Putting An End3 To The War Between Good And Evil

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us?

 

Y'all wish to ultimately blame God.

 

Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to?

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."  Genesis 3:5

 

What Eve was able to experience was pride: the desire to rise above her station, the need to become greater than she was.  Being like god was an idea that appealed to her at a very deep level.

 

She was motivated by pride.

 

But, isn't pride a sin?  Isn't it, in fact, one of the seven deadly sins?

 

How could she be motivated by sin before eating the fruit?  How could she experience sin when she was still in her "perfect" state?  How could such a motivation even be a part of her nature, if she were created in the "image of god"?

 

Unless sin is also a part of god's nature, in which Eve was created?  Which brings us back to Isaiah 45:7.

 

("I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.")

 

Which was my point if I am not mistaken....

 

Goes back to my other point that if they were capable of experiencing for lack of a better word, or being influenced by sin, then it seems to me that God was only presenting good.

 

Really have no idea why the need to put the temptation in the garden....to play out the Jesus plan?

 

 

But by your own words End, you've agreed that God could not be presenting only good to Adam and Eve.

 

By making them unable to weigh the consequences of their actions (your words) and then setting them a test that required them to do just that, God was doing evil to them.

 

Unless you're saying that by setting up His test for them in this way, God was doing good to them?

 

We're not omniscient BAA. We may only make a limited judgment.

[Guest end3]

Are you agreeing with the suggestion that the capacity to experience sin was already a part of Adam and Eve's nature, before eating the fruit?  Keep in mind that they were supposedly created in the image of god.

Yeah, that's what it looks like.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Are you agreeing with the suggestion that the capacity to experience sin was already a part of Adam and Eve's nature, before eating the fruit?  Keep in mind that they were supposedly created in the image of god.

Yeah, that's what it looks like.

 

Then sin did NOT enter the world through Adam and Eve as the bible states.  It entered into the world because god PUT IT THERE when he created Adam and Eve with a nature of sin.  

 

The cross is entirely meaningless because jesus did not die to save us from OUR sins.  

 

They are not OUR sins to begin with; they are god's.

 

You claim that we just want to blame god; but your own words demonstrate that it IS his fault.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Are you agreeing with the suggestion that the capacity to experience sin was already a part of Adam and Eve's nature, before eating the fruit?  Keep in mind that they were supposedly created in the image of god.

Yeah, that's what it looks like.

 

Then sin did NOT enter the world through Adam and Eve as the bible states.  It entered into the world because god PUT IT THERE when he created Adam and Eve with a nature of sin.  

 

The cross is entirely meaningless because jesus did not die to save us from OUR sins.  

 

They are not OUR sins to begin with; they are god's.

 

You claim that we just want to blame god; but your own words demonstrate that it IS his fault.

 

I don't see it like that Prof. If God didn't sin, then sin didn't enter through Him regardless of whether he knew sin.

[qadeshet]

 

 

 

Are you agreeing with the suggestion that the capacity to experience sin was already a part of Adam and Eve's nature, before eating the fruit?  Keep in mind that they were supposedly created in the image of god.

Yeah, that's what it looks like.

 

Then sin did NOT enter the world through Adam and Eve as the bible states.  It entered into the world because god PUT IT THERE when he created Adam and Eve with a nature of sin.  

 

The cross is entirely meaningless because jesus did not die to save us from OUR sins.  

 

They are not OUR sins to begin with; they are god's.

 

You claim that we just want to blame god; but your own words demonstrate that it IS his fault.

 

I don't see it like that Prof. If God didn't sin, then sin didn't enter through Him regardless of whether he knew sin.

 

Why bother to make excuses for a supposedly All Knowing "god"? He had to know that Adam and Eve were going to eat the Fruit when he planted the Tree in the Garden, making him responsible. Remember Job's lesson; god is god and can do whatever he wants.

 

Job 42:

 

42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, (42:2) "I know that thou canst do every thing and that no thought can be withholden from thee."

Can God do anything?

Does God know everything? 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.   42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.   42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. (42:5) "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

Can God be seen? 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Skeptics Annotated Bible

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us?

 

Y'all wish to ultimately blame God.

 

Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to?

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."  Genesis 3:5

 

What Eve was able to experience was pride: the desire to rise above her station, the need to become greater than she was.  Being like god was an idea that appealed to her at a very deep level.

 

She was motivated by pride.

 

But, isn't pride a sin?  Isn't it, in fact, one of the seven deadly sins?

 

How could she be motivated by sin before eating the fruit?  How could she experience sin when she was still in her "perfect" state?  How could such a motivation even be a part of her nature, if she were created in the "image of god"?

 

Unless sin is also a part of god's nature, in which Eve was created?  Which brings us back to Isaiah 45:7.

 

("I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.")

 

Which was my point if I am not mistaken....

 

Goes back to my other point that if they were capable of experiencing for lack of a better word, or being influenced by sin, then it seems to me that God was only presenting good.

 

Really have no idea why the need to put the temptation in the garden....to play out the Jesus plan?

 

 

But by your own words End, you've agreed that God could not be presenting only good to Adam and Eve.

 

By making them unable to weigh the consequences of their actions (your words) and then setting them a test that required them to do just that, God was doing evil to them.

 

Unless you're saying that by setting up His test for them in this way, God was doing good to them?

 

We're not omniscient BAA. We may only make a limited judgment.

 

 

No need for omniscience, End.

 

Just look to what the text says.

 

Did God withhold the ability the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

 

And did He then set them a test that required what He withheld?

 

And were their eyes opened to the consequences after they ate?

 

These aren't difficult questions and omniscience isn't required to answer them, End.

 

Just read the text and answer them.

 

Please.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

Are you agreeing with the suggestion that the capacity to experience sin was already a part of Adam and Eve's nature, before eating the fruit?  Keep in mind that they were supposedly created in the image of god.

Yeah, that's what it looks like.

 

Then sin did NOT enter the world through Adam and Eve as the bible states.  It entered into the world because god PUT IT THERE when he created Adam and Eve with a nature of sin.  

 

The cross is entirely meaningless because jesus did not die to save us from OUR sins.  

 

They are not OUR sins to begin with; they are god's.

 

You claim that we just want to blame god; but your own words demonstrate that it IS his fault.

 

I don't see it like that Prof. If God didn't sin, then sin didn't enter through Him regardless of whether he knew sin.

 

Yes, but god did sin, didn't he?  We know that god sinned because we know that god lied.  He told Adam that he would die in the day he ate of the fruit, but genesis 5:5 states that Adam lived for 930 years.  He didn't die the day he ate the fruit; therefore what god said was a lie.

 

This further demonstrates that sin was also a part of the nature of god, in which he created Adam and Eve.  Yet, for acting upon that nature, god condemns Adam and Eve while still holding himself blameless and holy.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

It's a classic case of "do as I say, but not as I do."  Who would defend such hypocrisy... let alone worship it?

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

 

Are you agreeing with the suggestion that the capacity to experience sin was already a part of Adam and Eve's nature, before eating the fruit?  Keep in mind that they were supposedly created in the image of god.

Yeah, that's what it looks like.

 

Then sin did NOT enter the world through Adam and Eve as the bible states.  It entered into the world because god PUT IT THERE when he created Adam and Eve with a nature of sin.  

 

The cross is entirely meaningless because jesus did not die to save us from OUR sins.  

 

They are not OUR sins to begin with; they are god's.

 

You claim that we just want to blame god; but your own words demonstrate that it IS his fault.

 

I don't see it like that Prof. If God didn't sin, then sin didn't enter through Him regardless of whether he knew sin.

 

Yes, but god did sin, didn't he?  We know that god sinned because we know that god lied.  He told Adam that he would die in the day he ate of the fruit, but genesis 5:5 states that Adam lived for 930 years.  He didn't die the day he ate the fruit; therefore what god said was a lie.

 

This further demonstrates that sin was also a part of the nature of god, in which he created Adam and Eve.  Yet, for acting upon that nature, god condemns Adam and Eve while still holding himself blameless and holy.

 

No, we still have no way of knowing whether this exercise leads to good or evil....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You don't see how god's lying nature led to evil? Withholding vital information doesn't strike you as dishonest, especially in this instance with so much at stake?

 

Really?

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us?

 

Y'all wish to ultimately blame God.

 

Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to?

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."  Genesis 3:5

 

What Eve was able to experience was pride: the desire to rise above her station, the need to become greater than she was.  Being like god was an idea that appealed to her at a very deep level.

 

She was motivated by pride.

 

But, isn't pride a sin?  Isn't it, in fact, one of the seven deadly sins?

 

How could she be motivated by sin before eating the fruit?  How could she experience sin when she was still in her "perfect" state?  How could such a motivation even be a part of her nature, if she were created in the "image of god"?

 

Unless sin is also a part of god's nature, in which Eve was created?  Which brings us back to Isaiah 45:7.

 

("I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.")

 

Which was my point if I am not mistaken....

 

Goes back to my other point that if they were capable of experiencing for lack of a better word, or being influenced by sin, then it seems to me that God was only presenting good.

 

Really have no idea why the need to put the temptation in the garden....to play out the Jesus plan?

 

 

But by your own words End, you've agreed that God could not be presenting only good to Adam and Eve.

 

By making them unable to weigh the consequences of their actions (your words) and then setting them a test that required them to do just that, God was doing evil to them.

 

Unless you're saying that by setting up His test for them in this way, God was doing good to them?

 

We're not omniscient BAA. We may only make a limited judgment.

 

 

No need for omniscience, End.

 

Just look to what the text says.

 

Did God withhold the ability the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

 

And did He then set them a test that required what He withheld?

 

And were their eyes opened to the consequences after they ate?

 

These aren't difficult questions and omniscience isn't required to answer them, End.

 

Just read the text and answer them.

 

Please.

 

 

Please, End.

[bornagainathiest]

You don't see how god's lying nature led to evil? Withholding vital information doesn't strike you as dishonest, especially in this instance with so much at stake?

 

Really?

 

What about God withholding of the following information from Adam and Eve?

 

*  That God would curse them

 

*  That God would curse every one of their descendants

 

*  That God would inflict corruption, disease, pain and death on the whole universe 

 

Transparent, much?

[midniterider]

 

No, we still have no way of knowing whether this exercise leads to good or evil....

 

 

So you're not sure if God' exercise leads to good. Ok. 

[Guest end3]

Let me give you an example....I have two bugs in a jar, one good, one evil. I am holding the jar in my hand. I profess that I am a man that leads to good. I smush the evil bug and release the good bug that leads to good bugs from now on.

 

Have I done evil by smushing the evil bug?

 

Edit: seems very plain that most here are predestination people....that God controls.

 

I would ask so I am clear.....do you believe that God ultimately controls his creation?

[Guest end3]

You don't see how god's lying nature led to evil? Withholding vital information doesn't strike you as dishonest, especially in this instance with so much at stake?

 

Really?

I get your point already. Let me ask you this....do you "lie" to RN Jr. when you withhold information he doesn't need to know about at his age? Or do you consider it wise.

[TheOutsider]

Let me give you an example....I have two bugs in a jar, one good, one evil. I am holding the jar in my hand. I profess that I am a man that leads to good. I smush the evil bug and release the good bug that leads to good bugs from now on.

 

Have I done evil by smushing the evil bug?

 

If you created both of the bugs, knowing how each of their bloodlines would unfold, then yes. You have created an evil thing. You made it suffer for being exactly what you wanted it to be. And if you're trying to mirror Yahweh, you will continue to make it suffer, endlessly, after you killed it. You are a monster, just like your god.

 

Edit: seems very plain that most here are predestination people....that God controls.

 

I would ask so I am clear.....do you believe that God ultimately controls his creation?

I think that if your mythology is true, and to be clear I don't believe it is, then yes. He knew everything that would happen the moment he made any action. He knew exactly how everything would unfold before he did anything. And he went through with it anyway.

 

He is responsible for everything anyone and anything does. Because he knew, before he did anything, exactly how any action he took would unfold. There is no room for uncertainty, or deviation. God is omniscient. He knew the end before anything even began. He knew every detail in between. He. Is. Omniscient.

 

According to your mythology, he punishes us for doing exactly what he knew we would do. We have no say. We have no autonomy. We are following a script. And we are made to suffer endlessly for it in hell. What a truly just and holy being your god is.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

You don't see how god's lying nature led to evil? Withholding vital information doesn't strike you as dishonest, especially in this instance with so much at stake?

 

Really?

I get your point already. Let me ask you this....do you "lie" to RN Jr. when you withhold information he doesn't need to know about at his age? Or do you consider it wise.

 

I don't affix eternal hellfire and damnation to him making a bad decision based on information that I have witheld.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

And, in truth, Redneck Jr. and I have a surprisingly open and honest relationship.  I don't really withold much of anything from him, especially if he asks me a straightforward question.

 

I might not be the best analog to the point you're trying to make; but I think I've made mine.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

 

Let me give you an example....I have two bugs in a jar, one good, one evil. I am holding the jar in my hand. I profess that I am a man that leads to good. I smush the evil bug and release the good bug that leads to good bugs from now on.

 

Have I done evil by smushing the evil bug?

 

If you created both of the bugs, knowing how each of their bloodlines would unfold, then yes. You have created an evil thing. You made it suffer for being exactly what you wanted it to be. And if you're trying to mirror Yahweh, you will continue to make it suffer, endlessly, after you killed it. You are a monster, just like your god.

 

Edit: seems very plain that most here are predestination people....that God controls.

 

I would ask so I am clear.....do you believe that God ultimately controls his creation?

I think that if your mythology is true, and to be clear I don't believe it is, then yes. He knew everything that would happen the moment he made any action. He knew exactly how everything would unfold before he did anything. And he went through with it anyway.

 

He is responsible for everything anyone and anything does. Because he knew, before he did anything, exactly how any action he took would unfold. There is no room for uncertainty, or deviation. God is omniscient. He knew the end before anything even began. He knew every detail in between. He. Is. Omniscient.

 

According to your mythology, he punishes us for doing exactly what he knew we would do. We have no say. We have no autonomy. We are following a script. And we are made to suffer endlessly for it in hell. What a truly just and holy being your god is.

 

 

^^Seems like something is internal flawed in that mythology.  That makes it a poor and empty mythology.

[Guest end3]

 

Let me give you an example....I have two bugs in a jar, one good, one evil. I am holding the jar in my hand. I profess that I am a man that leads to good. I smush the evil bug and release the good bug that leads to good bugs from now on.

 

Have I done evil by smushing the evil bug?

 

If you created both of the bugs, knowing how each of their bloodlines would unfold, then yes. You have created an evil thing. You made it suffer for being exactly what you wanted it to be. And if you're trying to mirror Yahweh, you will continue to make it suffer, endlessly, after you killed it. You are a monster, just like your god.

 

Edit: seems very plain that most here are predestination people....that God controls.

 

I would ask so I am clear.....do you believe that God ultimately controls his creation?

I think that if your mythology is true, and to be clear I don't believe it is, then yes. He knew everything that would happen the moment he made any action. He knew exactly how everything would unfold before he did anything. And he went through with it anyway.

 

He is responsible for everything anyone and anything does. Because he knew, before he did anything, exactly how any action he took would unfold. There is no room for uncertainty, or deviation. God is omniscient. He knew the end before anything even began. He knew every detail in between. He. Is. Omniscient.

 

According to your mythology, he punishes us for doing exactly what he knew we would do. We have no say. We have no autonomy. We are following a script. And we are made to suffer endlessly for it in hell. What a truly just and holy being your god is.

 

Do you believe that humans are inherently evil when they are born, yes or no.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Let me give you an example....I have two bugs in a jar, one good, one evil. I am holding the jar in my hand. I profess that I am a man that leads to good. I smush the evil bug and release the good bug that leads to good bugs from now on.

 

Have I done evil by smushing the evil bug?

 

Edit: seems very plain that most here are predestination people....that God controls.

 

I would ask so I am clear.....do you believe that God ultimately controls his creation?

Did you create both bugs?  Is the evil bug evil because you created him with a nature of evil?  Are you smushing the evil bug because it is acting upon the nature of evil with which you created it?  Is it possible to mistake the "good" bug for the "evil" one... or are you also omniscient in this scenario?

[Guest end3]

 

 

You don't see how god's lying nature led to evil? Withholding vital information doesn't strike you as dishonest, especially in this instance with so much at stake?

 

Really?

I get your point already. Let me ask you this....do you "lie" to RN Jr. when you withhold information he doesn't need to know about at his age? Or do you consider it wise.

 

I don't affix eternal hellfire and damnation to him making a bad decision based on information that I have witheld.

 

Might as well...send him over so I can start him on meth.

[Guest end3]

 

Let me give you an example....I have two bugs in a jar, one good, one evil. I am holding the jar in my hand. I profess that I am a man that leads to good. I smush the evil bug and release the good bug that leads to good bugs from now on.

 

Have I done evil by smushing the evil bug?

 

Edit: seems very plain that most here are predestination people....that God controls.

 

I would ask so I am clear.....do you believe that God ultimately controls his creation?

Did you create both bugs?  Is the evil bug evil because you created him with a nature of evil?  Are you smushing the evil bug because it is acting upon the nature of evil with which you created it?  Is it possible to mistake the "good" bug for the "evil" one... or are you also omniscient in this scenario?

 

Y'all tell me....I just asked the Outsider if we think babies are born evil...you have an opinion?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Let me give you an example....I have two bugs in a jar, one good, one evil. I am holding the jar in my hand. I profess that I am a man that leads to good. I smush the evil bug and release the good bug that leads to good bugs from now on.

 

Have I done evil by smushing the evil bug?

 

If you created both of the bugs, knowing how each of their bloodlines would unfold, then yes. You have created an evil thing. You made it suffer for being exactly what you wanted it to be. And if you're trying to mirror Yahweh, you will continue to make it suffer, endlessly, after you killed it. You are a monster, just like your god.

 

Edit: seems very plain that most here are predestination people....that God controls.

 

I would ask so I am clear.....do you believe that God ultimately controls his creation?

I think that if your mythology is true, and to be clear I don't believe it is, then yes. He knew everything that would happen the moment he made any action. He knew exactly how everything would unfold before he did anything. And he went through with it anyway.

 

He is responsible for everything anyone and anything does. Because he knew, before he did anything, exactly how any action he took would unfold. There is no room for uncertainty, or deviation. God is omniscient. He knew the end before anything even began. He knew every detail in between. He. Is. Omniscient.

 

According to your mythology, he punishes us for doing exactly what he knew we would do. We have no say. We have no autonomy. We are following a script. And we are made to suffer endlessly for it in hell. What a truly just and holy being your god is.

 

Do you believe that humans are inherently evil when they are born, yes or no.

 

No.  Refer to the Original Post.  Nothing, which includes people, is inherently "good" or "evil".

 

(Yay.  Now we get to talk about Hitler and Pol Pot,)

[sdelsolray]

 

Let me give you an example....I have two bugs in a jar, one good, one evil. I am holding the jar in my hand. I profess that I am a man that leads to good. I smush the evil bug and release the good bug that leads to good bugs from now on.

 

Have I done evil by smushing the evil bug?

 

Edit: seems very plain that most here are predestination people....that God controls.

 

I would ask so I am clear.....do you believe that God ultimately controls his creation?

Did you create both bugs?  Is the evil bug evil because you created him with a nature of evil?  Are you smushing the evil bug because it is acting upon the nature of evil with which you created it?  Is it possible to mistake the "good" bug for the "evil" one... or are you also omniscient in this scenario?

 

 

 

How do the bugs know what is good or evil?