bornagainathiest Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 The discovery of Jesus' bones should cause you to leave your faith, OC. So, would you have the integrity to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 The discovery of Jesus' bones should cause you to leave your faith, OC. So, would you have the integrity to do so? You're engaging in gimmickry. I deal with reality. There is no possible way to conclude a set of bones were His. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Its all made up and what might be true is subjective to the author's point of view. Doe this mean I should not believe any of your posts? It means you should consider the truth in what it says. I have nothing to gain or lose by your belief or disbelief in what I wrote. I do so to try to help you join reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 5, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 OrdinaryClay, You are confusing evidence with proof. Have a nice day, TheRedneckProfessor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Its all made up and what might be true is subjective to the author's point of view. Doe this mean I should not believe any of your posts? It means you should consider the truth in what it says. I have nothing to gain or lose by your belief or disbelief in what I wrote. I do so to try to help you join reality. You missed the point. What makes you immune to subjective distortion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinEater Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68 If you are an "apostate", how does "nothing" even have the chance to make you "leave your Faith"? ...You have already left... lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 OrdinaryClay, You are confusing evidence with proof. Have a nice day, TheRedneckProfessor I'm certain that is not the case. History is not science. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_(law) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68 If you are an "apostate", how does "nothing" even have the chance to make you "leave your Faith"? ...You have already left... lol? I've edited the default now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Its all made up and what might be true is subjective to the author's point of view. Doe this mean I should not believe any of your posts? It means you should consider the truth in what it says. I have nothing to gain or lose by your belief or disbelief in what I wrote. I do so to try to help you join reality. You missed the point. What makes you immune to subjective distortion? I didn't miss your point. To answer your question, I am not immune to subjectivity. But, I stated some facts to answer your post. Those facts aren't anything but facts. Where is the subjectivity in my statements? Did I state anything that was untrue? You made a statement by quoting a verse and I challenged what significance that verse had in the whole of our lives. You quoted it because I suspect that you believe it is true. I questioned how it could be true and questioned how you could believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 5, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 OrdinaryClay, You are using a scripture verse, which is neither history nor science, to support the claim that "nothing" would make you leave your faith. In this context, the verse acts as "evidence" to support a claim. However, you also see the verse as "proof" of the validity and veracity of the Christian religion in general, and your specific version of it in particular. You, therefore, are most certainly confusing the terms in this instance, even by the standard put forth in your wiki-link. I should also point out that your attempt at muddying the waters with a wiki-link, which is nothing more than a prelude to derailment in the form of arguing semantics, has not gone unnoticed. It is, if memory serves, one of your more oft-used tactics, in addition to deflection, redirect, mis-direct, obfuscation, and playing on the fears of those lurkers and newbies who might still be on the fence. If you'd like your number back, I'm sure there are many of us here who have it. Yours ex-christ, TheRedneckProfessor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I didn't miss your point. To answer your question, I am not immune to subjectivity. But, I stated some facts to answer your post. Those facts aren't anything but facts. Where is the subjectivity in my statements? Did I state anything that was untrue? You made a statement by quoting a verse and I challenged what significance that verse had in the whole of our lives. You quoted it because I suspect that you believe it is true. I questioned how it could be true and questioned how you could believe it. You made no statements of fact. You made bald assertions along with some regurgitated opinion. You have a vested self interest in self deception, so your subjective distortion is relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 OrdinaryClay, You are using a scripture verse, which is neither history nor science, to support the claim that "nothing" would make you leave your faith. In this context, the verse acts as "evidence" to support a claim. However, you also see the verse as "proof" of the validity and veracity of the Christian religion in general, and your specific version of it in particular. You, therefore, are most certainly confusing the terms in this instance, even by the standard put forth in your wiki-link. I should also point out that your attempt at muddying the waters with a wiki-link, which is nothing more than a prelude to derailment in the form of arguing semantics, has not gone unnoticed. It is, if memory serves, one of your more oft-used tactics, in addition to deflection, redirect, mis-direct, obfuscation, and playing on the fears of those lurkers and newbies who might still be on the fence. If you'd like your number back, I'm sure there are many of us here who have it. Yours ex-christ, TheRedneckProfessor You are confused. John 6:68 is not evidence nor proof. It's simply a verse I value. It speaks to me on an emotional level. History is one of the cornerstones in any analytical approach to discovering the truth behind Christ and hence Christianity. I assumed those who claim to be knowlegable in religion knew this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 The discovery of Jesus' bones should cause you to leave your faith, OC. So, would you have the integrity to do so? You're engaging in gimmickry. I deal with reality. There is no possible way to conclude a set of bones were His. No. You make the bald assertion that you deal with reality. However, the discovery that we inhabit an eternal reality would falsify Christianity very nicely. Oh and before you launch into a response to that, please put your understanding of cosmology in order first. The last time I checked, your stated 'understanding' violated the Copernican principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 5, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 Do not attempt to lie your way out, OrdinaryClay. You DID use this verse to support your claim that "nothing" would make you leave your faith; because the verse itself supports the claim that in jesus alone is eternal life. This is, therefore, the proof you need to justify your belief in jesus; leading you to posit the claim that "nothing" would make you leave your faith. Attempting, then, to redirect with a claim that the verse merely "speaks to you on an emotional level" is nothing more than a lie to hide the real reason you put the verse where you did. god hates liars. That is ONE of the cornerstones of the bible, and hence christianity. I assumed those who claimed to be knowlegable in religion knew this. You speak of discovering truth but aren't even aware of your own lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Do not attempt to lie your way out, OrdinaryClay. You DID use this verse to support your claim that "nothing" would make you leave your faith; because the verse itself supports the claim that in jesus alone is eternal life. This is, therefore, the proof you need to justify your belief in jesus; leading you to posit the claim that "nothing" would make you leave your faith. Attempting, then, to redirect with a claim that the verse merely "speaks to you on an emotional level" is nothing more than a lie to hide the real reason you put the verse where you did. god hates liars. That is ONE of the cornerstones of the bible, and hence christianity. I assumed those who claimed to be knowlegable in religion knew this. You speak of discovering truth but aren't even aware of your own lies. You're confusion deepens. Saying nothing would cause me to leave Christianity is not a claim. It's my opinion or feeling about my state of belief. If you don't understand what a claim is then it is no surprise you would not understand evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I didn't miss your point. To answer your question, I am not immune to subjectivity. But, I stated some facts to answer your post. Those facts aren't anything but facts. Where is the subjectivity in my statements? Did I state anything that was untrue? You made a statement by quoting a verse and I challenged what significance that verse had in the whole of our lives. You quoted it because I suspect that you believe it is true. I questioned how it could be true and questioned how you could believe it. You made no statements of fact. You made bald assertions along with some regurgitated opinion. Seriously??? Lets take a look: I said: "How do you know that he has "the words to eternal life"? Did you actually hear them spoken from his actual mouth? Has anyone ever shown eternal life to be true? If so, has anyone ever shown a correlation between the words of Jesus and Eternal life?" These are questions that are based upon your assertions. These are merely fact finding questions to see how you came up with the beliefs you hold regarding this particular passage you quoted. These are neither fact nor assertions. I said: "You have read books written by an anonymous authors who have an agenda and have the ability to make stuff up and tell you whatever they think you should hear to try to convince you to believe what they believe. How can you trust anything that you have read?" The authors of the Gospels are anonymous -Fact. The bible is propaganda - Fact (it even says it is). People make stuff up in order to persuade you to believe as they do. This can be done intentionally or unintentionally through their own deception and subjectivity. This still occurs with Christians, and others, to this day- Fact. I said: "There is no difference in what you read in the bible and a blog post from 2003 by Frank in Albuquerque that talks about his Alien abduction. Its all made up and what might be true is subjective to the author's point of view." This is a conclusion based on the evidence we have about the gospels and the bible as a whole. There is very little likelihood that Jesus actually said most of, if anything, you read in the bible, just as there is very little likelihood that Fred in Albuquerque was actually abducted by aliens. In my subjective view, this is a fact and an assertion. Score one for you. I said: "Everything that you know about god and Christianity comes from people who are just winging it, just like you are." This one could be classified an assertion, but it is more accurately described as a conclusion made based on the facts that exist regarding the bible and Christianity as a whole. It is very highly probable that every single thing you have ever read about god and Jesus and have ever heard spoken about them has come from someone who has never seen first hand this God or Jesus, nor has ever had an actual two sided conversation with either of them. Everything that you have ever learned about them has come through the filter of someone else whose belief came from the filter of someone else and so on and so forth til the beginning of Christianity. Everyone is just winging it. That is more fact than assertion. You have a vested self interest in self deception, so your subjective distortion is relevant. How do I have a vested interest in self deception? Based on what evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68 Nothing? John 12:37-40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68 Nothing? John 12:37-40. Yes, nothing. Just because some don't believe does not mean that everyone disbelieves. I don't understand your point in referring to these verses. It is true that I'm at a point in my faith where no real world situation could make me disbelieve. Will this always be the case. I don't know, but at this point I've heard every imaginable atheist spiel and I've dug very deeply into their questions and found nothing of substance to atheism. Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68 Nothing? John 12:37-40. Yes, nothing. Just because some don't believe does not mean that everyone disbelieves. I don't understand your point in referring to these verses. It is true that I'm at a point in my faith where no real world situation could make me disbelieve. Will this always be the case. I don't know, but at this point I've heard every imaginable atheist spiel and I've dug very deeply into their questions and found nothing of substance to atheism. Nothing. The reason why you've found nothing OC is because you are not immune to subjective distortion. You have a vested self-interest in self deception, so your subjective distortion is relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 No real world situation could make you disbelieve. With you calling the shots on what constitutes any possible real world situation. Since you are not immune to self-deception... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 5, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 To the Lurkers, especially those who may still be on the fence, I'd like to draw your attention to the extreme differences between OrdinaryClay and Ironhorse. You will note, for example, with OrdinaryClay, a complete absence of Dylan lyrics, pop culture references, and hollow copy-and-paste apologetics. OrdinaryClay does not engage in the same feel-good emotionalism which marks Ironhorse's belief. In truth, OrdinaryClay is the complete antithesis of the hippie peace and love gospel Ironhorse preaches. You will also note that OrdinaryClay is here to "win" arguments, if only in his own mind. He will do so by any means necessary. Ironhorse rarely, if ever, engages any of us in serious arguments; he'd rather just shrug his shoulders and "agree to disagree." OrdinaryClay quite literally believes that he is at war with the world (spiritually, of course). Ironhorse seems not only comfortable with the world, but also perfectly content to engage in "worldly" activities, if his taste in music, literature, and cigarettes is any indication. OrdinaryClay sees a demon under every rock; Ironhorse merely listens to Rock. Yet, both of these men are firmly and thoroughly convinced that they are representing The One True Faith, The Really Right Religion, The Way to The Truth and The Life. How could two such diametrically opposed extremes both be right? How could two such conflicting worldviews both be true? One of these fellows must be wrong; and both of them could be. But, which one? They both can, and do, use the bible to support the correctness of their beliefs. Yet their beliefs are so radically different from one another, how could any of us know which one, if either, really is right? If the god of christianity expects you to know, based on nothing more than the same bible both of these guys use, which one of them is right, which beliefs are true, which actions are "worldly" and which are not, then I suggest you ask yourself, "Is that really a god worth serving?" If the god of the bible is willing to throw you into hell for not being able to tell which one of them is a false prophet, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a thorn in the side, then I humbly beseech you to take a closer look at the claims of love and everlasting mercy the bible makes concerning god. Look at the immense gulf that separates these two, both in character and belief, and ask yourself, "Is this the best my religion has to offer?" Thanks, TheRedneckProfessor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68 Nothing? John 12:37-40. Yes, nothing. Just because some don't believe does not mean that everyone disbelieves. I don't understand your point in referring to these verses. I was pointing out that the Bible is quite clear that there are times when GOD hardens people's hearts. Surely, if this is true, then it is possible that it could happen to you. Ergo, your statement that nothing could make you leave your faith is false, because God could. It is true that I'm at a point in my faith where no real world situation could make me disbelieve. Will this always be the case. I don't know, but at this point I've heard every imaginable atheist spiel and I've dug very deeply into their questions and found nothing of substance to atheism. Nothing. The bolded text emphasizes the fact that you have spoken flippantly when you replied to theanticrash's original question. What you should have said was "I don't know". To reply "nothing" is either dishonest or a simple mistake. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you spoke in error. You are correct in one thing: there is nothing of substance to atheism. But I don't think you mean the same thing that I do when you say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 5, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 Do not attempt to lie your way out, OrdinaryClay. You DID use this verse to support your claim that "nothing" would make you leave your faith; because the verse itself supports the claim that in jesus alone is eternal life. This is, therefore, the proof you need to justify your belief in jesus; leading you to posit the claim that "nothing" would make you leave your faith. Attempting, then, to redirect with a claim that the verse merely "speaks to you on an emotional level" is nothing more than a lie to hide the real reason you put the verse where you did. god hates liars. That is ONE of the cornerstones of the bible, and hence christianity. I assumed those who claimed to be knowlegable in religion knew this. You speak of discovering truth but aren't even aware of your own lies. You're confusion deepens. Saying nothing would cause me to leave Christianity is not a claim. It's my opinion or feeling about my state of belief. If you don't understand what a claim is then it is no surprise you would not understand evidence. I love your ad hominems. They completely distract everyone from the fact that you lied and I called you on it. The attempts at arguing semantics are also an effective way to keep others from realizing that you have to resort to such played out tactics as redirects and outright lies. Keep up the good work, old boy; we haven't had a real apologist in here for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 This is so exciting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted July 6, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68 This verse has to do with eternity. If this is what your faith is reliant on, it is weak. Basically you are probably afraid of hell. You must remember that not all will make it into that 'kingdom'. A lot of christians will say,''lord, lord, we did our best and the lord is going to turn around and say, ''Turn away from me - I never knew you''. You are afraid of hell. It's why most christians stay in the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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