Shroud Of-- Please Stop

[Diddlyboop]

Oh gosh. Said Christian in the Dillahunty video did bring up the haemoglobin as part of the authenticating evidence -- hearing your take on that has calmed my nerves, even if only a little bit. ;u;

 

Thanks, guys, feel free to keep the help coming if you wanna. Obviously some of you are a lot more science-y than I am. XD

[Burny]

Oh gosh. Said Christian in the Dillahunty video did bring up the haemoglobin as part of the authenticating evidence -- hearing your take on that has calmed my nerves, even if only a little bit. ;u;

Thanks, guys, feel free to keep the help coming if you wanna. Obviously some of you are a lot more science-y than I am. XD

It's all about what you're used to and what you've been taught since birth.

 

Think about how easily you dismissed creationism as a Christian. That makes zero sense. How can evolution be true when there is no first humans to commit sin in evolutionary theory? Adam and Eve can't be real if evolution is true - there is no first human. Therefore there's no such thing as sin. Therefore Jesus isn't needed to save anyone from their sins. Therefore Christianity doesn't make any sense. Jesus preached that Adam and Eve were real - as god, he should have known better if he kickstarted evolution, no?

 

It's fascinating that we're only afraid of the boogeymen that we know about - real or not. There are thousands of other Hells from other religions that millions of other folks have fought and died over, yet they don't worry you one little bit. Ask yourself why you're not afraid of Viking hell or Mormon hell? Why should you be scared of Christian hell then?

 

Its all the same load of crap.

[rjn]

 

Oh gosh. Said Christian in the Dillahunty video did bring up the haemoglobin as part of the authenticating evidence -- hearing your take on that has calmed my nerves, even if only a little bit. ;u;

Thanks, guys, feel free to keep the help coming if you wanna. Obviously some of you are a lot more science-y than I am. XD

It's all about what you're used to and what you've been taught since birth.

 

Think about how easily you dismissed creationism as a Christian. That makes zero sense. How can evolution be true when there is no first humans to commit sin in evolutionary theory? Adam and Eve can't be real if evolution is true - there is no first human. Therefore there's no such thing as sin. Therefore Jesus isn't needed to save anyone from their sins. Therefore Christianity doesn't make any sense. Jesus preached that Adam and Eve were real - as god, he should have known better if he kickstarted evolution, no?

 

It's fascinating that we're only afraid of the boogeymen that we know about - real or not. There are thousands of other Hells from other religions that millions of other folks have fought and died over, yet they don't worry you one little bit. Ask yourself why you're not afraid of Viking hell or Mormon hell? Why should you be scared of Christian hell then?

 

Its all the same load of crap.

 

 

"Viking Hell" (more properly, Norse/North Germanic/Germanic Pagan) was called just that, Hell, or - in Old Norse - Hel, with only one L, and it's cognate (genetically related, English and North Germanic languages are close relatives) with, or even forms the basis of, the English counterpart. Just like "Hades" - the Greek, generic realm of the dead - was used to translate the Hebrew word "Sheol", the Jewish realm of the dead, so was Germanic "Hel(l)" used to translate Hades for a Germanic-speaking culture. Hel(l) was not generally thought of as a place of torment, but simply as the resting place of the Dead. So, a people that had no concept of divine, everlasting punishment after death spawned a religion that originally had, at most, an ambigious view of such a concept, and the words appropriated to translate that concept into other languages were even more ambigious and did not mean "place of torture". 

 

So, why do I keep mentioning this? Well, people often go "Well, in many instances, it says Hades or Sheol in the original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic", but still assume "Hell" is something different, something terrible. Why didn't the preachers and Bible-writers adopt words and concepts that people were familar with, and that unambigiously DID refer to places of torture and punishment? Like, Tartaros (Which is mentioned ONCE in the Greek Bible), or in the case of Germanic cultures, Nástrond, where oath-breakers and other dishonorable people where believed to reside? 

[Diddlyboop]

I didn't know that Jebus mentioned Adam or Eve. And as for the whole acceptance of evolution, my head just rationalized it as "oh, well the first likely massive group of humans developed and that's when sin began. ... right?" Even then I was still confused.

 

I didn't really believe in original sin as a concept, though. I thought everyone was born fine and the moment something bad happened jEBUS.

 

Now, I'm much relieved to know that Jesus himself never even said so much as Hades, or Tartarus, or anything. He only ever mentioned a freakin' dump.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that crazy over-the-top Revelations book mention Hades? I think that was the only book of the bible that mentioned Hades specifically, but even then it was a dime-a-dozen sort of writing at the time and apparently was quite politically aimed as opposed to divine.

[rjn]

I didn't know that Jebus mentioned Adam or Eve. And as for the whole acceptance of evolution, my head just rationalized it as "oh, well the first likely massive group of humans developed and that's when sin began. ... right?" Even then I was still confused.

 

I didn't really believe in original sin as a concept, though. I thought everyone was born fine and the moment something bad happened jEBUS.

 

Now, I'm much relieved to know that Jesus himself never even said so much as Hades, or Tartarus, or anything. He only ever mentioned a freakin' dump.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that crazy over-the-top Revelations book mention Hades? I think that was the only book of the bible that mentioned Hades specifically, but even then it was a dime-a-dozen sort of writing at the time and apparently was quite politically aimed as opposed to divine.

 

Hades (translated into "Hell" in KJV) is mentioned several times in the Bible, but Hades is not the exclusively a place of never-ending torture. Hades is, quite simply, Death. It was the closest thing in Greco-Roman Mythology to Hebrew Sheol, which is why they used that word in the Septuagint and New Testament. See my post above. 

[Diddlyboop]

... Well. That just extinguished my fear of hell pretty quick. I thought Hades was some sorta scary torture chamber. Woops..

[rjn]

... Well. That just extinguished my fear of hell pretty quick. I thought Hades was some sorta scary torture chamber. Woops..

 

Pagan mythologies like Greek/Roman or Norse are rarely set in stone. There was a plethora of different believes regarding the nature of the Gods, the Afterlife and just about anything. There was no unquestionable dogma or scripture on which a literalist interpretation could be based. Concepts like sin and reward/punishment exist in those religions as well, but severe punishment was reserved for serious transgressors only, and it may have been viewed as temporal. Pagan religions, diverse as they may be, usually have a few common denominators. Animism is one, and a cyclical view of the world is another. The myths were most likely thought to be largely metaphorical, even to simple folks, and definitely to the more philosophically inclined.

[Thurisaz]

... Well. That just extinguished my fear of hell pretty quick. I thought Hades was some sorta scary torture chamber. Woops..

 

I just skimmed part of the thread so maybe I'm double-posting now but what the fuck...

 

Never forget that the jebus cult relabeled and reinterpreted pretty much everything. Hell? Where does that term come from?

Let me introduce you to the ancient Nordic (Germanic/Skandinavian) term "Hel" which is the name for both the generic realm of the dead (jike rjn said above, not a place of torment - that's what Nastrond is for, if that is even an original part of the beliefs and not just something assimilated from the jebus cult) and for the Goddess lording over it. Compare to Hades. See a pattern there?

 

How to tell a morontheist is lying? Their lips are moving.

[LogicalFallacy]

Diddlyboop, you mentioned believing in evolution. Basically the bible, for it to be true, including the shroud, requires Adam and Eve to be true, for there to be an original sin, and there to be a curse on all creation. If they didn't exist the New Testament is worthless (Which is why preachers still go on about Adam and Eve even though they don't think they existed)

 

So evolution = no Adam and Eve = bible is not true = Jesus not son of God  = shroud not real

 

= Case Closed. 

[Diddlyboop]

Well, I'm definitely feeling a lot better about the whole hell thing, at least. If nothing but nothing is waiting for me, I'm totally cool with that.

 

I mean.. I don't know how the whole burning would work anyway if I can no longer feel physical pain, but -- eh, why bother with the mental gymnastics if you know it's a crock fear tactic developed by cruel men anyways?

 

To be honest, though, the thing that honestly has been making me feel more comfortable with my decision has been reading about death. There are all sorts of near-death videos claiming to show proof of an afterlife, though all of them differ on the details...

 

But my father, who is still a Christian, told me that he's flat-lined 3 times and there was nothing at all. Reading of similar nada experiences makes me feel a lot better. I hope that's not terrible sounding -- I promise I'm not some evil girl taking pleasure in people dying, it just makes me a little more confident that there will be nothing waiting for me when I go.

[Shinzon]

The problem i had with hell was it didnt make a ton of sense. If hell is eternal it means it was everlasting which means its use was preplanned(which is sadism in any other nontheistic context), or it was created which means by christian logic means its not everlasting.

[Diddlyboop]

Yeah, it really never made much sense to me even when I was Christian... in fact most of the time I was wondering why God had such a scary place planned anyway, if he was so loving. Hell (pun intended), it wasn't even just, either...

 

Either way, I'm sorry for dragging the thread off topic. But I am glad you guys have been so helpful ;u;

[Shinzon]

Hey its your thread, do how you like.

 

My suggestion general is think and read about till your sick of it. It took me a few years to finally get to the point where i was absolutely comfortable with what i knew to be true.

[rjn]

 

... Well. That just extinguished my fear of hell pretty quick. I thought Hades was some sorta scary torture chamber. Woops..

 

I just skimmed part of the thread so maybe I'm double-posting now but what the fuck...

 

Never forget that the jebus cult relabeled and reinterpreted pretty much everything. Hell? Where does that term come from?

Let me introduce you to the ancient Nordic (Germanic/Skandinavian) term "Hel" which is the name for both the generic realm of the dead (jike rjn said above, not a place of torment - that's what Nastrond is for, if that is even an original part of the beliefs and not just something assimilated from the jebus cult) and for the Goddess lording over it. Compare to Hades. See a pattern there?

 

How to tell a morontheist is lying? Their lips are moving.

 

 

It's probably an old belief, but perhaps it was reinforced by Christian influence. The Norse Underworld is very similar to the Greco-Roman one (cf. Kerberos with Garmr, Hel and Hades, Valhalla/Gladsheim and Elysium and so on) which is due to both a shared heritage (some of those themes and symbols are fairly universal and might date as far back as the Paleolithic, others are more typical of Indo-European cultures) and cultural influence. The average European pagan, especially in the far North, probably believed in some form of reincarnation, at least in the bigger scheme of things. The emphasis on ancestor cults, birth-death-rebirth myths, cyclical view of the World and so on indicates as much. 

[sdelsolray]

Well, I'm definitely feeling a lot better about the whole hell thing, at least. If nothing but nothing is waiting for me, I'm totally cool with that.

 

I mean.. I don't know how the whole burning would work anyway if I can no longer feel physical pain, but -- eh, why bother with the mental gymnastics if you know it's a crock fear tactic developed by cruel men anyways?

 

To be honest, though, the thing that honestly has been making me feel more comfortable with my decision has been reading about death. There are all sorts of near-death videos claiming to show proof of an afterlife, though all of them differ on the details...

 

But my father, who is still a Christian, told me that he's flat-lined 3 times and there was nothing at all. Reading of similar nada experiences makes me feel a lot better. I hope that's not terrible sounding -- I promise I'm not some evil girl taking pleasure in people dying, it just makes me a little more confident that there will be nothing waiting for me when I go.

 

 

 

Diddlyboop,

 

Several posters have suggested or implied that your core issue is not what bothers you or makes you afraid but is how your use your brain to experience, address and cope with those bothers or fears.

 

Several have given you accurate information about hell that you have processed and stated your fear has diminished.  This means at least that the information you had beforehand was not accurate or skeptically explored by you.

 

Now you are raising a new topic, near death experiences ("NDEs").  I suspect you are also misinformed or under informed about NDEs, perhaps because your exposure into the topic has been skewed by a plethora of religious, biased and pseudoscientific sources.  Put more simply, you have only been exposed to the junk and nonsense and have not sought out rational and realistic sources.

 

My point is that a healthy mind is able to distinguish nonsense from reality.  You appear to be able to do so, but still exhibit an inability to do so, particularly when it comes to the religion into which you were indoctrinated by trusted adults.  This is not because your brain does not work properly, but is because you do not invest the time to research the topic rationally.  Perhaps this is due to habit, or inexperience or some other reason.  Regardless, it is a rather simple thing to fix.

 

I suggest you spend some time with studying and understanding some rather basic concepts:  rational thinking, skepticism, scientific method, informal logical fallacies, confirmation bias, expectation bias, lies and misrepresentation.

 

Carl Sagan called it a "Baloney Detection Toolkit".

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Well, I'm definitely feeling a lot better about the whole hell thing, at least. If nothing but nothing is waiting for me, I'm totally cool with that.

 

I mean.. I don't know how the whole burning would work anyway if I can no longer feel physical pain, but -- eh, why bother with the mental gymnastics if you know it's a crock fear tactic developed by cruel men anyways?

 

To be honest, though, the thing that honestly has been making me feel more comfortable with my decision has been reading about death. There are all sorts of near-death videos claiming to show proof of an afterlife, though all of them differ on the details...

 

But my father, who is still a Christian, told me that he's flat-lined 3 times and there was nothing at all. Reading of similar nada experiences makes me feel a lot better. I hope that's not terrible sounding -- I promise I'm not some evil girl taking pleasure in people dying, it just makes me a little more confident that there will be nothing waiting for me when I go.

 

 

 

Diddlyboop,

 

Several posters have suggested or implied that your core issue is not what bothers you or makes you afraid but is how your use your brain to experience, address and cope with those bothers or fears.

 

Several have given you accurate information about hell that you have processed and stated your fear has diminished.  This means at least that the information you had beforehand was not accurate or skeptically explored by you.

 

Now you are raising a new topic, near death experiences ("NDEs").  I suspect you are also misinformed or under informed about NDEs, perhaps because your exposure into the topic has been skewed by a plethora of religious, biased and pseudoscientific sources.  Put more simply, you have only been exposed to the junk and nonsense and have not sought out rational and realistic sources.

 

My point is that a healthy mind is able to distinguish nonsense from reality.  You appear to be able to do so, but still exhibit an inability to do so, particularly when it comes to the religion into which you were indoctrinated by trusted adults.  This is not because your brain does not work properly, but is because you do not invest the time to research the topic rationally.  Perhaps this is due to habit, or inexperience or some other reason.  Regardless, it is a rather simple thing to fix.

 

I suggest you spend some time with studying and understanding some rather basic concepts:  rational thinking, skepticism, scientific method, informal logical fallacies, confirmation bias, expectation bias, lies and misrepresentation.

 

Carl Sagan called it a "Baloney Detection Toolkit".

 

Ditto to sdelsolray. Great advice there.

[Diddlyboop]

Sincerest apologies on my part. ^^; I didn't mean to change the subject. But thank you, everyone.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Isaiah 52:14, which Christians insist is a prophecy about Jesus, says that his appearance was marred beyond that of any man. That is not at all what is represented on the Shroud of Turin, which has a pretty clear depiction of a face. So, if there was any possibility of the shroud actually containing Jesus' image, then it would prove that prophecy to be false. Thus, even if you take the shroud as evidence, it actually undermines the Bible.

[Diddlyboop]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Isaiah 52:14, which Christians insist is a prophecy about Jesus, says that he was marred beyond that of any man. That is not at all what is represented on the Shroud of Turin, which has a pretty clear depiction of a face. So, if there was any possibility of the shroud actually containing Jesus' image, then it would prove that prophecy to be false. Thus, even if you take the shroud as evidence, it actually undermines the Bible.

[Diddlyboop]

Woops! Honestly, I need to get more used to how this site works.

 

But wow, I didn't even know about that prophecy. Thanks a ton, you've helped even more!

[♦ ficino ♦]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Isaiah 52:14, which Christians insist is a prophecy about Jesus, says that he was marred beyond that of any man. That is not at all what is represented on the Shroud of Turin, which has a pretty clear depiction of a face. So, if there was any possibility of the shroud actually containing Jesus' image, then it would prove that prophecy to be false. Thus, even if you take the shroud as evidence, it actually undermines the Bible.

Cool, I never thought of that either! But can't the apologist reply that Jesus' face was reconstituted miraculously when all the energy surged through his dead body to bring it back to life? The energy that caused the image to be left on the shroud?

 

Apologists love to bring in unsupported auxiliary assumptions that can't be falsified.

[Castiel233]

Let the whole matter drop, seriously. Be kind to yourself. Not every piece of Christianity can be debunked, enough of it is clearly false that we can be confident that it isn't true.

 

Constantly seeking reassurance against Christian claims is a fools paridise. Religion is based on supernatural claims that have little to no support in reality. Do not drive yourself mad trying to study it....let it go and as I have already said, be kind to yourself. Find you tube videos that bring you joy and fulfilment. Watch cats doing what cats do, listen to great music.

 

Christian claims are mostly based on shifting sands. Have they ever seen God, no, has anyone outside a magic book....again no. Religious people are like parrots , they add nothing new, just repeat, repeat again and again what other religious people say, it's all rather sad.

 

Who cares what the shroud is, or what bones of the saints the church owns, it all amounts to the same thing which is next to nothing

 

Chasing reassurance is like the coyote chasing the road runner, you think you are getting some where, but all you are grabbing is a empty air and a "meep meep".

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that Isaiah 52:14, which Christians insist is a prophecy about Jesus, says that his appearance was marred beyond that of any man. That is not at all what is represented on the Shroud of Turin, which has a pretty clear depiction of a face. So, if there was any possibility of the shroud actually containing Jesus' image, then it would prove that prophecy to be false. Thus, even if you take the shroud as evidence, it actually undermines the Bible.

Cool, I never thought of that either! But can't the apologist reply that Jesus' face was reconstituted miraculously when all the energy surged through his dead body to bring it back to life? The energy that caused the image to be left on the shroud?

 

Apologists love to bring in unsupported auxiliary assumptions that can't be falsified.

 

 

Well, there really is no limit to the absurdities to which apologists will resort. They'll say just about anything to try to make things appear to support their preconceived notions. If one has to jump through hoops to try to get things to be what they wished they were, though, then how much credibility does it really hold? Any apologist who would suggest something like that would be quick to reject the very same argument if it was made in favor of some artifact from any other religion.

 

A more reasonable approach from an apologist would be to simply admit that the shroud is a fake. In that case, it would have no bearing on whether or not the Bible is true. On the other hand, trying to hold to the shroud as authentic evidence undermines the aforementioned Biblical prophecy for anyone who approaches the matter honestly and rationally.

[Lilith666]

Several people here have pointed out that rumination isn't a good idea. You will always end up looking for more answers no matter how far you get. You will never feel certain enough that Hell isn't real. I'm a worrier and I'm always looking for answers to various problems I've had - why did this happen, what could I have done better in that situation, it wouldn't have happened if I had done X - and it just takes up mental energy. We don't have the same issue, but I'm saying that obsession with closure won't get you anywhere. You'll end up going in circles.

 

Edit: On reading your OP, it looks like you read/watch all these arguments for Christianity and tie yourself in knots while not reading evidence against it. Starting with the assumption that a crazy claim like this is true makes no sense. Try educating yourself with objective sources about the shroud, the Bible, etc. It's more productive than looking at the same propaganda and then having an anxiety overload.

[rjn]

Several people here have pointed out that rumination isn't a good idea. You will always end up looking for more answers no matter how far you get. You will never feel certain enough that Hell isn't real. I'm a worrier and I'm always looking for answers to various problems I've had - why did this happen, what could I have done better in that situation, it wouldn't have happened if I had done X - and it just takes up mental energy. We don't have the same issue, but I'm saying that obsession with closure won't get you anywhere. You'll end up going in circles.

 

Edit: On reading your OP, it looks like you read/watch all these arguments for Christianity and tie yourself in knots while not reading evidence against it. Starting with the assumption that a crazy claim like this is true makes no sense. Try educating yourself with objective sources about the shroud, the Bible, etc. It's more productive than looking at the same propaganda and then having an anxiety overload.

 

This. Definitely this. All of it.

 

I fucking love you sometimes Lilith (in a totally platonic, I-appreciate-you-as-an internet-acquaintance-on-a-forum kind of way, I'm not a creep ^^), you're great at summing things up and giving words to thoughts I didn't even know I had until you wrote them.