yunea Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 Maybe I'm just a simple country doctor, but it seems to me this recurring argument is nothing more than the "god of the gaps" position. Did I miss anything? Yeah, acknowledging that science has one big huge gap... Science is very aware of its gaps, actually. Even a half a year of physics (or other science studies) in university will make that very clear. The thing is that science doesn't say "someone said it, i believe it, that settles it". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I'm sorry but I can't help but call you an idiot. I tried, Lord knows I tried. But you are an idiot. We call it the mind because we have defined it as "the mind" but that doesn't mean we know the mind "exactly". I'm sorry MM, I tried. I could not overcome. Because accepting the reality that you are wrong is a truth you cannot bear to face. You would rather wallow in delusion than consider that you have deluded yourself. @Anybody else who was trying to follow the conversation: The two constructs I was talking about were "good" and "evil". End3 changed it to "mind" in a desperate attempt to get out of the trap he created for himself. I never claimed to know the mind. End3 made up that part just now. You just called God an evil monster. How can you do that. You can't define evil in any scientific terms, yet you are willing to call it a human construct to win an argument. And then you call a human construct an exact definition. You're assigning a general unknown and giving it a name and saying that your knowledge about it is exact. It's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Maybe I'm just a simple country doctor, but it seems to me this recurring argument is nothing more than the "god of the gaps" position. Did I miss anything? Seems quite a bit like that to me too. Both sides acknowledge there are gaps, but only one side feels the need to fill them with a god. Not understanding something doesn't mean there's magic involved. It only means we're not understanding it - and in many cases one can also add a "just yet", as well. It's a curious thing how never once yet has the scientific answer to a mystery turned out to be "it's god's work". Perhaps you haven't looked deep enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Maybe I'm just a simple country doctor, but it seems to me this recurring argument is nothing more than the "god of the gaps" position. Did I miss anything? Yeah, acknowledging that science has one big huge gap... Science is very aware of its gaps, actually. Even a half a year of physics (or other science studies) in university will make that very clear. The thing is that science doesn't say "someone said it, i believe it, that settles it". Yes it does....it happens all the time....ALL the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 You just called God an evil monster. How can you do that. Because I can read. The Bible is filled with stories of God murdering people for petty reasons . . . God allowing rape, slavery, God torturing people for petty reasons. I could produce hundreds of examples. You can't define evil in any scientific terms, yet you are willing to call it a human construct to win an argument. Not to win an argument. I call evil a construct if, and only if, evil fits the definition of construct. You're assigning a general unknown and giving it a name and saying that your knowledge about it is exact. I have done nothing of the kind. I have assigned no unknown. You made that part up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Maybe I'm just a simple country doctor, but it seems to me this recurring argument is nothing more than the "god of the gaps" position. Did I miss anything? Yeah, acknowledging that science has one big huge gap... Science is very aware of its gaps, actually. Even a half a year of physics (or other science studies) in university will make that very clear. The thing is that science doesn't say "someone said it, i believe it, that settles it". Yes it does....it happens all the time....ALL the time. Well in that case, let's see you produce several examples of this happening. Since it happens all the time this should be easy for you to cite. Should I start the crickets chirping now or do you need a head start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Maybe I'm just a simple country doctor, but it seems to me this recurring argument is nothing more than the "god of the gaps" position. Did I miss anything? Yeah, acknowledging that science has one big huge gap... Science is very aware of its gaps, actually. Even a half a year of physics (or other science studies) in university will make that very clear. The thing is that science doesn't say "someone said it, i believe it, that settles it". Yes it does....it happens all the time....ALL the time. Well in that case, let's see you produce several examples of this happening. Since it happens all the time this should be easy for you to cite. Should I start the crickets chirping now or do you need a head start? MM, how many examples must I cite where one day science says X and people move their behavior in one direction only to find out later that a new study finds a contrary stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 You just called God an evil monster. How can you do that. Because I can read. The Bible is filled with stories of God murdering people for petty reasons . . . God allowing rape, slavery, God torturing people for petty reasons. I could produce hundreds of examples. You can't define evil in any scientific terms, yet you are willing to call it a human construct to win an argument. Not to win an argument. I call evil a construct if, and only if, evil fits the definition of construct. You're assigning a general unknown and giving it a name and saying that your knowledge about it is exact. I have done nothing of the kind. I have assigned no unknown. You made that part up. Not going to explain it to you again MM. sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 MM, how many examples must I cite where one day science says X and people move their behavior in one direction only to find out later that a new study finds a contrary stance. None of those examples support your claim that "all the time" science says "some guy said it, I believe it, that settles it". Rather they would disprove your claim because science never says "that settles it". Science is always looking for a better answer. Not going to explain it to you again MM. sorry. There can be no "again" when you didn't explain it the first time. The Monster kills all of Job's children to settle a bet. The Monster kills all the first born of Egypt because the Monster hardened Pharoh's heart. The Monster nearly exterminates the tribe of Benjamin and then repopulates them through rape. The Monster gets Joseph's betrothed pregnant. The Monster is going to torture most of humanity forever because the Monster fooled them into not believing the Monster is real. The Bible describes a God who is a monster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I'm sorry but I can't help but call you an idiot. I tried, Lord knows I tried. But you are an idiot. We call it the mind because we have defined it as "the mind" but that doesn't mean we know the mind "exactly". I'm sorry MM, I tried. I could not overcome. Because accepting the reality that you are wrong is a truth you cannot bear to face. You would rather wallow in delusion than consider that you have deluded yourself. @Anybody else who was trying to follow the conversation: The two constructs I was talking about were "good" and "evil". End3 changed it to "mind" in a desperate attempt to get out of the trap he created for himself. I never claimed to know the mind. End3 made up that part just now. You just called God an evil monster. How can you do that. You can't define evil in any scientific terms, yet you are willing to call it a human construct to win an argument. And then you call a human construct an exact definition. You're assigning a general unknown and giving it a name and saying that your knowledge about it is exact. It's not. Hold on big fella. Why try to define evil in scientific terms? We were at one time here allowing for the sake of argument that the Bible is true. In that case, God himself defines evil...no science needed. Further, the Bible tells us what evil and sin is. It tells us that our eyes have been opened to the knowledge of good and evil in the fall. So we take this knowledge of good and evil, and clear examples of what God considers to be evil, and when we look at God we see that in his book, he does evil things. That's what you running away from instead of discussing. Biblegod is not all good, or perfect. and righteous. He is evil because he does evil things. No need to know a bigger picture. If Biblegod is evil, which the Bible plainly shows he is, then pre-ambles and back stories and maybe's don't matter. Biblegod can't claim that the end justifies the means. If he's done evil, he is not holy. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 13, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted September 13, 2015 There ARE gaps in our knowledge, no doubt. But using what we DO know, we can infer certain things that suggest likely answers and test them to see if we're on the right track or if we just need to discard that particular idea. We work our way ever closer to a successful and testable conclusion. This process has cured diseases, put us on the moon and placed the Internet at your fingertips. It has shown us that there are, after all, no gods hiding in volcanoes, under the sea or above the clouds on a mountain top. Or we can simply assert that since we don't know everything we therefore know nothing, throw up our hands and claim that the answer must be some sort of magic. Sorry, but religious/magical/spiritual feelings and guesses have provided ZERO answers and such thinking predates the scientific method by millienna so they've had all the time in the world to come up with at least one concrete answer. Cue the crickets again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Biblegod can't claim that the end justifies the means. If he's done evil, he is not holy. Period. I don't believe that simply because we can't define holy. We can't define good. We can't define evil.......in infinite or exact terms. God can. This in my mind is why God says do X and adhere to X by faith. Edit.....define holy, good and evil in absolutes, or complete knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 So when God rapes you can't know if that is holy or not holy. So when God murders you can't be sure if this is good or evil. When God tortures people for eternity that might be holy or it might not be holy . . . you can't know. And when God lies maybe it's a good thing. When God allows a million children to die of cancer it could be holy. When God sends an earthquake to kill thousands that might be holy. God inventing disease might have been wonderful. You must live in a world that has no meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 There ARE gaps in our knowledge, no doubt. But using what we DO know, we can infer certain things that suggest likely answers and test them to see if we're on the right track or if we just need to discard that particular idea. We work our way ever closer to a successful and testable conclusion. This process has cured diseases, put us on the moon and placed the Internet at your fingertips. It has shown us that there are, after all, no gods hiding in volcanoes, under the sea or above the clouds on a mountain top. Or we can simply assert that since we don't know everything we therefore know nothing, throw up our hands and claim that the answer must be some sort of magic. Sorry, but religious/magical/spiritual feelings and guesses have provided ZERO answers and such thinking predates the scientific method by millienna so they've had all the time in the world to come up with at least one concrete answer. Cue the crickets again. The problem with your statement is you are satisfied via the places you have ruled out. What needs to be allowed for is respect for where we haven't nor have the capability to test. Thinking our knowledge base makes this clear as well as a reasonable truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Biblegod can't claim that the end justifies the means. If he's done evil, he is not holy. Period. I don't believe that simply because we can't define holy. We can't define good. We can't define evil.......in infinite or exact terms. God can. This in my mind is why God says do X and adhere to X by faith. "We" can't define holy. But doesn't your God define holy in his book? Doesn't he tell people to be holy, because he is holy? "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15,16. It seems God commands you to do something you can't do! Or does he provide the knowledge to you of what 'holy' is? Which is it, End? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Biblegod can't claim that the end justifies the means. If he's done evil, he is not holy. Period. I don't believe that simply because we can't define holy. We can't define good. We can't define evil.......in infinite or exact terms. God can. This in my mind is why God says do X and adhere to X by faith. And there we have the root cause of the problem, End. Your mind doesn't play according to the rules, doesn't accept that they apply to you and and doesn't even accept that they should exist at all. Even when these rules produce results, you deny that they do. Or rather, you say that because everything is subjective these results are actually non-results. Ditto evidence. Because everything is subjective, all evidence is actually non-evidence. So why you go with faith (which, according to you, is just as subjective as everything else) is beyond me! . . . Oh and btw, please answer my question. Are you saying that all human constructs are invalid? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 So when God rapes you can't know if that is holy or not holy. So when God murders you can't be sure if this is good or evil. When God tortures people for eternity that might be holy or it might not be holy . . . you can't know. And when God lies maybe it's a good thing. When God allows a million children to die of cancer it could be holy. When God sends an earthquake to kill thousands that might be holy. God inventing disease might have been wonderful. You must live in a world that has no meaning. See, again, this is why you are slow. Reasonably certain there are strategies in medicine to use what we have defined as disease as part of a mechanism to heal. One perspective is "No, that's an evil disease" vs. using it now as a mechanism to come to a healing end.....i.e., allowing "evil" for the ultimate good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Biblegod can't claim that the end justifies the means. If he's done evil, he is not holy. Period. I don't believe that simply because we can't define holy. We can't define good. We can't define evil.......in infinite or exact terms. God can. This in my mind is why God says do X and adhere to X by faith. "We" can't define holy. But doesn't your God define holy in his book? Doesn't he tell people to be holy, because he is holy? "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; [/size] Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15,16. [/size] It seems God commands you to do something you can't do! Or does he provide the knowledge to you of what 'holy' is? Which is it, End?[/size] I can move towards, but the only way I could accomplish holy is through grace. Nothing I can do can make me holy short of the agreement, faith, in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 The reason it's called a "human construct" is simply because we don't know the mechanisms to call it any other thing. Wrong! The reason we call them constructs is because we know exactly what a construct is and these two concepts fit that definition exactly. We call them constructs because they fit the definition, in other words because they are constructs. I'm sorry but I can't help but call you an idiot. I tried, Lord knows I tried. But you are an idiot. We call it the mind because we have defined it as "the mind" but that doesn't mean we know the mind "exactly". I'm sorry MM, I tried. I could not overcome. Exact knowledge isn't necessary to acquire a good, working knowledge of the mind. For example, I've never personally met anyone on this forum, but I've acquired a good, working knowledge of how certain people think by carefully reading what they post. Quite why knowledge becomes invalid to you because it's inexact/imperfect/incomplete is a mystery to me. By definition, imperfect and incomplete knowledge is all humans will ever have of anything - yet it's a historically undeniable fact that we now know more about the way reality works today, than we did a century ago. Unless, of course, you want to deny the historical record of science's advances too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Do you know these chemical reactions, the mechanism for development, etc??? I'm not a neurologist and this is way off topic. If you want to talk about God's ways are not our ways then you know where to find me. The God of the Old Testament is an evil monster. The God of the New Testament is a "sinner" and as sadistic monster. Believing in either one is making a prediction about the infinite. Oh good god. It's not off topic, it's where the topic has evolved. Get back to me when science can make a prediction about the infinite. So science can make confirmed predictions about everything else but the infinite and you're ready to disregard and deny it all? That impossible condition is the only thing you'll accept before you acknowledge science's validity? It's perfection or nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Biblegod can't claim that the end justifies the means. If he's done evil, he is not holy. Period.I don't believe that simply because we can't define holy. We can't define good. We can't define evil.......in infinite or exact terms. God can. This in my mind is why God says do X and adhere to X by faith. "We" can't define holy. But doesn't your God define holy in his book? Doesn't he tell people to be holy, because he is holy? "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; [/size] Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15,16. [/size] It seems God commands you to do something you can't do! Or does he provide the knowledge to you of what 'holy' is? Which is it, End?[/size] I can move towards, but the only way I could accomplish holy is through grace. Nothing I can do can make me holy short of the agreement, faith, in Christ. So then, you do know what 'holy' is. You can read in your Bible that God has done things that are sinful, and not holy. You have a contradiction in yourself because you have a contradiction in your Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 So when God rapes you can't know if that is holy or not holy. So when God murders you can't be sure if this is good or evil. When God tortures people for eternity that might be holy or it might not be holy . . . you can't know. And when God lies maybe it's a good thing. When God allows a million children to die of cancer it could be holy. When God sends an earthquake to kill thousands that might be holy. God inventing disease might have been wonderful. You must live in a world that has no meaning. See, again, this is why you are slow. Reasonably certain there are strategies in medicine to use what we have defined as disease as part of a mechanism to heal. One perspective is "No, that's an evil disease" vs. using it now as a mechanism to come to a healing end.....i.e., allowing "evil" for the ultimate good. If your God exists and your God created disease then your God allowed billions of innocent people to die needlessly yet allowed science to save a few. The net effect is much more harm was done then was prevented. That makes your God evil. If God simply decided to not create disease in the first place then there would be no need for some disease to fight other disease. I'm not the one who is slow. What needs to be allowed for is respect for where we haven't nor have the capability to test. Thinking our knowledge base makes this clear as well as a reasonable truth. You cannot test or rule out that I am the all powerful creator of the universe. So you are going to keep an open mind that I might be God, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Maybe I'm just a simple country doctor, but it seems to me this recurring argument is nothing more than the "god of the gaps" position. Did I miss anything? Yeah, acknowledging that science has one big huge gap... That's right, Florduh. End can't accept that any science is valid unless it can perfectly predict the infinite. Which he knows it can't. But setting the bar infinitely high is how he rules out everything and anything he wants to deny. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Biblegod can't claim that the end justifies the means. If he's done evil, he is not holy. Period.I don't believe that simply because we can't define holy. We can't define good. We can't define evil.......in infinite or exact terms. God can. This in my mind is why God says do X and adhere to X by faith. "We" can't define holy. But doesn't your God define holy in his book? Doesn't he tell people to be holy, because he is holy? "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; [/size] Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15,16. [/size] It seems God commands you to do something you can't do! Or does he provide the knowledge to you of what 'holy' is? Which is it, End?[/size] I can move towards, but the only way I could accomplish holy is through grace. Nothing I can do can make me holy short of the agreement, faith, in Christ. So then, you do know what 'holy' is. You can read in your Bible that God has done things that are sinful, and not holy. You have a contradiction in yourself because you have a contradiction in your Bible. There's no contradiction. it's relative holiness vs. absolute..... We may claim holiness "in Christ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Yes it does....it happens all the time....ALL the time. Justify the claim with evidence or it didn't happen! Play by the rules, End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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