Hierophant vs PittsburghJoe

[TABA]

Let the new debate begin!

Only Hierophant and PittsburghJoe should post here.  Others will be moved to the Peanut Gallery. 

[Hierophant]

Joe - In the other thread I got a bit of background of how you came to your current conclusions. As I said there, I appreciate you explaining your position more because it gave me a better ability to think about the topics as you do. Fundamentally speaking, I have some serious points of contention with your definition of terms and the methods you use to reach your conclusions.

 

I want to start off with the claim that you believe the Holy Spirit is guiding you to some kind of truth. There are a few problems with this:

 

We have insufficient data to support that the Holy Spirit even exists. Where you take it as an assumption of truth, I will not. I spent the better part of 15 years in Christianity listening to pastors, evangelicals, family members, and a whole World Wide Web of every jagaloon with a Bible and a keyboard stating they know the truth because the Holy Spirit was guiding them on Bible interpretation or transcendental truths. Every other brand of Christianity was false, led astray, and were hell bound, let alone every other person who did not even claim to be a Christian. Everyone has a different interpretation of the Bible and I have heard the appeal to the Holy Spirit or God providing inside knowledge more often than not. It is normally a default position. Well, we have a problem here. While all these various people claimed the Holy Spirit was teaching them, they kept coming to different conclusions than other people who were claiming the same thing. They cannot all be right, but they surely can all be wrong; therefore, the method of relying on the Holy Spirit is an invalid method in of itself, and this is demonstrably true based on past experiences and studies.

 

This means that at a fundamental level, I disagree with your methodology from the get go. I will not rely on that method because I tried employing it in times past. I ran into issues where I met other people, just as devout, just as interested in the truth that I was, but could not agree on what the Holy Spirit was telling us. Since this method leads to flaws in conclusions, it is not a sound method on its own. We would have to use other tests and methods of verification to test the veracity of what someone thought the Holy Spirit was telling them.

[Hierophant]

RESPONSE TO JOE'S REMONSTRANCE IN THE COLOSSEUM

 

Then that is a wrap, the debate is over and I am the clear winner. Your claims are on the same level as a claim from any other religion, or any non-falsifiable claim levied by someone.  You do not offer sufficient evidence nor reason to think that your claim is any more special than any other.

 

Please give the following a quick read:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

 

It addresses the problem at hand. If I was to make a claim that a teapot is in orbit between Earth and Mars, where would the responsibility of evidence lay? With me, making the claim, or with you, to disprove the claim? I am of the mind that the one making the claim is then responsible to substantiate the claim, not on the skeptic to disprove the claim.

 

As another example, suppose you were speaking with a Hindu fundamentalist. If you do not know, there are those within the Hindu religion who take a literal reading of their scriptures and believe their holy books are congruent with reality. If a Hindu fundamentalist made claims to the veracity of their beliefs, do you think the onus would be on you to disprove their claims? More to the point, religious claims, more often that not, are not falsifiable, meaning, there is no way to disprove them.

 

I also will not concede to your "test" hypothesis. It is an ad hoc excuse to try and explain away the fact that the present evidence does Christianity no favors. As I mentioned before, according to the Bible, Adam, Eve, Moses, Abraham, Samson, all the major prophets, the minor ones, and the whole stinking nation of Israel had direct evidence of YHWH.

[pittsburghjoe]

I get it, you want to stand behind your reasons that you don't believe. The problem being, if you don't, at least, consider what I'm pointing out ..you end up in a bit of a pickle after Judgement Day.

[Hierophant]

I never rule anything entirely out, that is the intellectually honest thing to do, but if I was to entertain every single claim, especially religious ones, then there would be no end to all of the zany and wacky things I could end up believing. By merely accepting a claim at face value, I would end up believing many false things. I did that, for 15 years and it got me nowhere. I will not do it again. I already know it is a folly.

[pittsburghjoe]

Why do you think decoherence causes wave collapse? Why do you think we can not directly detect Dark Matter?

[pittsburghjoe]

Ask yourself, does it matter that The Holy Spirit is working through me? You seem to take it as a problem, as something not to listen to. Whenever you search for ways NOT to believe, you are not listening to The Holy Spirit. I've been down that road. If you ask the internet for ways not to believe, they will gladly give you reasons. Misery loves company.

Do you think a loving God would want us to be in a place like this?

[pittsburghjoe]

It is good that you wanted to believe, but you ditched it when you didn't get a clear sign. You're net getting the situation we are in. We are literally in Satan's perception.

[pittsburghjoe]

What matters is what you believe at death. You had distress for good reason.

[Hierophant]

Pump the brakes, you are on a Gish Gallop here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

[pittsburghjoe]

You feel overwhelmed? The last two responses were to someone that deleted their posts. 

[TABA]

1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said:

The last two responses were to someone that deleted their posts. 

 

The posts were put here by mistake and have been moved to the Peanut Gallery, not deleted.

[Hierophant]

Joe, I want you to take a good, long look at this list:

 

• Dositheos the Samaritan (mid 1st century), was one of the supposed founders of Mandaeanism. After the time of Jesus, he wished to persuade the Samaritans that he himself was the Messiah who was prophesied by Moses.^[14] Dositheus pretended to be the Christ (Messiah), applying Deuteronomy 18:15 to himself, and he compares him with Theudas and Judas the Galilean.^[14][15]
• Ann Lee (1736–1784), a central figure to the Shakers,^[16] who thought she "embodied all the perfections of God" in female form and considered herself to be Christ’s female counterpart in 1772.^[17]
• John Nichols Thom (1799–1838), who had achieved fame and followers as Sir William Courtenay and adopted the claim of Messiah after a period in a mental institute.^[18]
• Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri, Baháʼu'lláh (1817–1892), born Shiite, adopting Bábism in 1844 (see "Bab" in Muslim messiah claimants section below). In 1863, he claimed to be the promised one of all religions, and founded the Baháʼí Faith.^[19]
• Abd-ru-shin (18 April 1875 – 6 December 1941), founder of the Grail Movement.^[20]
• Lou de Palingboer (Louwrens Voorthuijzen)^[20] (1898-1968), a Dutch charismatic leader who claimed to be God as well as the Messiah from 1950 until his death in 1968.
• Father Divine (George Baker) (c. 1880 –1965), an African American spiritual leader from about 1907 until his death who claimed to be God.
• André Matsoua (1899–1942), Congolese founder of Amicale, proponents of which subsequently adopted him as Messiah in the late 1920s.
• Samael Aun Weor (1917–1977), born Víctor Manuel Gómez Rodríguez, Colombian citizen and later Mexican, was an author, lecturer and founder of the 'Universal Christian Gnostic Movement', according to him, 'the most powerful movement ever founded'. By 1972, he referenced that his death and resurrection would be occurring before 1978.^[21]
• Ahn Sahng-hong (1918–1985), founder of the World Mission Society Church of God and worshiped by the members as the messiah.^[22]
• Sun Myung Moon (1920–2012), founder and leader of the Unification Church established in Seoul, South Korea, who considered himself the Second Coming of Christ, but not Jesus himself.^[23] Although it is generally believed by Unification Church members ("Moonies") that he was the Messiah and the Second Coming of Christ and was anointed to fulfill Jesus' unfinished mission.^[23]
• Yahweh ben Yahweh (1935–2007), born as Hulon Mitchell, Jr., a black nationalist and separatist who created the Nation of Yahweh and allegedly orchestrated the murder of dozens of people.
• Laszlo Toth (1940–2012) claimed he was Jesus Christ as he battered Michelangelo's Pieta with a geologist hammer.
• Wayne Bent (born 1941), also known as Michael Travesser of the Lord Our Righteousness Church, also known as the "Strong City Cult", convicted December 15, 2008 of one count of criminal sexual contact of a minor and two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor in 2008.^[24]
• Iesu Matayoshi (1944-2018), in 1997 he established the World Economic Community Party based on his conviction that he was God and the Christ.
• Jung Myung Seok (born 1945), a South Korean who was a member of the Unification Church in the 1970s, before breaking off to found the dissenting group^[25] now known as Providence Church in 1980.^[26][27] He also considers himself the Second Coming of Christ, but not Jesus himself in 1980.^[28] He believes he has come to finish the incomplete message and mission of Jesus Christ, asserting that he is the Messiah and has the responsibility to save all mankind.^[29] He claims that the Christian doctrine of resurrection is false but that people can be saved through him.^[30]
• Claude Vorilhon now known as Raël "messenger of the Elohim" (born 1946), a French professional test driver and former car journalist became founder and leader of UFO religion the Raël Movement in 1972, which teaches that life on Earth was scientifically created by a species of extraterrestrials, which they call Elohim. He claimed he met an extraterrestrial humanoid in 1973 and became the Messiah.^[31] Then devoted himself to the task he said was given by his "biological father", an extraterrestrial named Yahweh.^[32]
• José Luis de Jesús (1946–2013), founder and leader of Creciendo en Gracia sect (Growing In Grace International Ministry, Inc.), based in Miami, Florida. He claimed to be both Jesus Christ returned and the Antichrist, and exhibited a "666" tattoo on his forearm. He has referred to himself as Jesucristo Hombre, which translates to "Jesus Christ made Man".
• Inri Cristo (born 1948) of Indaial, Brazil, a claimant to be the second Jesus.^[33]
• Apollo Quiboloy (born 1950), founder and leader of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ religious group, who claims that Jesus Christ is the "Almighty Father," that Quiboloy is "His Appointed Son," and that salvation is now completed. Proclaims himself as the "Appointed Son of the God" not direct to the point as the "Begotten Son of the God" in 1985.^[34]
• Brian David Mitchell was born on October 18, 1953 in Salt Lake City, Utah, he believed himself the fore-ordained angel born on earth to be the Davidic "servant" prepared by God as a type of Messiah who would restore the divinely led kingdom of Israel to the world in preparation for Christ's second coming. (Mitchell's belief in such an end-times figure – also known among many fundamentalist Latter Day Saints as "the One Mighty and Strong" – appeared to be based in part on a reading of the biblical book of Isaiah by the independent LDS Hebraist, Avraham Gileadi, with whom Mitchell became familiar as a result of his previous participation in Stirling Allan's American Study Group.)^[35][36]
• David Koresh (Vernon Wayne Howell) (1959–1993), leader of the Branch Davidians, renaming himself in honor of King David and Cyrus the Great. He and his followers were killed after a botched ATF raid and siege which ended with their compound catching fire when the FBI pumped CS gas into the building.
• Maria Devi Christos (born 1960), leader of the Great White Brotherhood popular in the former Soviet Union.
• Sergey Torop (born 1961), who started to call himself "Vissarion", founder of the Church of the Last Testament and the spiritual community Ecopolis Tiberkul in Southern Siberia.
• Alan John Miller (born 1962), founder of Divine Truth, a new religious movement based in Australia. Alan John Miller, also known as A.J., who claims to be Jesus of Nazareth through reincarnation. Miller was formerly an elder in the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Do you know who all these people are? They all proclaimed to have "special knowledge" from God, and that they spoke the truth of God. When you simply accept claims without supporting evidence, you could easily fall into line with one of the aforementioned.

 

You know, Jim Jones thought he had special knowledge, and then 918 men, women, and children drank poison and died because of it. Believing in a claim without evidence can destroy lives, homes, and any sense of goodness one could gain from this life. It is a dangerous and reckless epistemology.

[Hierophant]

4 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

You feel overwhelmed? The last two responses were to someone that deleted their posts. 

 

You were just throwing claims out there, I am not overwhelmed, but thank you taking my mental health into consideration.

[pittsburghjoe]

1 minute ago, Hierophant said:

Joe, I want you to take a good, long look at this list:

 

• Dositheos the Samaritan (mid 1st century), was one of the supposed founders of Mandaeanism. After the time of Jesus, he wished to persuade the Samaritans that he himself was the Messiah who was prophesied by Moses.^[14] Dositheus pretended to be the Christ (Messiah), applying Deuteronomy 18:15 to himself, and he compares him with Theudas and Judas the Galilean.^[14][15]
• Ann Lee (1736–1784), a central figure to the Shakers,^[16] who thought she "embodied all the perfections of God" in female form and considered herself to be Christ’s female counterpart in 1772.^[17]
• John Nichols Thom (1799–1838), who had achieved fame and followers as Sir William Courtenay and adopted the claim of Messiah after a period in a mental institute.^[18]
• Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri, Baháʼu'lláh (1817–1892), born Shiite, adopting Bábism in 1844 (see "Bab" in Muslim messiah claimants section below). In 1863, he claimed to be the promised one of all religions, and founded the Baháʼí Faith.^[19]
• Abd-ru-shin (18 April 1875 – 6 December 1941), founder of the Grail Movement.^[20]
• Lou de Palingboer (Louwrens Voorthuijzen)^[20] (1898-1968), a Dutch charismatic leader who claimed to be God as well as the Messiah from 1950 until his death in 1968.
• Father Divine (George Baker) (c. 1880 –1965), an African American spiritual leader from about 1907 until his death who claimed to be God.
• André Matsoua (1899–1942), Congolese founder of Amicale, proponents of which subsequently adopted him as Messiah in the late 1920s.
• Samael Aun Weor (1917–1977), born Víctor Manuel Gómez Rodríguez, Colombian citizen and later Mexican, was an author, lecturer and founder of the 'Universal Christian Gnostic Movement', according to him, 'the most powerful movement ever founded'. By 1972, he referenced that his death and resurrection would be occurring before 1978.^[21]
• Ahn Sahng-hong (1918–1985), founder of the World Mission Society Church of God and worshiped by the members as the messiah.^[22]
• Sun Myung Moon (1920–2012), founder and leader of the Unification Church established in Seoul, South Korea, who considered himself the Second Coming of Christ, but not Jesus himself.^[23] Although it is generally believed by Unification Church members ("Moonies") that he was the Messiah and the Second Coming of Christ and was anointed to fulfill Jesus' unfinished mission.^[23]
• Yahweh ben Yahweh (1935–2007), born as Hulon Mitchell, Jr., a black nationalist and separatist who created the Nation of Yahweh and allegedly orchestrated the murder of dozens of people.
• Laszlo Toth (1940–2012) claimed he was Jesus Christ as he battered Michelangelo's Pieta with a geologist hammer.
• Wayne Bent (born 1941), also known as Michael Travesser of the Lord Our Righteousness Church, also known as the "Strong City Cult", convicted December 15, 2008 of one count of criminal sexual contact of a minor and two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor in 2008.^[24]
• Iesu Matayoshi (1944-2018), in 1997 he established the World Economic Community Party based on his conviction that he was God and the Christ.
• Jung Myung Seok (born 1945), a South Korean who was a member of the Unification Church in the 1970s, before breaking off to found the dissenting group^[25] now known as Providence Church in 1980.^[26][27] He also considers himself the Second Coming of Christ, but not Jesus himself in 1980.^[28] He believes he has come to finish the incomplete message and mission of Jesus Christ, asserting that he is the Messiah and has the responsibility to save all mankind.^[29] He claims that the Christian doctrine of resurrection is false but that people can be saved through him.^[30]
• Claude Vorilhon now known as Raël "messenger of the Elohim" (born 1946), a French professional test driver and former car journalist became founder and leader of UFO religion the Raël Movement in 1972, which teaches that life on Earth was scientifically created by a species of extraterrestrials, which they call Elohim. He claimed he met an extraterrestrial humanoid in 1973 and became the Messiah.^[31] Then devoted himself to the task he said was given by his "biological father", an extraterrestrial named Yahweh.^[32]
• José Luis de Jesús (1946–2013), founder and leader of Creciendo en Gracia sect (Growing In Grace International Ministry, Inc.), based in Miami, Florida. He claimed to be both Jesus Christ returned and the Antichrist, and exhibited a "666" tattoo on his forearm. He has referred to himself as Jesucristo Hombre, which translates to "Jesus Christ made Man".
• Inri Cristo (born 1948) of Indaial, Brazil, a claimant to be the second Jesus.^[33]
• Apollo Quiboloy (born 1950), founder and leader of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ religious group, who claims that Jesus Christ is the "Almighty Father," that Quiboloy is "His Appointed Son," and that salvation is now completed. Proclaims himself as the "Appointed Son of the God" not direct to the point as the "Begotten Son of the God" in 1985.^[34]
• Brian David Mitchell was born on October 18, 1953 in Salt Lake City, Utah, he believed himself the fore-ordained angel born on earth to be the Davidic "servant" prepared by God as a type of Messiah who would restore the divinely led kingdom of Israel to the world in preparation for Christ's second coming. (Mitchell's belief in such an end-times figure – also known among many fundamentalist Latter Day Saints as "the One Mighty and Strong" – appeared to be based in part on a reading of the biblical book of Isaiah by the independent LDS Hebraist, Avraham Gileadi, with whom Mitchell became familiar as a result of his previous participation in Stirling Allan's American Study Group.)^[35][36]
• David Koresh (Vernon Wayne Howell) (1959–1993), leader of the Branch Davidians, renaming himself in honor of King David and Cyrus the Great. He and his followers were killed after a botched ATF raid and siege which ended with their compound catching fire when the FBI pumped CS gas into the building.
• Maria Devi Christos (born 1960), leader of the Great White Brotherhood popular in the former Soviet Union.
• Sergey Torop (born 1961), who started to call himself "Vissarion", founder of the Church of the Last Testament and the spiritual community Ecopolis Tiberkul in Southern Siberia.
• Alan John Miller (born 1962), founder of Divine Truth, a new religious movement based in Australia. Alan John Miller, also known as A.J., who claims to be Jesus of Nazareth through reincarnation. Miller was formerly an elder in the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Do you know who all these people are? They all proclaimed to have "special knowledge" from God, and that they spoke the truth of God. When you simply accept claims without supporting evidence, you could easily fall into line with one of the aforementioned.

 

You know, Jim Jones thought he had special knowledge, and then 918 men, women, and children drank poison and died because of it. Believing in a claim without evidence can destroy lives, homes, and any sense of goodness one could gain from this life. It is a dangerous and reckless epistemology.

 

The difference being I don't give two sh!ts about someone knowing my name. WAKE UP!

[Hierophant]

Many of those people did not seek fame either. They just thought they had special knowledge that others needed to know.

 

Look at David Koresh - really look at his story. He did not seek fame, nor did he actually think he was Jesus, he just thought he knew how to interpret the Bible and thought he needed to get the word out.

 

You need to wake up and realize that your belief is based on unfounded assertions. End of story. Take it to the streets where you can beguile those who are naive. You came here to convince a bunch of people who have primarily decided that unless a claim can be substantiated, it is not worth time, effort, and especially belief.

 

I mentioned Hitchens before, and Walter recently reminded me, but I find this philosophy useful:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens's_razor

[pittsburghjoe]

Weird how considering a path to the light can be worthless. Or maybe you are just cutting it off before you consider it.

[Hierophant]

I think I am speaking to a principle that you are not able to consider or empathize with when I state that I will not seriously consider a claim unless there is sufficient evidence to support that claim. The best I will give you is that what you are saying is possible, I cannot disprove it, but it becomes merely one possibility in a sea of possibilities. If I want to know what is true and real, I have to have a reliable, objective method of sifting through claims and then weighing the evidence to see what is most likely true based on the available evidence.

 

Consider this, what would you say if you ran into a Christian who vehemently disagreed with your double split theory? Moreover, a lot of Protestants do not think Catholics are even Christians. They think the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon as described in Revelation. I am not making this up, and I am sure other members here can attest. If you spend some time on the web, you will find plenty of evangelicals who think Catholics are misguided and under the influence of Satan. Just check out Chick Tracts.

 

What would you say to them that your version, your church, is the correct belief?

[pittsburghjoe]

But, oh wait! Someone else claimed to have the Holy Spirt ..that must mean everything I say is worthless!

[pittsburghjoe]

Your stance is that Church's don't agree with each other so you shouldn't believe any of them?

[Hierophant]

This is not going anywhere and you are not actively participating in a debate. Instead of a debate, you are simply making proselytizing statements.  I am not interested in addressing whatever random phrase you happen to gurgitate in the moment.

 

I think you have some homework to do before you come back here. I recommend you should watch hours of The Atheist Experience where you can hear every single argument proffered by theists and why they do not measure up. You should also visit talkorigins.org/ if you want to see arguments from creationist and evolutionist. I also recommended visiting infidels.org that contains arguments from theists and skeptics. And since you claim to be science minded, then you should know better than claims such as the Shroud of Turin. Scientist date it to the Middle Ages, not 4 CE. You do not get to pick and choose which science you like.

[Hierophant]

6 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

Your stance is that Church's don't agree with each other so you shouldn't believe any of them?

 

They could all be wrong, but they surely not all could be right.

 

Tell me, what sound, objective method could I employ to know who had it right? How could an interested outsider come to the same conclusion you did? How could you pass John Loftus' Outsider Test for Faith?

[Hierophant]

4 hours ago, pittsburghjoe said:

Your stance is that Church's don't agree with each other so you shouldn't believe any of them?

 

Also, at a fundamental level - all of these churches are saying the same thing as you! The Holy Spirit guides me, "I know and I know and I know," "I do not believe God would have me talking about this today if he did not want me to," "There is a reason you came through our doors today, welcome friend." If everyone is making the same claim, then there has to be some way to see who is not correct. Does that make sense to you?

[pittsburghjoe]

Do you really think God is going to prevent any person that believes Jesus died for us isn't going to be allowed in?

[pittsburghjoe]