Struggling To Find A Way Back To God

[Shinzon]

I'm highly sensitive & I'm looking into post-traumatic growth. I mainly use bible promises to do it.

elaborate. Im curious what you mean by that.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

As a believer in Christ, I suggest reading the four Gospels. John, I think, is the one to read first.I use other translations of scripture when I am studying a book or passage, but in general use I really like The Message translation. A good site: https://www.biblegateway.com/

 While your at it, why not read some wholesome and moral stuff like Deuteronomy 20:10-20? Or the family-friendly Psalm 137:9? What about the nice family values being proclaimed in Genesis 19:30-36? The entire Book of Revelations is great fun too!

 

Why do skeptics use DESCRIPTIVE passages in the bible & make it PRESCRIPTIVE?Does the Foxes' Book of Martyrs DESCRIBE what happened in history or does it PRESCRIBE the bad behavior of rebellious humans?Do the historical accounts of dictators DESCRIBE what happened or PRESCRIBE the horrors that were done?Also, God has an expressed will & a permissive will ( He allows sentient beings to rebel or have subpar standards & He works with it- polygamy, slavery, war, angry venting like in the imprecatory psalms, blaspheming atheists discussing Him etc.).

 

reading this is like reading anime/sci fi nerds trying to smooth over plot holes. The stuff is as written nothing more nothing less.

 

Allowing someone to commit a heinous act is immoral too, its why aiding and abetting is a crime.

 

 

It's not aiding & abetting. There are rules of engagement in the conflict with good & evil- it's SORT OF God's prime directive. Humans chose to give the dEVIL their allegiance & God allowed the choice. God is love & in God's sphere love is an action word, He tells us to obey & He tells us that disobedience has dire consequences. I used to get mad in the past, I used to wonder why God didn't tell David to leave Bathsheba alone until I wanted to send an email to an atheist friend of mine & God was impressing upon my mind to not do it. I tried, maybe over ten times, to send it & it was blocked somehow ( I was like Balaam with the donkey . When the fog in my mind cleared I was happy it was not sent. Other times I was impressed to not send an email & did anyway & it blew up in my face. Therefore, I had experiential knowledge of how God operates. Just like I ignored that still small voice, David did too!

[Thumbelina]

 

I'm highly sensitive & I'm looking into post-traumatic growth. I mainly use bible promises to do it.

elaborate. Im curious what you mean by that.

 

Let's just say that God is acquainted with my/our grief & He offers comfort presently. The bible promises give a believer hope (Rom 15:4). Just like the post traumatic growth concept, the bible says that trials are not joyous (Heb 12:11)but in the end what was meant for bad will work out for good (Rom 8:18).

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If god "let's" things happen that are against his will, then either he can't prevent them or he doesn't want to. Either he's not omnipotent, or he's a sadistic fuck.

 

Which is it, Thumper?

[Shinzon]

 

 

 

 

As a believer in Christ, I suggest reading the four Gospels. John, I think, is the one to read first.I use other translations of scripture when I am studying a book or passage, but in general use I really like The Message translation. A good site: https://www.biblegateway.com/

 While your at it, why not read some wholesome and moral stuff like Deuteronomy 20:10-20? Or the family-friendly Psalm 137:9? What about the nice family values being proclaimed in Genesis 19:30-36? The entire Book of Revelations is great fun too!

Why do skeptics use DESCRIPTIVE passages in the bible & make it PRESCRIPTIVE?Does the Foxes' Book of Martyrs DESCRIBE what happened in history or does it PRESCRIBE the bad behavior of rebellious humans?Do the historical accounts of dictators DESCRIBE what happened or PRESCRIBE the horrors that were done?Also, God has an expressed will & a permissive will ( He allows sentient beings to rebel or have subpar standards & He works with it- polygamy, slavery, war, angry venting like in the imprecatory psalms, blaspheming atheists discussing Him etc.).

reading this is like reading anime/sci fi nerds trying to smooth over plot holes. The stuff is as written nothing more nothing less.Allowing someone to commit a heinous act is immoral too, its why aiding and abetting is a crime.

It's not aiding & abetting. There are rules of engagement in the conflict with good & evil. Humans chose to give the dEVIL their allegiance & God allowed the choice. God is love & in God's sphere love is an action word, He tells us to obey & He tells us that disobedience has dire consequences. I used to get mad in the past, I used to wonder why God didn't tell David to leave Bathsheba alone until I wanted to send an email to an atheist friend of mine & God was impressing upon my mind to not do it. I tried, maybe over ten times, to send it & it was blocked somehow ( I was like Balaam with the donkey . When the fog in my mind cleared I was happy it was not sent. Other times I was impressed to not send an email & did anyway & it blew up in my face. Therefore, I had experiential knowledge of how God operates. Just like I ignored that still small voice, David did too!

then you reject the idea that people have a moral responsibility to prevent harm? Or does power relieve one of ethical responsibilties? Or do you belive that the ethics that come from you god do not also apply to him?

[rjn]

 

 

As a believer in Christ, I suggest reading the four Gospels. John, I think, is the one to read first.

I use other translations of scripture when I am studying a book or passage, but in general use I really like The Message translation.

 

A good site:

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/

 

While your at it, why not read some wholesome and moral stuff like Deuteronomy 20:10-20? Or the family-friendly Psalm 137:9? What about the nice family values being proclaimed in Genesis 19:30-36? The entire Book of Revelations is great fun too!

 

 

Why do skeptics use DESCRIPTIVE passages in the bible & make it PRESCRIPTIVE?

Does the Foxes' Book of Martyrs DESCRIBE what happened in history or does it PRESCRIBE the bad behavior of rebellious humans?

Do the historical accounts of dictators DESCRIBE what happened or PRESCRIBE the horrors that were done?

 

Also, God has an expressed will & a permissive will ( He allows sentient beings to rebel or have subpar standards & He works with it- polygamy, slavery, war, angry venting like in the imprecatory psalms, blaspheming atheists discussing Him etc.).

 

 

That verse from Deuteronomy looks a lot like a command or an allowance to me, not a "description". Lot, Jephtah, Solomon, all these are godly men no? And still, they committed acts most Christians would claim as "immoral" if anyone else did it.

[Thumbelina]

If god "let's" things happen that are against his will, then either he can't prevent them or he doesn't want to. Either he's not omnipotent, or he's a sadistic fuck.

 

Which is it, Thumper?

To the believer, death is just a SLEEP, fear (negative fear) is of the devil & the Christian God says "Fear Not" ( I learned that in the original language, when God gives a command it means He's providing the power to go with it). He says do not fear created beings but fear (positive fear that means respect, revere) Him (Matthew 10:28). The believer is promised the godly peace that passes understanding & NOT worldly peace (John 14:27).

 

He's omniscient & HUMBLE, He's authoritative & NOT authoritarian, He's also the resurrection & the life therefore while death is an enemy (1 Corinthians 15:26), He can overcome that. A selfless God had to let the mystery of iniquity (2 Thess 2:7) manifest itself & play out so partakers & onlookers will see that it's no bueno. Being omniscient, He knew what evil entailed but others didn't (Gen 2:17). God suffers with us (Romans 8:22)but He will make it better for those who believe (Revelation 21:4)

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

 

As a believer in Christ, I suggest reading the four Gospels. John, I think, is the one to read first.I use other translations of scripture when I am studying a book or passage, but in general use I really like The Message translation. A good site: https://www.biblegateway.com/

 While your at it, why not read some wholesome and moral stuff like Deuteronomy 20:10-20? Or the family-friendly Psalm 137:9? What about the nice family values being proclaimed in Genesis 19:30-36? The entire Book of Revelations is great fun too!

 

Why do skeptics use DESCRIPTIVE passages in the bible & make it PRESCRIPTIVE?Does the Foxes' Book of Martyrs DESCRIBE what happened in history or does it PRESCRIBE the bad behavior of rebellious humans?Do the historical accounts of dictators DESCRIBE what happened or PRESCRIBE the horrors that were done?Also, God has an expressed will & a permissive will ( He allows sentient beings to rebel or have subpar standards & He works with it- polygamy, slavery, war, angry venting like in the imprecatory psalms, blaspheming atheists discussing Him etc.).

 

reading this is like reading anime/sci fi nerds trying to smooth over plot holes. The stuff is as written nothing more nothing less.Allowing someone to commit a heinous act is immoral too, its why aiding and abetting is a crime.

 

It's not aiding & abetting. There are rules of engagement in the conflict with good & evil. Humans chose to give the dEVIL their allegiance & God allowed the choice. God is love & in God's sphere love is an action word, He tells us to obey & He tells us that disobedience has dire consequences. I used to get mad in the past, I used to wonder why God didn't tell David to leave Bathsheba alone until I wanted to send an email to an atheist friend of mine & God was impressing upon my mind to not do it. I tried, maybe over ten times, to send it & it was blocked somehow ( I was like Balaam with the donkey . When the fog in my mind cleared I was happy it was not sent. Other times I was impressed to not send an email & did anyway & it blew up in my face. Therefore, I had experiential knowledge of how God operates. Just like I ignored that still small voice, David did too!

 

then you reject the idea that people have a moral responsibility to prevent harm? Or does power relieve one of ethical responsibilties? Or do you belive that the ethics that come from you god do not also apply to him?

 

Stop equating finite beings with an infinite God. The bible says God created evil (calamity, not moral evil/selfishness)& He cursed the ground for man's sake (Gen 3:17). What does that mean? If a surgeon cuts his patient, is it to heal them or kill them? If a butcher cuts his prey, is it to kill it or heal it? God is the surgeon! death is no biggie for Him. Look at the acted parable with Jairus & his daughter & the woman with the issue of blood, it teaches that God, the great physician, can heal a chronic case before an acute case (the girl died quickly) & not get sued for malpractice because He is the resurrection & the life!

We humans CAN'T do that! A human doc' had better take care of the acute case first or else he might end up in jail or under house arrest or something like that.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

As a believer in Christ, I suggest reading the four Gospels. John, I think, is the one to read first.

I use other translations of scripture when I am studying a book or passage, but in general use I really like The Message translation.

 

A good site:

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/

 

While your at it, why not read some wholesome and moral stuff like Deuteronomy 20:10-20? Or the family-friendly Psalm 137:9? What about the nice family values being proclaimed in Genesis 19:30-36? The entire Book of Revelations is great fun too!

 

 

Why do skeptics use DESCRIPTIVE passages in the bible & make it PRESCRIPTIVE?

Does the Foxes' Book of Martyrs DESCRIBE what happened in history or does it PRESCRIBE the bad behavior of rebellious humans?

Do the historical accounts of dictators DESCRIBE what happened or PRESCRIBE the horrors that were done?

 

Also, God has an expressed will & a permissive will ( He allows sentient beings to rebel or have subpar standards & He works with it- polygamy, slavery, war, angry venting like in the imprecatory psalms, blaspheming atheists discussing Him etc.).

 

 

That verse from Deuteronomy looks a lot like a command or an allowance to me, not a "description". Lot, Jephtah, Solomon, all these are godly men no? And still, they committed acts most Christians would claim as "immoral" if anyone else did it.

 

 

ALL have sinned & come short of the glory (character) of God. If any man says he has no sin he is a liar & the truth is not in him. Sin is falling short/missing the mark, iniquity is a continual bent to self. That's why in the biblical parable Jesus told some Christians "depart from me workers of iniquity". Enoch sinned, just like the rest of humankind, he fell short of God's standard but he was not iniquitous (continually sinful & selfish)& God was pleased & took him. Enoch was a rare breed, most of us mess up over & over again. However, the bible says a live dog is better than a dead lion, though sins make us well, dirty, generally, once we're alive, we can repent. Those people you mentioned did evil but they repented. You forgot Manasseh, he was evil personified for a long time but he repented.

[florduh]

I'm waiting for the collection plate to be passed.......

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, god needs for 10 year old little girls to be raped so that they understand evil the way he understands it. Your god is a sadistic fuck; who are you that you would worship him?

[sdelsolray]

Every three months or so, this theist shows up here and vomits her dogma.

[Thought2Much]

So, god needs for 10 year old little girls to be raped so that they understand evil the way he understands it. Your god is a sadistic fuck; who are you that you would worship him?

 

People follow the god they create in their own head... which is why Thumbelina is good for keeping me from even thinking about going back to Christianity. What kind of horrible person creates a horrible god like that to follow?

[LogicalFallacy]

So what sect does Thumbelina belong to? Certainly not Ironhorse's

 

"Why do skeptics use DESCRIPTIVE passages in the bible & make it PRESCRIPTIVE?"

 

Much of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are prescriptive.

 

That aside, this is supposed to be God inerrant, divine message for mankind for all time. It is supposed to transcend time and cultures. Instead it shows all the hallmarks of being largely written by people influenced by their culture, other cultures and the world at the time, then cobbled together by a bunch of people to try and put a unified message out.

 

 

And what thought2much said. I was thinking in Church yesterday as the sermon was about what God is. And I thought there are X people in this church, no one has exactly the same idea of what God is. That makes at least x different God's. Does anyone ever think about this, or is it the book of Act "one heart and one accord"?

[florduh]

We always reach an impasse when discussing such things with believers. Of course this is because faith, which be definition means there is a lack of proof, will always trump logic and factual information. Religious faith, deliberately believing in something that defies logic, is the source of power for the religious.

 

When trying to argue an article of faith against the sea of logic and evidence found around here, believers always make an error. They make assumptions about what non-believers or skeptics believe, think, and often assign us an agenda we are supposedly advancing. They are clueless when making assumptions about us because they haven't had our experience. However, we have had their experience. We have studied the Bible, the commentaries, original languages, taught Sunday school, earned relevant degrees, and have been preachers and apologists. We know where they come from because we have been there ourselves. The only way to reconcile our ever leaving the fold is to claim we were never exposed to True Christianity, even though between us we have probably been immersed in dozens of different Christian sects. Obviously all of those were false since nobody would ever leave the true denomination!

 

... and of course every believer is in his/her own separate true denomination. It's true because some pastor or author told them so.

[Margee]

We always reach an impasse when discussing such things with believers. Of course this is because faith, which be definition means there is a lack of proof, will always trump logic and factual information. Religious faith, deliberately believing in something that defies logic, is the source of power for the religious.

 

When trying to argue an article of faith against the sea of logic and evidence found around here, believers always make an error. They make assumptions about what non-believers or skeptics believe, think, and often assign us an agenda we are supposedly advancing. They are clueless when making assumptions about us because they haven't had our experience. However, we have had their experience. We have studied the Bible, the commentaries, original languages, taught Sunday school, earned relevant degrees, and have been preachers and apologists. We know where they come from because we have been there ourselves. The only way to reconcile our ever leaving the fold is to claim we were never exposed to True Christianity, even though between us we have probably been immersed in dozens of different Christian sects. Obviously all of those were false since nobody would ever leave the true denomination!

 

... and of course every believer is in his/her own separate true denomination. It's true because some pastor or author told them so.

 

Always...Thank you florduh for the great points you make. Awesome.

[bornagainathiest]

So what sect does Thumbelina belong to? Certainly not Ironhorse's

 

"Why do skeptics use DESCRIPTIVE passages in the bible & make it PRESCRIPTIVE?"

 

Much of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are prescriptive.

 

That aside, this is supposed to be God inerrant, divine message for mankind for all time. It is supposed to transcend time and cultures. Instead it shows all the hallmarks of being largely written by people influenced by their culture, other cultures and the world at the time, then cobbled together by a bunch of people to try and put a unified message out.

 

 

And what thought2much said. I was thinking in Church yesterday as the sermon was about what God is. And I thought there are X people in this church, no one has exactly the same idea of what God is. That makes at least x different God's. Does anyone ever think about this, or is it the book of Act "one heart and one accord"?

 

Try asking Thumbelina if she's a Seventh Day Adventist and see just how much truth you can get out of her, LF.

[LogicalFallacy]

Thanks BAA, I think I'll stick to trying to crack an answer out of Ironhorse. Might be spreading myself to thin between multiple threads here, websites, and youtube debates lol

[bornagainathiest]

Marian,

 

If you are reading this thread, please have nothing to do with Thumbelina.

Don't pay any attention to anything she writes.  Don't respond to anything she's written.  Don't ask her any questions.  Completely and totally ignore her.  She is an irredeemable and harmful religious fanatic. 

 

Long ago Thumbelina was confined to the Lion's Den for abusing a new member of Ex-C.

She took confidential, personal information that this member had placed in the Testimonies sub-forum, copied it over to the Den and then used it to further her religious agenda, putting her beliefs above having respect for that members privacy.  For that violation of trust and breaking of the rules the Moderators confined her to the Den so that she couldn't wreak any more harm to anyone else, in any of the other sub-forums.

 

Please avoid being hurt by her by totally and completely ignoring her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA. 

[bornagainathiest]

Thanks BAA, I think I'll stick to trying to crack an answer out of Ironhorse. Might be spreading myself to thin between multiple threads here, websites, and youtube debates lol

 

 

Not a problem, friend.

 

Your time would be better spent elsewhere.

[Thumbelina]

TheRedneckProfessor: So, god needs for 10 year old little girls to be raped so that they understand evil the way he understands it. Your god is a sadistic fuck; who are you that you would worship him?

 

 

 

Thumbelina: God wants creation to abhor sin like He does. People tend to adjust to smelly situations when they're in it long enough but why smell bad things when there are perfect & beautiful fragrances out there? Sin cannot be tolerated by a holy God, a little leaven (sin) leavens the whole lump. We say one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. Doubting God & stealing fruit seemed trivial but it resulted in the mess of a world we have today.

 

My God came in the flesh to experience what suffering humanity goes through. He was as poor as a church mouse, not cute, experienced deep hunger, betrayed, harassed & bullied, humiliated, abused- He can identify with the ten year old who was raped for he was stripped completely naked for many to see & was manhandled; He was tortured & eventually murdered & taunted while He was dying too.

 

I am a sinner in need of a savior.

[florduh]

Thumby, sorry but that's a very sad and even destructive mindset and it's based on no evidence whatsoever. Still love ya!

[bornagainathiest]

TheRedneckProfessor: So, god needs for 10 year old little girls to be raped so that they understand evil the way he understands it. Your god is a sadistic fuck; who are you that you would worship him?

 

 

 

Thumbelina: God wants creation to abhor sin like He does. People tend to adjust to smelly situations when they're in it long enough but why smell bad things when there are perfect & beautiful fragrances out there? Sin cannot be tolerated by a holy God, a little leaven (sin) leavens the whole lump. We say one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. Doubting God & stealing fruit seemed trivial but it resulted in the mess of a world we have today.

 

My God came in the flesh to experience what suffering humanity goes through. He was as poor as a church mouse, not cute, experienced deep hunger, betrayed, harassed & bullied, humiliated, abused- He can identify with the ten year old who was raped for he was stripped completely naked for many to see & was manhandled; He was tortured & eventually murdered & taunted while He was dying too.

 

I am a sinner in need of a savior.

 

You are only a sinner if the events in Eden actually happened, Thumby.

 

Q.

Now, since you believe they did by faith, what is it that has made you a sinner?

 

A.

Your faith.

 

So you don't need a savior because your need for one is just a construct of your faith.

[Shinzon]

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a believer in Christ, I suggest reading the four Gospels. John, I think, is the one to read first.I use other translations of scripture when I am studying a book or passage, but in general use I really like The Message translation. A good site: https://www.biblegateway.com/

 While your at it, why not read some wholesome and moral stuff like Deuteronomy 20:10-20? Or the family-friendly Psalm 137:9? What about the nice family values being proclaimed in Genesis 19:30-36? The entire Book of Revelations is great fun too!

Why do skeptics use DESCRIPTIVE passages in the bible & make it PRESCRIPTIVE?Does the Foxes' Book of Martyrs DESCRIBE what happened in history or does it PRESCRIBE the bad behavior of rebellious humans?Do the historical accounts of dictators DESCRIBE what happened or PRESCRIBE the horrors that were done?Also, God has an expressed will & a permissive will ( He allows sentient beings to rebel or have subpar standards & He works with it- polygamy, slavery, war, angry venting like in the imprecatory psalms, blaspheming atheists discussing Him etc.).

reading this is like reading anime/sci fi nerds trying to smooth over plot holes. The stuff is as written nothing more nothing less.Allowing someone to commit a heinous act is immoral too, its why aiding and abetting is a crime.

It's not aiding & abetting. There are rules of engagement in the conflict with good & evil. Humans chose to give the dEVIL their allegiance & God allowed the choice. God is love & in God's sphere love is an action word, He tells us to obey & He tells us that disobedience has dire consequences. I used to get mad in the past, I used to wonder why God didn't tell David to leave Bathsheba alone until I wanted to send an email to an atheist friend of mine & God was impressing upon my mind to not do it. I tried, maybe over ten times, to send it & it was blocked somehow ( I was like Balaam with the donkey . When the fog in my mind cleared I was happy it was not sent. Other times I was impressed to not send an email & did anyway & it blew up in my face. Therefore, I had experiential knowledge of how God operates. Just like I ignored that still small voice, David did too!

then you reject the idea that people have a moral responsibility to prevent harm? Or does power relieve one of ethical responsibilties? Or do you belive that the ethics that come from you god do not also apply to him?

Stop equating finite beings with an infinite God. The bible says God created evil (calamity, not moral evil/selfishness)& He cursed the ground for man's sake (Gen 3:17). What does that mean? If a surgeon cuts his patient, is it to heal them or kill them? If a butcher cuts his prey, is it to kill it or heal it? God is the surgeon! death is no biggie for Him. Look at the acted parable with Jairus & his daughter & the woman with the issue of blood, it teaches that God, the great physician, can heal a chronic case before an acute case (the girl died quickly) & not get sued for malpractice because He is the resurrection & the life!We humans CAN'T do that! A human doc' had better take care of the acute case first or else he might end up in jail or under house arrest or something like that.

so he is allowed to break his own rules. So much for being the author of morality. I thought we all agreed that do as i say not as i do was a inconsistent idea.

[midniterider]

 

 

ALL have sinned & come short of the glory (character) of God. If any man says he has no sin he is a liar & the truth is not in him. Sin is falling short/missing the mark, iniquity is a continual bent to self. That's why in the biblical parable Jesus told some Christians "depart from me workers of iniquity". Enoch sinned, just like the rest of humankind, he fell short of God's standard but he was not iniquitous (continually sinful & selfish)& God was pleased & took him. Enoch was a rare breed, most of us mess up over & over again. However, the bible says a live dog is better than a dead lion, though sins make us well, dirty, generally, once we're alive, we can repent. Those people you mentioned did evil but they repented. You forgot Manasseh, he was evil personified for a long time but he repented.

 

 

Offers Thumbelina a Xanax.