I desire to be desired

[SOIL]

It bothers me that this site does not appear to offer a discussion area entitled something like "Discussing with Christians", because I would prefer to start this thread in such an area.

 

I don't "desire" to argue with you ex-c folks in this particular thread.

 

Having said that though, I suppose some of the people who come to this discussion area might possibly be considered as having "an axe to grind" - since it is is found in a site which is distinguished by the fact that the intended (and encouraged" participants are those who have voluntarily "left the Christian fold" - and it might be assumed that at least one (of several possible purposes) may have been mainly just to provide a place for those nosy annoying Christians to hang out (perhaps as a way to funnel them/us away from other discussion areas (best kept more private) - and also to provide a place where ex's can sharpen their axe's (so to speak) so they can become better able to "give a defense" for the (lack of the same) hope that now dwells within them.

 

At any rate though, since there is no plain old "Civil Discussions with Christians" discussion area - I have just chosen to start this thread here.

 

I am trying to spend more of my creative time on my job, (out of gratitude, and for the sake of justice - since for some very strange reason, they are still sending salary checks my way). So this means it may require - what may seem to be a long time - before I can reply to what I (without doubt)) expect to be some very insightful posts.

 

At this point - I have only 29 minutes before I am supposed to start working, so I will try to distill (the main thoughts) I have for this thread to their base components - for now - and then I will probably need to elaborate (a lot) as time goes by. I rather expect there to be discussion in this thread for many days - because it will most likely be controversial - that is, by the time I have said the many things that are just now beginning to percolate in my mind.

 

I was thinking early this morning, shortly after I awoke, about various short phrases commonly used in the English language.

 

I started thinking about this one: " F*** You! "

 

I found it to be something which, I think (upon deep consideration) may be very revealing about what people desire - and also (perhaps even more importantly) what we don't desire.

 

People enjoy pleasure.

 

Physically speaking, orgasm is one of the most enjoyable pleasures.

 

Orgasm often happens during a sex act.

 

Sex acts are what begin the life experience of a new person (who, if nurtured, will eventually become somewhat independent of her or his biological parents).

 

People enjoy being desired by another person - (a person who likewise desires to experience orgasm with them) - and at this point, I'm wondering - IF or HOW - (perhaps unconsciously?), - the understanding that the experience of orgasm is associated with the way new human beings are introduced into this world - might enter into the reason, for instance, why I desire for another person to desire me"?

 

Sometimes when a person is angry with another person they may say "F*** You!" to that other person. When a person says this two-word phrase, I think the person who says it, expects the person to whom they say it, to understand they have had something "bad" wished upon them.

 

The reason the word "'F***", (the "bad", four letter word, that is) is considered "bad", I think, is probably because it implies the act (remember, we are talking about the act where the most intense physical pleasure is experienced) is happening in an overall circumstance, which is NOT representative of a manner that can be characterized as providing something which BOTH of the participants are DESIRING. So, the concept of DESIRE seems to be very important in relation to whether the act (the one which is involved in starting a new person, and may physically be the same type of act which most people desire) actually turns out to be considered "good" or "bad".

 

I think a lot of what goes into considering the idea of "F***" to be so "bad" - is because people assume that the desire of one of the participants is not motivated by an interest in the overall welfare of the other participant.

 

I want to be desired by someone else, but I only want that "someone else" to be the specific one whom I desire, and I only want her to desire me in the specific way I desire her to desire me!

 

By the way, I also don't want that specific "someone else" to desire anybody else (in the same way I desire her to desire me)!

 

(There is a whole lot more I eventually want to say about this subject - but I am out of time and I need to spell check this thing and post it before my self allotted time expires).

 

<edited in: shoot!, my time already expired (35 minutes ago, now), and I am still trying to edit this, in a (vain?) effort to try to get it to actually say something, at least close, to what I desire to express!>

 

 

-Dennis

[Purple Rhino]

So do you want thoughts on the "fuck you" topic? or Thoughts on why some Ex's (axe or no axe) may question the motives of a Christian who frequents an Ex site?

 

PR

[SOIL]

So do you want thoughts on the "fuck you" topic? or Thoughts on why some Ex's (axe or no axe) may question the motives of a Christian who frequents an Ex site?

 

PR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PR,

 

YES

 

(I'm not sure if a single thread is the best way to ask you folks - for both types of comments though - but, whatever , I suppose I can mentally categorize things OK.)

 

Or, if a moderator type person wants to tell me (the folks who are entrusted with categorizing things here) - how they prefer things to be done- I suppose any way is OK with me (as long as people here don't mind "discussing" these things).

 

(Basically, I desire to meet the desire of the folks who are in authority at this site).

 

-Dennis

 

(P.S. - I haven't yet got to expressing the other big point I want to make in this thread :

 

I desire to fulfill the desires of the one who desires to fulfill my desires! )

 

<edited in: -- sorry, but I probably will not be back here until this evening - I really must go now>

[Reach]

It seems to me, Dennis, that you could start a discussion in Rants. Or we can move this thread to Rants.

 

I suggest separate threads but that's up to you.

 

Most people here will be fairly nonconfrontational if you make it plain, upfront, that you desire mutually respectful discussion, not debate.

 

Understand that there will always be some members who see Christian participation here as evangelistically motivated, whether overt or covert, no matter how much the Christian protests.

 

Reach

[white_raven23]

Hey SOIL,

 

Much of my reply is paraphrasing from "The Guide to Getting It On!" by The Goofy Foot Press.

 

They touched on this topic, and it really made me think. I can only hope to do justice to what they wrote. If you don't think so, feel free to pick up the guide and check it out.

 

One of the downfalls of the insults we use could well end up negatively affecting our deep feelings about physical intimacy with others.

 

Especially women.

 

I won't sport with your sensitivities by rattling out a bunch of examples, but think of the insults we consider most crude or most insulting.

 

Okay, I will use one, just so no one gets lost.

 

"F*** You!"

 

Now you think of other examples.

 

All of these have the underlying message "You take the female position for sex!" and strongly implies that this is a bad thing.

 

Now how is a young female child who hurled such insults as "Suck my dick" in ignorance towards playmates in the schoolyard going to feel about actually doing such an activity when she's older?

 

The insults we use still indicate a negativity towards women, and a negativity towards our most vulnerable and intimate acts.

 

I'm sure you can think of many other examples.

[Eponymic]

I do believe that you could attribute a good portion of why words regarding bodily functions & sexual acts top the list of 'societal profanity.' Especially considering how our society has repressed sexuality and any discussion about it.

 

I also believe though that words such as fuck, pussy, dick & so on aren't dirty or "bad." What's bad is when they are used in a negative context. It's the attitude that makes things bad, not the word.

 

I can go into more detail for reasoning if you wish.

[doomguarder]

Origins of the word Fuck Scroll down

 

So fuck means sex, but we all knew that.

 

This is a very old word that has been in use for centuries. Because of the negative aspects of the word, it has been basically under the rug for most of that time.

 

I will take a bit of a different bent on your "desire" idea.

 

Humans are the only (added: mammalian) species on earth without a penal bone. In other species, the penal bone is triggered by various pheromones produced by the female when they are ready to conceive. Not based on attraction, just on biology. For copulation to occur in humans the male of the species must be brought to the state of arousal thought desire, a mental state. So I would agree, desire has a great deal to do with the act of copulation. Sex is much more pleasurable for the female she is brought to a state of arousal as well.

 

There are positive usages of the word. It might be a bit descriptive, so I will leave that to you to understand.

 

As I see it, the negative aspects of the word stem from forced sex, i.e. rape. This is horrific thing for the person violated. Rape has been used as a weapon as long as history records. Women were considered part of the gains from battle. Which is apparent in the old “Rape & Pillage” after a victory. This act breaks people mentally and physically. Rape is more commonly something done by a male to a female, but it can happen male to male, and female to male (with an object).

 

Current usage of the word in phrases like “Fuck you”, “Fuck off”, and “Fuck!” seem to have little to do with it’s meaning (sex), than to do with the commonly understood offensiveness of the word itself when added to a phrase. Someone tells me to “Fuck you” I do not take it to mean a threat of rape or a desire to have sex. It says to me, that the person is angry with me and want to express that anger. “Fuck off” means go away. “Fuck!” is an expression of annoyance.

 

As for this being a anti-female thing… I don’t know. Personally I have never taken it that way.

[Purple Rhino]

...

Current usage of the word in phrases like “Fuck you”, “Fuck off”, and “Fuck!”  seem to have little to do with it’s meaning (sex), than to do with the commonly understood offensiveness of the word itself when added to a phrase. Someone tells me to “Fuck you” I do not take it to mean a threat of rape or a desire to have sex. It says to me, that the person is angry with me and want to express that anger.  “Fuck off” means go away. “Fuck!” is an expression of annoyance.

 

As for this being a anti-female thing… I don’t know. Personally I have never taken it that way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

doomguarder,

expressed my thoughts on Fuck better than I could.

 

I will add that even though commonly used there still is some amount of 'shock' value in many instances. And is understood as a final or closing statement.

 

I personally never saw it having anything to do with the act of sex. I quite often say 'Fuuuuuck Me!' :angry: when I do something stupid or frustrating. I can honestly say that I DO NOT offer it as an invitation and sex is the last thing on my mind.

 

PR

[SmallStone]

The reason the word "'F***", (the "bad", four letter word, that is) is considered "bad", I think, is probably because it implies the act (remember, we are talking about the act where the most intense physical pleasure is experienced) is happening in an overall circumstance, which is NOT representative of a manner that can be characterized as providing something which BOTH of the participants are DESIRING.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two thoughts:

 

1. Sometimes it is nice to make love. Sometimes it is nice to fuck. Sometimes it is nice to be fucked.

 

2. Saying "fuck you" to someone you are angry with has as much to do with sex as an atheist saying "god damn it" has to do with god.

[white_raven23]

Still....

 

The gender thing aside....

 

 

Why in our culture does being on the receiving end of sexual activity represent a major insult?

 

Why are our major insults sexual in nature in the first place?

 

Possibly because our genitals have been demonized by the major religions of the world?

 

Words are just words. But religion helps shape how society interprets and views activities in association with those words.

 

It's 2005 and sex and slander are still in bed together.

[Saviourmachine]

Sometimes when a person is angry with another person they may say "F*** You!" to that other person. When a person says this two-word phrase, I think the person who says it, expects the person to whom they say it,  to understand they have had something "bad" wished upon them.

I'm Dutch, and was and am still sometimes suprised by English curses. To say 'fuck you' in Dutch would be quite funny. It's more like "Ga je moeder neuken" (motherfucker), "Eikel!", "Lul!", "Klootzak!" (genitals), "Idioot!" (idiot), "Teringlijder!" (diseases), or "Etter!" (nasty pus). As a boy (15 years old) it was a revelation for me that I couldn't say 'shit' in Canada. Ha ha. I didn't understand what was controversial or funny about the word 'poop' or 'shit' (in Holland that's funny around your 5th).

[Amethyst]

I personally avoid that insult -- there are much more creative ways to insult someone than that. IMHO, if someone has to resort to the "f" word, they're not thinking very creatively.

[Skankboy]

In my family at least, FUCK, is basically punctuation. It has essentially been reduced to a term that adds emphasis to a statement.

 

"I don't care" vs "I don't give a FUCK", etc.

 

Anyways, the only problem is it tends to lessen the effect of the word when you REALLY need one to express how serious you are...

 

As for the "feminine" aspect, I personally have never seen it that way. Have always assumed it referred more to the "forced" aspect then any type of gender role...

 

IMHO

[Cerise]

Kind of strange really. All the really common North American insults seem to focus on sexual acts or sexual connotations. All the really common French or Spanish insults I've heard tend to focus on religion or religious connotations.

 

Perhaps we take what our society uses as commodity and then build a language of insult on top of it. Catholicism, sex, whatever...

[SOIL]

To me, the thing about the "F*** You" phrase that is so interesting, is how the person who hurls it at some other (target) person, appears to be wishing a third person will desire the target person for the wrong reason.

 

So I think people understand that the reason behind why a person is desired, is very important to us. We do want to be desired (in one sense), but yet, we don't want to be desired in another sense. We want to provide pleasure for another person - but we want to pick which person, and the person who we do (voluntarily) pick - we want to value the fact that we have chosen them as the one we want desiring us.

 

I think one thing that makes good marriages go bad is when one partner senses the other partner is no longer desiring them in an honoring way.

 

People seem to sense that there is great importance associated - not only with desire - but how desire and honor are interwoven.

 

Some of you may have perhaps been wondering if I would eventually get around to using any of these musings to express some of my ideas about the Christian concept of God, given that subject often seems to be what people are talking about in this particular discussion/debate area.

 

The old timers may remember how many of my very first posts were about the subject of sexuality, and how the Bible has used the relationship between a bride and a bridegroom as an earthly picture representing heavenly relationship between the church and Jesus (respectively).

 

Parenthetically - I remember, just before this new version of forums began - Zach started a thread about that very subject (mentioning in his view - of mostly Old Testament passages - at least I think that was his main focus anyway - to communicate how he, Zach, felt about the role which God and Jesus have played in the supposed pattern relationship - Zach felt God has set a poor example of how an earthly man should relate to his wife). I was actually kind of sad that we didn't continue posting in that thread - (I think it would be nice if we could migrate a thread (like that one for instance) from the Old Forum into this New Forum - in such a way as to allow all the same capabilities when continuing it ( just as if the thread was originally begun here).

 

The idea of DESIRE, is something which I think has many interesting connotations - unfortunately my brain is rather fried just now - so I will probably write more posts in the future in continuing attempts to communicate as best I am able, just where I was desiring to go early this morning when I started this thread.

 

(At this point I'm thinking this thread really hasn't been going where I was hoping it might - but that's OK - I was wanting to see how people would respond - and that is what I am seeing - I haven't really made myself clear yet.)

 

Here is something I find interesting: John Piper, (one of the men who I respect because I appreciate his understanding about what the Bible teaches), feels strongly that God tells us that we need to desire Him, because if we set anything or anyone else in the position of who (or what) we most desire, we will eventually end up disappointed.

 

The words of one of the early Rolling Stones songs, comes to my mind just now: "I can't get no satisfaction". I think the Stones were basically confining their desires to this physical world (or did someone else - like Bob Dylan maybe - write that song?).

 

I think we can learn a lot about someone if we come to understand what they desire most.

 

I suspect a wife is honored most, when she sees her husband desires her more than any other woman, and especially, if he is willing to let the whole world know he desires her most.

 

According to John Piper (and I think I agree with him here) God is most honored when people desire Him above all.

 

I think the Bible teaches God is passionate about His own glory (honor), and our desires are only completely fulfilled when our greatest desire is to know and experience Him through a two-way relationship characterized by each of us desiring to fulfill our partner's desires.

 

I think it is interesting that perhaps one of the things people like most about being in love is the desire we feel for our lover. It can be even more pleasurable to meet the desires of our lover - than to have our own desires met ... actually we can come to the point where our own desire is simply to meet the desire of our lover. I think maybe that is basically what the word LOVE means, in it's purest form.

 

I not sure if most people think much about trying to consciously control what we allow ourselves to desire - maybe some of us may actually think that would be impossible, perhaps we are, in a way, sort of doomed to desire whatever we just "happen" to desire.

 

One thing I have always had trouble understanding is the concept of the "B" grade horror movie - for instance, the kind where the producers mix violence with sexual desire in order to produce an adrenaline surge in the viewers (e.g., consider the classic shower scene where a naked woman is attacked by a man with a knife). Actually, I have never been able to even watch such a film, but I think that sort of scene must be fairly common, since I have seen it in previews of coming attractions. I have wondered why anyone would feed a desire to go view that type of a film - it just seems strange to me that so many people actually pay money to see that type 'pretending'. Why would any sane human desire to pretend something like would happen in the first place - and then why would anyone pay to go watch such a scenario after the enactment was filmed???

 

I'm not sure why I am ranting on here - but it just seems like the things people allow themselves to desire to watch, can get really strange .... maybe I can see why a God might want us people to put a filter on what we desire. How would this fit in with the concept that God created us to have free will though???

 

Can we use our free will to decide what we allow ourselves to be free to will???

 

C.S. Lewis makes a big deal about how sad it is when we "settle" for an earthly shadow which should provide a clue so we can look for the heavenly substance which is more to be desired than the shadow it casts. (Actually he says it, a lot better than I tried, and John Piper quotes him about that in the Desiring God book).

 

I'm sorry that I am not connecting my thoughts well at this point.

 

I am trying to write them down as I go - and maybe every now and then I can put out a summary post to link my scattered thoughts together.

 

I guess I am getting back to my old habit of :

 

.... just thinking out loud ....

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Kind of strange really.  All the really common North American insults seem to focus on sexual acts or sexual connotations.  All the really common French or Spanish insults I've heard tend to focus on religion or religious connotations.

 

Perhaps we take what our society uses as commodity and then build a language of insult on top of it.  Catholicism, sex, whatever... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's something I notice,

 

Some folks think people come into the world because God has made that possible (Religion), others think (more short sightedly, IMO) people are here because of human intercourse (Sex).

 

Could it be, that something common regarding how societies pick what we will base insults upon (in addition to commodities) is perceived reasons as to why people are here on earth (in the first place)?

 

(consider for example, how sometimes, when people are angry, they call each other "bastards").

 

-Dennis

[Fweethawt]

I want to be desired by someone else, but I only want that "someone else" to be the specific one whom I desire, and I only want her to desire me in the specific way I desire her to desire me!

 

By the way, I also don't want that specific "someone else" to desire anybody else (in the same way I desire her to desire me)!

 

I dont' see any problem with this.

 

Just don't tell your wife about it.

[Fweethawt]

Here is something I find interesting:  John Piper, (one of the men who I respect because I appreciate his understanding about what the Bible teaches), feels strongly that God tells us that we need to desire Him, because if we set anything or anyone else in the position of who (or what) we most desire, we will eventually end up disappointed.

 

Poor-poor John Piper...

 

He obviously never experienced people who thought this exact way only to realize that not only were they disappointed, they were devastated once they found that the thing in which they desired most didn't even exist.

 

This is one of the reasons there is ExChristian.net for cryin' out loud. Once people realize their imaginary friend isn't there, they usually need people -- REAL people -- to fall back on.

[SOIL]

I dont' see any problem with this.

 

Just don't tell your wife about it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fweetthawt,

 

Fortunately, I'm one of the lucky ones - she is my wife!

 

(Or, rather than just being lucky, could it have anything to do with how I exercise my free will?)

 

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Here's something I notice,

 

Some folks think people come into the world because God has made that possible (Religion), others think (more short sightedly, IMO) people are here because of  human intercourse (Sex).

 

Could it be, that something common regarding how societies pick what we will base insults upon (in addition to commodities) is perceived reasons as to why people are here on earth (in the first place)?

 

(consider for example, how sometimes, when people are angry, they call each other "bastards").

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really. I think if we came to a society that focused primarily on vegetarianism, then insults would probably be based on food consumption. Maybe "carrion-eater" would become the most popular insult.

 

Does it really matter why people are here? Isn't the important thing that we are here? Maybe it's a giant cosmic accident...if you found that out, would that mean you'd instantly have no desire to live? If so, then that's kind of sad.

[Lokmer]

All of these have the underlying message "You take the female position for sex!" and strongly implies that this is a bad thing.

 

Now how is a young female child who hurled such insults as "Suck my dick" in ignorance towards playmates in the schoolyard going to feel about actually doing such an activity when she's older?

 

The insults we use still indicate a negativity towards women, and a negativity towards our most vulnerable and intimate acts.

 

"And while I'm at it, how did 'cocksucker' come to be an insult? It's supposed to be a compliment! It's not a bad man - - it's a GOOD woman!" --George Carlin, circ 1972

 

-Lokmer

[SOIL]

Fweetthawt,

 

Fortunately, I'm one of the lucky ones - she is my wife! 

 

(Or, rather than just being lucky, could it have anything to do with how I exercise my free will?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, in our case - I think both of us have tried our best to exercise each of our free wills in such a manner as to limit the freedom we indulge in. I suspect in most good marriages - both partners - decide to put a filter on their desires, so each wukk be as content as possible within the bounds of what makes their partner content.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Obviously, I was in a hurry when I made that previous post - either that, or the word "wukk" is a coded special message - which is sooo special - (how special is it, Dennis?) - it is sooo special, even I don't know what it means!

(Woooo! - a hush comes over the gallery).

 

OK - so much for the unusual crazy talk, now let's get back to the usual crazy talk, shall we?

 

....

 

I'm not really sure exactly where I want to go with all this "desire" talk (as you may have surmised by now) - however, a minor thing like that has never stopped me before.

 

Never give up! (so says Winston Churchill - and I like his spunk.)

 

Again - like in the title I gave this thread - some of us humans (like myself) - desire to be desired.

 

It is kind of sad that I started this thing out with all of the sexual references, when actually the desire to be desired is much deeper than just that type of desire.

 

One of the reasons Christianity is so popular (I think anyway), is because we learn God desires human fellowship so much that he has gone to the trouble to personally identify with humans by becoming one himself. He didn't choose only to identify with the big shot category of humans (rich and powerful and snobby), but rather He chose to be born in a stable, and to eventually become hated (rather than desired by local important people) - and finally even to suffer physically and spiritually (as anyone who wants to identify with humans must do). The New Testament says God did this.

 

Sometimes I am can really feel bummed out - especially if and when - it appears to me like nobody desires me at all. For instance, when I am so busy looking out for myself that not even my best friends stick with me (like when Jesus' disciples all disappeared). In times like these - if I believe what the Bible says concerning what God has done - and who God has done it for - I can still feel good about myself as I consider how the most important being in the Universe (the very one who made it), desires to be my friend so much that he became a human and suffered in similar ways like I have - and even paid the just penalty for the sins I commit - so we could be friends.

 

So, it is good to know God desires me! (even if nobody else does)

 

When ex-christians succeed in convincing an existing Christian to believe as they (now) do - they are in effect taking this consolation away from their new ex-christian "friend?".

 

That can be a hard thing to deal with. To change from believing you are desired by the most important being in the Universe - to believing that is not the case after all. Man, now that can be a bummer.

 

The change in status can be like a kick in the teeth to one's self-image.

 

(A fella could really get depressed when going through that kind of shock).

 

-Dennis

[Fweethawt]

Fweetthawt,

 

Fortunately, I'm one of the lucky ones - she is my wife! 

 

(Or, rather than just being lucky, could it have anything to do with how I exercise my free will?)

-Dennis

 

Was it free will, or was it taking advantage of an opportunity before it went away?

[Fweethawt]

Actually, in our case - I think both of us have tried our best to exercise each of our free wills in such a manner as to limit the freedom we indulge in. I suspect in most good marriages - both partners - decide to put a filter on their desires, so each wukk be as content as possible within the bounds of what makes their partner content.

 

-Dennis

 

I see...

 

The two of you have learned to turn off your instincts in order to keep a happy home. That's just one of the factors involved in what a marriage is that not too many people ever think about.

 

I understand.