Stranger Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 And how do you know that those others got it right? I trust God's hand in overseeing them in their decisions. Just as Jesus Christ promised in the sending of the Holy Spirit. (Jn. 14:26) Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I trust God's hand in overseeing them in their decisions. Just as Jesus Christ promised in the sending of the Holy Spirit. (Jn. 14:26) Stranger You are now citing the Bible to justify your professed belief that the Bible is scripture. Surely you can see that this is circular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 You are now citing the Bible to justify your professed belief that the Bible is scripture. Surely you can see that this is circular. Yes, it is. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Yes, it is. Stranger So I take it that you're ok with having no basis for your faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 So I take it that you're ok with having no basis for your faith. The basis for my faith is God and Jesus Christ as revealed in His Word, the Bible. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Surely you know, from the other side of your computer screen, how unreasonable it sounds to have faith in something merely because a book tells you to. But it's obvious that you won't allow yourself to admit it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 The basis for my faith is God and Jesus Christ as revealed in His Word, the Bible. Stranger ...and the evidence you have for the basis of your faith comes from the Bible. How quaint. It seems you have nothing of substance to say about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 16, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2017 The basis for my faith is God and Jesus Christ as revealed in His Word, the Bible. Stranger No. The basis of your faith is the bible, which you believe reveals an accurate depiction of god and jesus. Just as the mohammedan's faith is in the koran, which accurately portrays allah. Were it not for the books, neither of you would even know the names of your respective gods; never mind knowing their character or their stance on which bathroom gay-married trans-sexual feminists should use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted June 16, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2017 @Stranger 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Damn it! Still out of likes! I wonder when my 24-hour cycle restarts. It clearly isn't at midnight my time. So here's a like, TRP & LF. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Well, yes, the truths in the Bible don't change. But, the Christian does grow in knowledge of the Bible and God and Christ. Stranger They are not truths. They are ancient myths filled with ignorance, superstition and contradictions. I see God's hand much more active than that. If I had been born a muslim and indoctrinated into the muslim faith, I would still have at some point in time, turned to Jesus Christ and be born again. Indeed, it did. God was providing a place for Israel which meant the Canaanites had to go. And, those times will return in a future day with Jesus Christ during the Millennial reign. Stranger You have no basis for believing that you'd become a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a Muslim. It's quite rare for that to happen. Also, it's a bit ironic that you cited the bloodthirsty attitude in the Quran as indicating that it's not from god, yet you easily dismiss the bloodthirsty attitude in the Bible as a-OK. Do you seriously not see how inconsistent you're being? You only care about latching onto anything you can in order to prop up your preconceived notions. The difference between you and the rest of us here is that we actually care about truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (Is.14:12) I asked for a reference where the Bible says that Lucifer is a name for Satan. Isaiah 14:12 does NOT say that. It does NOT mention Satan. He is NOT mentioned anywhere in that entire passage. Verse 12 is part of a quote specifically directed at the king of Babylon (see verse 4). Thus, your reply is not an answer to my question. I knew you wouldn't be able to come up with one, though, because it doesn't exist. The Bible does not say that Lucifer is a name for Satan. Well, as I said, it is common with the prophets to be speaking to some individual but then move from them to a past or future individual. Not just with Satan but with Christ also. I cited (Ps.22) as an example. No, it's not the "prophets" moving on to talk about someone whom they do not even mention. It's Christians taking the quotes completely out of context in order to apply them to something entirely different from what the authors were saying. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I don't. Because I was not reasoned into being a Christian, and that the Bible is the Word of God, then I cannot be reasoned out. And my faith that the Bible is the Word of God cannot be taken away. Stranger Yes, indeed. Since you confirm that reason did not play a part in you becoming a Christian and reason can play no part in you ceasing to be a Christian, is this not a clear admission from you that your faith is unreasonable? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 As I said, science has nothing but 'theories', concerning the origin of the universe. They don't know. I don't need anyone else to say it. Stranger So what is happening when a theory is used to make a prediction and that prediction is confirmed by evidence? Does this not indicate that the theory is correct in what it says about physical reality? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Yes, indeed. Since you confirm that reason did not play a part in you becoming a Christian and reason can play no part in you ceasing to be a Christian, is this not a clear admission from you that your faith is unreasonable? In addition, I have to wonder why he's even here. What's the point in trying to argue us into the faith when he even acknowledges that his own faith is not based on reason? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 In addition, I have to wonder why he's even here. What's the point in trying to argue us into the faith when he even acknowledges that his own faith is not based on reason? The evidence (ha ha) seems to indicate he is here to boast about his religious faith and get some proselytizing in on the side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I think my statement was that I do not ignore the physical or spiritual worlds. The believer comes into new life by faith, and that faith is evidence. It is just not evidence of a physical nature. This new life begins with the indwelling Holy Spirit. That Spirit is evidence. Not physical, but evidence to the believer. So, my point here is that it is incorrect to say the believer has no evidence for the faith he has. It is real and he knows it. But it is of a Spiritual nature. Evidence for what? Stranger What you describe above Stranger is another of your circular arguments. Your faith seems to consist of self-justifying circular arguments, which not only lock you in but also lock us out. You will not step out of your self-reinforcing system of circular arguments and we will not meet you there. If you have no intention of persuading us, that's fine. But if you do intend to persuade us, then you must step out of your system and join us in the realm of verifiable facts and testable evidence. My answer to your question, 'Evidence for what?' will be given in a later post. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 The evidence (ha ha) seems to indicate he is here to boast about his religious faith and get some proselytizing in on the side. True. However, even though I also didn't realize it as a Christian, the whole notion of proselytizing is ridiculous. If an all-knowing, all-powerful deity wanted to reach me, he'd know exactly what it would take. He wouldn't need to rely on the nonsensical ramblings of mortal, fallible humans who don't even care about evidence. A perfect god wouldn't need them to do his bidding for him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 When you say 'more than we can observe' I assume you still mean physical, and not spiritual. I may not ignore what science says about physical reality, but that doesn't mean I need to agree with their conclusions either. Stranger That's correct. Science concludes (by inference and not by direct observation) that the temperature of the molten rock 50 miles under our feet is over 1000 0 C. Do you accept this conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 The restriction is self-evident. Science is learning. Which means it will change its conclusions with time. I am not obliged to accept what science tells us about the physical world if its conclusions contradict the Bible. Stranger Yes. And referring back to my earlier post, so long as you stay locked into your system of self-referencing and self-justifying circular arguments, you will use them to be... 'not obliged to accept what science tells us about the physical world'. Likewise, so long as we stay locked out of your belief system, we will not be obliged to accept anything that you claim to be absolute truth. Impasse. Can you see any way of breaking this deadlock? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 True. However, even though I also didn't realize it as a Christian, the whole notion of proselytizing is ridiculous. If an all-knowing, all-powerful deity wanted to reach me, he'd know exactly what it would take. He wouldn't need to rely on the nonsensical ramblings of mortal, fallible humans who don't even care about evidence. A perfect god wouldn't need them to do his bidding for him. Yes, if the deities actually existed in reality your points are reasonable inquiries. If they do not exist in reality, the stance of believers like Stranger simply points to an irrational psychological and emotional defense mechanism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 True. However, even though I also didn't realize it as a Christian, the whole notion of proselytizing is ridiculous. If an all-knowing, all-powerful deity wanted to reach me, he'd know exactly what it would take. He wouldn't need to rely on the nonsensical ramblings of mortal, fallible humans who don't even care about evidence. A perfect god wouldn't need them to do his bidding for him. Never mind "perfect" gods -- If ever you encounter someone purporting to speak for Me, feel free to give them a sound thump upside the head, as I prefer to speak for Myself and do not utilize mortal representatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 16, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2017 In addition, I have to wonder why he's even here. What's the point in trying to argue us into the faith when he even acknowledges that his own faith is not based on reason? Furthermore, by his own admission, it is not even his faith; it is, rather, the faith that god gave him. He doesn't believe without seeing; he believes because god made him believe by making him have faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Yes, indeed. Since you confirm that reason did not play a part in you becoming a Christian and reason can play no part in you ceasing to be a Christian, is this not a clear admission from you that your faith is unreasonable? It is unreasonable to you. Not to me or any other believer. We who have that faith see it as reasonable. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Yes. And referring back to my earlier post, so long as you stay locked into your system of self-referencing and self-justifying circular arguments, you will use them to be... 'not obliged to accept what science tells us about the physical world'. Likewise, so long as we stay locked out of your belief system, we will not be obliged to accept anything that you claim to be absolute truth. Impasse. Can you see any way of breaking this deadlock? No. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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