mymistake Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Do you think the bible is a book for understanding the soul not the universe. Nope. I think the Bible was invented so that Rome could better subdue it's empire. Rome needed a religion that could unite Europe under a single culture. And it worked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 The editor is driving me nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 God used people to write his message to the world. People are imperfect. We are all sinners. We miss the mark of perfection. The Bible is filled with stories of imperfect people. David is a good example. Paul called himself the chief of sinners. This being true does not mean they were wrong about what they wrote about the revelation they received from God. The message God wanted told is true. Let's deconstruct this. P1 "God used people to write his message to the world." P2 "People are imperfect. We are all sinners. We miss the mark of perfection. The Bible is filled with stories of imperfect people. David is a good example. Paul called himself the chief of sinners." C1 "[P2] being true does not mean they were wrong about what they wrote…" (from P2) P3 "[They] received revelation from God." P4 "The message God wanted told is true." Four premises and one near-tautology conclusion dealing with only one of the premises. Anyone could draw the following alternate conclusions from P2, which I submit has the same weight as Ironhorse's C1: C1 (alternative #1): [P2] being true does not mean they were correct about what they wrote…" (from P2), or C1 (alternative #2: [P2] being true does has nothing to do with whether the authors of the Bible were wrong or correct in what they wrote..." (from P2), Put another was C1 is basically a meaningless conclusion, a-non-sequitur. So, we have four unsupported mere assertions and one meaningless and irrelevant conclusion. At least Ironhorse is writing his own words and making his own argument. That's a good thing and I'm glad to see it. Everything about you smacks a reality freak. Reality is a good place to be. Works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 The truth is the truth. Facts can point towards or away from the truth. So are you saying the truth may be different for two people? Take for example the statement in the Declaration, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." So if the truths they held are said to be self-evident regarding 'all men being created equal' then what was that truth? As you noted in your comment regarding falsely comparing and bending of words to 'allow' something that has little or no evidence seem to be true, yet none the less what a person holds as the truth will be reflected by what they think "all men being created equal" means. So to answer you question, yes, the truth can be different for two people that lack principles. I'd have to say the writers of the Declaration used a lot of metaphor. All men are created equal means all men should be able to enjoy life, liberty and pursue happiness. The writers felt they were being oppressed by the English government and thus not able to fully enjoy life. Is this a 'truth' ? I don't know. It sounds more like someone's opinion on how people should be free and not subject to government oppression. Just like 'truth' in a courtroom is incorrectly used to mean 'whatever the jury decides'. Do you worship and revere the Declaration of Independence? Is it above all criticism? Or is it an imperfectly written document just like the bible and all other documents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 It's easy to accept God once you accept theres life. It's easy to accept bicycle once you accept cookies. I'm not sure that truer words have ever been spoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Truth is not a belief system,, it's how you change a positive and negative to a zero. ...or something to that effect. You seem to not understand what English words actually mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I'd have to say the writers of the Declaration used a lot of metaphor. All men are created equal means all men should be able to enjoy life, liberty and pursue happiness. As it says, they held that those truths are self-evident so who am I to argue with that principle. However, it is interesting to note a quote by Jefferson in a letter to John Adams in 1823 which is said to have been: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." The writers felt they were being oppressed by the English government and thus not able to fully enjoy life. Is this a 'truth' ? I don't know. It sounds more like someone's opinion on how people should be free and not subject to government oppression. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..." "All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest immoralchristian Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 God is perfect in good and evil and when he acts in human affairs we suffer from a lack of understanding of what goodness and evil really is. Perfectly evil. Is this a valuable quality? Where is this god and when has he acted in human affairs? Do you even know what good or evil really is? Does one fucking person on this fucking planet know what good and evil really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest immoralchristian Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Truth is not a belief system,, it's how you change a positive and negative to a zero. ...or something to that effect. You seem to not understand what English words actually mean. English, don't get me started on that guy. All he does is steal my shit and use it for his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I've told you this before IC, but if you want to have meaningful conversations you should try to be coherent. This often includes using words to mean what they actually mean, and not just spewing nonsense. Of course if you don't care about meaningful conversation, then feel free to spew. But don't be surprised when people move away from you on the bus. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I'd have to say the writers of the Declaration used a lot of metaphor. All men are created equal means all men should be able to enjoy life, liberty and pursue happiness. As it says, they held that those truths are self-evident so who am I to argue with that principle. However, it is interesting to note a quote by Jefferson in a letter to John Adams in 1823 which is said to have been: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." The writers felt they were being oppressed by the English government and thus not able to fully enjoy life. Is this a 'truth' ? I don't know. It sounds more like someone's opinion on how people should be free and not subject to government oppression. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..." "All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." Thomas Jefferson Murica! Thank you for your snippets of our government documents. Whatever was said by an important sounding person a long time ago cannot ever be questioned or criticized, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 God is perfect in good and evil and when he acts in human affairs we suffer from a lack of understanding of what goodness and evil really is. Perfectly evil. Is this a valuable quality? Where is this god and when has he acted in human affairs? Do you even know what good or evil really is? Does one fucking person on this fucking planet know what good and evil really is. Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 God is perfect in good and evil and when he acts in human affairs we suffer from a lack of understanding of what goodness and evil really is. Perfectly evil. Is this a valuable quality? Where is this god and when has he acted in human affairs? Do you even know what good or evil really is? Does one fucking person on this fucking planet know what good and evil really is. Please let us know what you mean by "know", from a human perspective of course, and after that, please define "good" and "evil" (that's right, just two more words). After that, perhaps we can discuss your questions. The reason I ask for definitions prior to discourse is my subjective perception (from reading your other posts) that you seem to have your own personal definitions for many words...definitions that are a bit off the beaten path, definitions that might change from one post to the next or definitions that are different than the definitions I am accustomed at using. Thus, in order to improve the likelihood of meaningful communication, I must ask you to define some of the words you are using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Truth is not a belief system,, it's how you change a positive and negative to a zero. ...or something to that effect. You seem to not understand what English words actually mean. English, don't get me started on that guy. All he does is steal my shit and use it for his own. "English" is not a "guy", at least as was meant in disillusioned's post. He was describing a language used by many humans, and specifically referring to certain words contained in the English language. This is an example of what I addressed in my post immediately above. You seem to have different definitions for words than the rest of us use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts