

 

Lets see how the law really works

 

Exodus 16

24And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

25And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

26Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

27And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

30So the people rested on the seventh day.

 

As we can see the law clearly states you are not allowed to work in the field on the sabbath. all work needed to be done on the six days that god had provided. He even said that he'll provide for the bread for the sabbath, even if they had none.

 

This law was so important that breaking of this law attracted the death penalty

 

Exodus 31

12And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

 

So observance of the sabbath was meant to be kept on eternal, and was binding on all the generation to come.

 

Any alien who wanted to join God's fold was supposed to observe the sabbath.

 

Isa 56:1-8

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

 

The violation of this law and it's consequences are illustrated below:

 

Num 15:32-36

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

God required that a man who was found gathering sticks(or wood) on the Sabbath be put to death by being stoned by the whole assembly.

 

Gathering sticks and plucking grains was considered work and if such work was done on sabbath, it resulted in the death penalty.

 

Jesus as a Jew, and his disciples that were Jewish, would be bound by this very law as the law is eternal and no exemptions for ever given by God. The Pharisees had every right, and obligation, to stone, at the very least, the disciples who gathered the food. According to Matthew 5:17-20 jesus and his disciples should should be considered the least of heaven for violating and teaching this strange interpretation of the law.

 

lastly God had declared in the OT that all of his law(including the OT) are eternal.

 

Psa 119:160(NIV)

All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.

 

The law would include also the keeping of the sabbath and are still binding on the followers of God. Yet christian violate this law every week by going to church on a Sunday(which has Mithric/Pagan origins), rather than on the saturday. Funny how christian adopt foriegn customs when their God explicitly told to NOT to do so.

 

Lev 20:23,26

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

 

Jer 10:2-5

Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

 

These actions by modern day and early Christians laugh in the face of the instructions God gave in the Old Testament.

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4)Introducing Blood drinking ritual

 

 

4.) What verses, OT and NT please...

 

 

Original Testament (OT) : These are Torah Laws, anything going against these laws is considered breaking the laws of God. Notice that all sacrifices had to be done a certain way, pay particular attention to the Substitution laws. Also, Christ was wounded and not salted, and not done at the temple so was never sacrificed the way it was instructed (not counting that only animals counted and only if the temple was available, there are other ways for atonement, Prayer and Yom Kipper) Looking into the law that Christ was bound to live by, it's impossible to think that Christ is the god of the Jews, Sacrifice in Jewish law is nothing even remotely close to what the xtains think it is. it kinda puts a damper on your belief.

 

Laws for Repenatance , Blood and sacrafice:

 

To repent and confess wrongdoings: number 5:7

 

Not to eat blood Lev. 3:17

 

To offer only unblemished animals Lev. 22:21

Not to dedicate a blemished animal for the altar Lev. 22:20

Not to slaughter it Lev. 22:22

Not to sprinkle its blood Lev. 22:24

Not to burn its fat Lev. 22:22

Not to offer a temporarily blemished animal Deut. 17:1

Not to sacrifice blemished animals even if offered by non-Jews Lev. 22:25

Not to inflict wounds upon dedicated animals Lev. 22:21

To redeem dedicated animals which have become disqualified Deut. 12:15

To offer only animals which are at least eight days old Lev. 22:27

Not to offer animals bought with the wages of a harlot or the

animal exchanged for a dog Deut. 23:19

Not to burn honey or yeast on the altar Lev. 2:11

To salt all sacrifices Lev. 2:13

Not to omit the salt from sacrifices Lev. 2:13

 

 

 

Laws of Sacrificial Procedure

 

The Kohanim must eat the remains of the meal offerings Lev. 6:9

To bring all avowed and freewill offerings to the Temple on the first subsequent festival Deut. 12:5-6

Not to withhold payment incurred by any vow Deut. 23:22

To offer all sacrifices in the Temple Deut. 12:11

To bring all sacrifices from outside Israel to the Temple Deut. 12:26

Not to slaughter sacrifices outside the courtyard Lev. 17:4

Not to offer any sacrifices outside the courtyard Deut. 12:13

 

 

Laws of Substitution of Sacrifices

 

Not to substitute another beast for one set apart for sacrifice Lev. 27:10

The new animal, in addition to the substituted one, retains consecration Lev. 27:10

Not to change consecrated animals from one type of offering to another Lev. 27:26

 

You can view all 613 laws Here 613 commandments

 

New T.

 

 

 

Drinking blood even in a ritual substitute is appalling to any practicing Jew. It was against the LAW.(as cited above) Christ say's at the last supper,

1 Corinthians 11:25

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. (KJV)

 

and eating of Flesh (Cannibalism is also a pagan ritual, and NO Practicing Jew would do this either) Only pagans thought they could eat parts of god to become god like, this is not a Jewish Belief, it's a strong pagan one.

 

Communion is a practice held by almost all Christian sects, it's one of their corner stones, it is not based on anything Jewish, or anything out of the Original Laws, in fact it goes against the laws.

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4)Introducing Blood drinking ritual

 

 

4.) What verses, OT and NT please...

 

 

Original Testament (OT) : These are Torah Laws, anything going against these laws is considered brea....f..,,,

 

Let's keep it focused guys, let him address point no 1

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The pharisees were not accusing him of picking corns, they were accusing him and disciples of breaking the sabbath. Nowhere in the above verse does it say u can pluck corn on a sabbath.

 

Lets see how the law really works

 

Exodus 16

24And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

25And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

26Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

27And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

30So the people rested on the seventh day.

 

As we can see the law clearly states you are not allowed to work in the field on the sabbath. all work needed to be done on the six days that god had provided. He even said that he'll provide for the bread for the sabbath, even if they had none.

 

This law was so important that breaking of this law attracted the death penalty

 

Exodus 31

12And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

 

So observance of the sabbath was meant to be kept on eternal, and was binding on all the generation to come.

 

Any alien who wanted to join God's fold was supposed to observe the sabbath.

 

Isa 56:1-8

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

 

The violation of this law and it's consequences are illustrated below:

 

Num 15:32-36

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

God required that a man who was found gathering sticks(or wood) on the Sabbath be put to death by being stoned by the whole assembly.

 

Gathering sticks and plucking grains was considered work and if such work was done on sabbath, it resulted in the death penalty.

 

Jesus as a Jew, and his disciples that were Jewish, would be bound by this very law as the law is eternal and no exemptions for ever given by God. The Pharisees had every right, and obligation, to stone, at the very least, the disciples who gathered the food. According to Matthew 5:17-20 jesus and his disciples should should be considered the least of heaven for violating and teaching this strange interpretation of the law.

 

lastly God had declared in the OT that all of his law(including the OT) are eternal.

 

Psa 119:160(NIV)

All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.

 

The law would include also the keeping of the sabbath and are still binding on the followers of God. Yet christian violate this law every week by going to church on a Sunday(which has Mithric/Pagan origins), rather than on the saturday. Funny how christian adopt foriegn customs when their God explicitly told to NOT to do so.

 

Lev 20:23,26

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

 

Jer 10:2-5

Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

 

These actions by modern day and early Christians laugh in the face of the instructions God gave in the Old Testament.

 

Deuteronomy 23:25 and Ruth 2:2-3. The disciples were NOT working, they did not "wield a sickle" but were hungry. Clearly even on the Sabbath, it is OK to go and pick some to eat like the disciples were doing.

 

Also what you are forgetting with Matthew 12 is that it was "His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat." The Law CLEARLY states that it is OK to go about and pick through the heads of grain, even on the Sabbath if you are hungry.

 

You are forgetting about the NEW COVENANT. And of course the law is eternal, it is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

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http://www.messianicassociation.org/profiles.htm

 

We can copy paste links all night long...

 

You do know that Messianic Jews believe that the laws of the OT needs to be kept.

 

Messianic Google Group Discussing About The Law( Will we be punished if we do not keep Mosaic Law?)

 

We must be honest with ourselves here. If "to fulfill" in this passage really meant that he came to 'end' or 'finish' the law, then why did he say immediately before that He had not come to destroy it, and immediately after that the law would not be finished until heaven and earth had passed away?

 

Conservative Christians pride themselves on making straightforward interpretations of the written text of scripture, but bend over backwards to make mat 5:17 say something that is does not. Apparently the idea that God desires of us to observe the law is frightening enough

that many of us are willing to give up our standards of strict interpretation.

 

Please go through it and read it.

 

Just goes to shows the confusion there is amongst christians and "heretical messianic jews" about the status of the law.

 

Also it is interesting to witness the "Christian Love" in the thread.

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Deuteronomy 23:25 and Ruth 2:2-3. The disciples were NOT working, they did not "wield a sickle" but were hungry. Clearly even on the Sabbath, it is OK to go and pick some to eat like the disciples were doing.

 

It is sin to pick up sticks but it's allright to pluck corn. I see :scratch:

 

In Gastrich vs Barker debate, Dan Barker had raised a point about how cruel it was to kill a man for picking up sticks for the firewood, who was probably doing to it to feed his family. Do you what Jason's response was - "He could have gone hungry for a day for the lord". I wished Dan had asked him "So why couldn't the disciples do the same?"

 

Also what you are forgetting with Matthew 12 is that it was "His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat." The Law CLEARLY states that it is OK to go about and pick through the heads of grain, even on the Sabbath if you are hungry.

 

Show me where does it CLEARLY says that you are allowed to pluck grains ON THE SABBATH?Where is the exception to the sabbath law given in the OT?

 

The verse in exodus clearly prohibits to work in the field on the sabbath whether with a sickle or with your hands. The prohibition of work on the sabbath law did not say picking up stick was work, yet a man was killed for the same reason.

 

You were supposed to pluck your grains on the 6 days that God gave you.

 

You are once again inserting your own qualifiers to the rules to the Sabbath laws, and I have already told you that your God has forbidden you to do so.

 

You are forgetting about the NEW COVENANT. And of course the law is eternal, it is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

 

In other words you are telling me that you don't obey it? Funny heh

 

Or do you want to imply that jesus is observing the sabbath for in heaven?

 

Fundies claim that laws about sexuality are still effective, yet the same laws about the sabbath are not. They claim that 10 commandments are the perfect laws, but they keep violating the one of the them, because they want to observe the pagan origin of the sabbath.

 

There is nothing in the OT which says that during the New Convenant that a faith in a human sacrfice/messiah would exempt you from following the law.

 

SHOW ME VERSES FROM THE OT WHICH SAYS THAT LAWS WOULD NOT NEED TO BE FOLLOWED UNDER THE NC.

 

Even in those verses that Jesus said about he fulfilling it, has heaven and earth have passed? Has all the things have been fulfilled?

 

Therefore the laws are still binding.

 

So once again you are demonstrating your conflict with what you want to do and what god wants you to do?

 

If the laws are everlasting, that means they are still binding.

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Picking up sticks is worthy of death but plucking corn is not, though there is no verse justifying the latter. As usual, the Holah Babble is full of contradictions and the so-called "word of Gawd" can't even be clear on a simple point of law. No wonder people throw away the whole hypocritical mess.

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Picking up sticks is worthy of death but plucking corn is not, though there is no verse justifying the latter. As usual, the Holah Babble is full of contradictions and the so-called "word of Gawd" can't even be clear on a simple point of law. No wonder people throw away the whole hypocritical mess.

 

Plucking Corn would have been worthy of death as it was a form of working in the field. Not even cows or strangers were allowed to lift a finger to work during the Sabbath. In other words, All fields are off limits during the Sabbath to everyone.

 

The only exception of any type of work was to help someone who was dying, or someone giving birth. One could not go walking thru the fields to eat just because they were hungry, it was considered a slap in the face to god. Hence Christ slapped god in the face and broke one of the Sacred Torah laws. Which would also be a sign that he was a false prophet to any Jew who knew about it.

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Oh, ya heathens, dun't ya know? Jestus didn't break the law 'cause he was the Sun of Gawd, an' Suns of Gawds can break their own laws if they wanna, an' we know he was the Sun of Gawd 'cause he said so, an' we know he told the truth 'bout being the Sun of Gawd, 'cause he was the Sun of Gawd, so there ya havit y'all! An' we all know this 'cause is says so in the Babble.

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Oh, ya heathens, dun't ya know? Jestus didn't break the law 'cause he was the Sun of Gawd, an' Suns of Gawds can break their own laws if they wanna, an' we know he was the Sun of Gawd 'cause he said so, an' we know he told the truth 'bout being the Sun of Gawd, 'cause he was the Sun of Gawd, so there ya havit y'all! An' we all know this 'cause is says so in the Babble.

Finally! A voice of reason! There you have it folks, the question has been settled. :grin:

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