duderonomy Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I hope OrdinaryClay returns. I enjoy reading his posts. He does well defending his faith. As a believer, I'm glad to see another Christian post here. The posted in this thread is worth taking the time to read. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59185-discussion-with-ordinaryclay-on-eternal-hell-and-the-veracity-of-the-new-testament/?fromsearch=1#.V32JJdIrLq4 On page 5 OC quotes Carl Sagan: "An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed." ~ Carl Sagan The few comments about this quote avoided agreeing or disagreeing with Sagan. Ironhorse, this has come up before. You said you are #2 on the Dawkins scale, and here you seem to be agreeing with Sagan who says one just can't be sure. The Bible says that you can't even come to god unless you believe that he is (Hebrews 11:6). Are you sure you are a Christian, and not just a wishful thinker? How can you have faith in someone who you think most probably exists? How can you have saving faith in a god that according to you might not even exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I hope OrdinaryClay returns. I enjoy reading his posts. He does well defending his faith. As a believer, I'm glad to see another Christian post here. The posted in this thread is worth taking the time to read. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59185-discussion-with-ordinaryclay-on-eternal-hell-and-the-veracity-of-the-new-testament/?fromsearch=1#.V32JJdIrLq4 On page 5 OC quotes Carl Sagan: "An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed." ~ Carl Sagan The few comments about this quote avoided agreeing or disagreeing with Sagan. Ironhorse, Since both you and Clay worship the same God and read the same Bible, why is is that he defends his Christian faith in this forum, whereas you only 'represent' it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I hope OrdinaryClay returns. I enjoy reading his posts. He does well defending his faith. As a believer, I'm glad to see another Christian post here. The posted in this thread is worth taking the time to read. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59185-discussion-with-ordinaryclay-on-eternal-hell-and-the-veracity-of-the-new-testament/?fromsearch=1#.V32JJdIrLq4 On page 5 OC quotes Carl Sagan: "An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed." ~ Carl Sagan The few comments about this quote avoided agreeing or disagreeing with Sagan. Ironhorse, Since both you and Clay worship the same God and read the same Bible, why is is that he defends his Christian faith in this forum, whereas you only 'represent' it? BAA, in the original Greek, defend and represent can both mean the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I hope OrdinaryClay returns. I enjoy reading his posts. He does well defending his faith. As a believer, I'm glad to see another Christian post here. The posted in this thread is worth taking the time to read. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59185-discussion-with-ordinaryclay-on-eternal-hell-and-the-veracity-of-the-new-testament/?fromsearch=1#.V32JJdIrLq4 On page 5 OC quotes Carl Sagan: "An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed." ~ Carl Sagan The few comments about this quote avoided agreeing or disagreeing with Sagan. Ironhorse, this has come up before. You said you are #2 on the Dawkins scale, and here you seem to be agreeing with Sagan who says one just can't be sure. The Bible says that you can't even come to god unless you believe that he is (Hebrews 11:6). Are you sure you are a Christian, and not just a wishful thinker? How can you have faith in someone who you think most probably exists? How can you have saving faith in a god that according to you might not even exist? Yes it has. I go with number 2 on the scale, not because I have any doubts but because I cannot prove God's existence in a test tube. I can't say, 'I know God exists' and then point to God sitting in the corner for all to see. I think that is just being honest with the scale. Richard Dawkins’ Belief Scale Scoring Rubric 1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists. 2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there. 3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God. 4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable. 5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical. 6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there. 7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 This link will be of interest to those that care what I think. https://www.google.com/search?q=ordinaryclay%20site%3Aex-christian.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68 Nothing? John 12:37-40. Yes, nothing. Just because some don't believe does not mean that everyone disbelieves. I don't understand your point in referring to these verses. It is true that I'm at a point in my faith where no real world situation could make me disbelieve. Will this always be the case. I don't know, but at this point I've heard every imaginable atheist spiel and I've dug very deeply into their questions and found nothing of substance to atheism. Nothing. What is belief OrdinaryClay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I hope OrdinaryClay returns. I enjoy reading his posts. He does well defending his faith. As a believer, I'm glad to see another Christian post here. The posted in this thread is worth taking the time to read. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59185-discussion-with-ordinaryclay-on-eternal-hell-and-the-veracity-of-the-new-testament/?fromsearch=1#.V32JJdIrLq4 On page 5 OC quotes Carl Sagan: "An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed." ~ Carl Sagan The few comments about this quote avoided agreeing or disagreeing with Sagan. Ironhorse, Since both you and Clay worship the same God and read the same Bible, why is is that he defends his Christian faith in this forum, whereas you only 'represent' it? Again, if you had a modicum of understanding of the Bible you would know that ... For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, (Rom 12:4) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Bhim actually challenged OrdinaryClay to a proper debate on the relative merits of christianity vs. hinduism. After Bhim produced a well written, thought-provoking, and highly intelligent opening argument, OrdinaryClay simply blew the whole thing off with a typical "you clearly do not understand..." response. Suffice to say, none of us were overly impressed, Bhim least of all. Was it that response which OC, when challenged, said was not an "argument"? It wasn't and Bhim tacitly agreed. He was just out to attack Christ and Christianity, which is is the MO of the vast majority of atheists. You really see this in highlite when you listen to William Lane Craig debates. Atheist debater after atheist debater will, albiet very articulately, simply devolve into attacking Christianity and avoid his arguments. Very telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 But Bhim is not an atheist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 On a personal note (see what I did there?), I'm glad you enjoyed OrdinaryClay's cameo. I'm hoping you'll take a few pointers from him in becoming a better apologist--iron sharpens iron and whatnot. Unfortunately, Clay is a lot like the appearance of god in the book of Job: he shows up in a whirlwind, refuses to answer our questions, and tells us all we're confused. Blow in, blow up, and blow back out again. I doubt you'll get a chance to visit with him again any time soon; but you'll always have us. Regarding Questions http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59185-discussion-with-ordinaryclay-on-eternal-hell-and-the-veracity-of-the-new-testament/page-7#entry903091 "If people genuinely want to know the truth they can look back at my posts and know whether I've engaged the subject. I have answered questions in the past - many times. I do agree I have not answered every question asked of me. Some were disingenuous. Some were re-baked and re-asked multiple ways pretending to be meaningful. Some I missed. Some were simply stupid. Some I don't have time to answer. I'm under no obligation to answer anyone's question to be honest. I can ask questions too." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 But Bhim is not an atheist I know, so I guess he has borrowed their tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I hope OrdinaryClay returns. I enjoy reading his posts. He does well defending his faith. As a believer, I'm glad to see another Christian post here. The posted in this thread is worth taking the time to read. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59185-discussion-with-ordinaryclay-on-eternal-hell-and-the-veracity-of-the-new-testament/?fromsearch=1#.V32JJdIrLq4 On page 5 OC quotes Carl Sagan: "An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed." ~ Carl Sagan The few comments about this quote avoided agreeing or disagreeing with Sagan. Kent Hovind made a similar statement in one of his videos. In his version, he asks the atheist, "Do you understand everything there is to understand in the universe?" Of course, the atheist admits he doesn't. Hovind then proceeds to ask, "Do you understand half of everything there is to understand in the universe?" Again, the atheist is compelled to say, "No." Then Hovind moves in for "the kill" by asking, "Suppose you did understand half of everything there is to understand in the universe. Would it not be possible for god to exist in the other half?" A neat little sleight-of-hand, I admit. But isn't "god" supposed to be omnipresent? If he is, then he would, by definition of his nature, have to exist in both halves of the universe. I don't necessarily agree with Sagan, or Hovind. If there is a "personal" god, who wants to have a "personal" relationship with me, "personally", then I needn't understand all of the subtle and intricate workings of an impersonal universe in order to find that god. On a personal note (see what I did there?), I'm glad you enjoyed OrdinaryClay's cameo. I'm hoping you'll take a few pointers from him in becoming a better apologist--iron sharpens iron and whatnot. Unfortunately, Clay is a lot like the appearance of god in the book of Job: he shows up in a whirlwind, refuses to answer our questions, and tells us all we're confused. Blow in, blow up, and blow back out again. I doubt you'll get a chance to visit with him again any time soon; but you'll always have us. Still my favorite part of Sagan's words are: "An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist ..." The modern internet pseudo-definition of what atheism is, i.e. a lack of belief like my dog lacks belief, is just an intellectually dishonest way of avoiding their burden of proof. It's rhetorical gimmickry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 7, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted July 7, 2016 Damn. I ain't even had my second cup of coffee and OrdinaryClay has already produced (yet another) "you clearly do not understand..." post. Clay, are you even sure you understand what "understand" means? (Now we'll get a wiki-link with a dictionary definition of the word "understand") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 Nothing. John 6:68Nothing? John 12:37-40.Yes, nothing. Just because some don't believe does not mean that everyone disbelieves. I don't understand your point in referring to these verses. It is true that I'm at a point in my faith where no real world situation could make me disbelieve. Will this always be the case. I don't know, but at this point I've heard every imaginable atheist spiel and I've dug very deeply into their questions and found nothing of substance to atheism. Nothing. What is belief OrdinaryClay. Jesus christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I wish you would fast and pray for us. That would give you greater spiritual power in your Internet battles. Remember. Only if you're gonna fast cause that shows how much you care. Without love you get no rewards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I wish you would fast and pray for us. That would give you greater spiritual power in your Internet battles. Remember. Only if you're gonna fast cause that shows how much you care. Without love you get no rewards... Did you fast and pray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I wish you would fast and pray for us. That would give you greater spiritual power in your Internet battles. Remember. Only if you're gonna fast cause that shows how much you care. Without love you get no rewards... Did you fast and pray? Hell yes I did. I did all of that bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 But you'll do it better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I wish you would fast and pray for us. That would give you greater spiritual power in your Internet battles. Remember. Only if you're gonna fast cause that shows how much you care. Without love you get no rewards... Did you fast and pray? Hell yes I did. I did all of that bullshit. Why did you do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 I wish you would fast and pray for us. That would give you greater spiritual power in your Internet battles. Remember. Only if you're gonna fast cause that shows how much you care. Without love you get no rewards... lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 I wish you would fast and pray for us. That would give you greater spiritual power in your Internet battles. Remember. Only if you're gonna fast cause that shows how much you care. Without love you get no rewards... Did you fast and pray?Hell yes I did. I did all of that bullshit. Why did you do it?You know why Wink! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I wish you would fast and pray for us. That would give you greater spiritual power in your Internet battles. Remember. Only if you're gonna fast cause that shows how much you care. Without love you get no rewards... Did you fast and pray?Hell yes I did. I did all of that bullshit. Why did you do it?If you had a modicum of understanding, you would know it's...Because I was brainwashed as a child to believe I had a magical imaginary friend. One similar to the ones you and IH have. Your arrogant attitude here toward people who know just as much and more than you about the bible, its history, it's flaws, and it's context is so offensive to me because it smells like the shit I used to sit in and thought it was roses. You and others come here with your condescending attitudes and just know how we never really got it, or never knew that one verse. IH is just goofy hippy xtian but you sound more like my old circle at one time or another. Thank you for reminding me how I used to think and probably came across to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 7, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted July 7, 2016 OrdinaryClay, I had been given to understand that you fancied yourself as somewhat of a logician. I don't personally fancy myself as one; but I certainly believe it to be a lofty aim. However, and much to my chagrin, I can't help but notice that you continue to ignore my cordial invitation to examine your own logic for flaws. To make certain there is no "confusion" (which I know you're a big fan of), I will restate the question for you: "How can you be certain that you are a true christian based on the exact same "evidence" we used as christians; yet be equally certain that we were not real christians despite us using the same "evidence?" I'm sure such a question should be simple for one as learned in "evidence", history, scripture, and logic as you are. Unless, of course, I am mistaken about your mental fortitude. Have a nice day, TheRedneckProfessor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Bhim actually challenged OrdinaryClay to a proper debate on the relative merits of christianity vs. hinduism. After Bhim produced a well written, thought-provoking, and highly intelligent opening argument, OrdinaryClay simply blew the whole thing off with a typical "you clearly do not understand..." response. Suffice to say, none of us were overly impressed, Bhim least of all. Was it that response which OC, when challenged, said was not an "argument"? It wasn't and Bhim tacitly agreed. Agreed? No, not even tacitly. This is what Bhim said in #38 on the now-locked thread, which the Prof linked: "You haven't responded to my questions or comments on the doctrine of hell or yet given me a compelling reason to believe in the New Testament. Instead you've spent your time attacking my religion on a moral level, as I've attacked yours. I think Ficino is right to quote the ad hominem tu quoque fallacy. This isn't a logically-valid line of reasoning." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I hope OrdinaryClay returns. I enjoy reading his posts. He does well defending his faith. As a believer, I'm glad to see another Christian post here. The posted in this thread is worth taking the time to read. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59185-discussion-with-ordinaryclay-on-eternal-hell-and-the-veracity-of-the-new-testament/?fromsearch=1#.V32JJdIrLq4 On page 5 OC quotes Carl Sagan: "An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed." ~ Carl Sagan The few comments about this quote avoided agreeing or disagreeing with Sagan. Ironhorse, Since both you and Clay worship the same God and read the same Bible, why is is that he defends his Christian faith in this forum, whereas you only 'represent' it? Again, if you had a modicum of understanding of the Bible you would know that ... For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, (Rom 12:4) Not 'again' OC. In this thread this is the first time you've been critical of my understanding of the Bible. Before playing your 'do not understand' card, you should carefully check your facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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