Does the idea of a Lake of Fire (Hell) really make any sense?

[midniterider]

This thread is for Christians and non-Christians to discuss.

 

Here is The Dude's response in the other thread

 

I believe the "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor for willful eternal separation from God (i.e., "outer darkness").  Anyone that makes it there will have made a conscious choice that they'd rather rebel against God for all eternity, including Lucifer and all his angels.  I don't think there are very many people that have ever existed or ever will on this planet that are capable of such a choice.

And while I don't begrudge you of your difference in opinion, I do believe you'll have a change of heart at some point, whether it be in this life after witnessing some unexplainable phenomenon, in the afterlife when you are surprised to still be conscious, or perhaps only when you see Christ for yourself.  Despite the humorous but mild prodding in your response, your willingness to show someone with a completely different belief system a modicum of civility tells me that you're certainly not an evil person and probably not even an unpleasant one, and I just know for myself that God doesn't throw decent people away because they failed to believe in this life.

[TheDude]

Within the "General Christian Theological Issues" forum, there was a post called "I Find the Argument for Hell Only Satisfactory Prima Facie", the OP's first post was as follows:

 

Quote

Likely anyone reading this knows the typical argument in favor of God sending people to hell. I will give a quick rundown in case it has been awhile:

 

God does NOT send people to hell. People send themselves because they choose to disobey God and live life how they choose, that is, they are their own god. God does not make anyone go to hell but lets them freely choose who will they serve. In the end, those who chose to disobey God end up in hell as a natural consequence of their decisions where they will be tormented by the devil and his minions for eternity. Moreover, hell was not created for humans, but for the devil and his followers.

 

In the end, the argument is weaved in such a way to exonerate God of any wrongdoing or being morally culpable of the fact people are being punished forever.

 

I have not posted here much and none of you know me, but I will share something with you. Over the years, I have thought about these issues, and when I say I thought about them, I mean I have really been through them over and over....to the point where you could say I obsess over it. I mention this because I do not want anyone to draw the conclusion I have only considered this halfheartedly.

 

First let us consider the idea that God does not send anyone to hell. This is outlandish. All of these people derive their idea of God from the Bible and it clearly states God is going to judge everyone (sheep and the goats) and when that is over, some will go to paradise and the others to the lake of fire. The idea that God is passive in this whole process is an absurdity and flies in the face of the text.

 

Free will. Everyone seems to grasp on to this when attempting to exonerate God in the process of going to hell. I am not sure if these are people who do not know what the Bible actually says or if they just choose to ignore it. When you really consider it, if God is sovereign, then he created free will. Not only that, he created free will knowing the consequences it would have. He actually planted a tree in the garden of Eden knowing exactly what was going to happen. I will concede to free will to some extent, but not to the extent the average Christian would have you believe. The Bible states over and over God is in control and sanctions everything that happens in one way or another, either actively or passively (recall what Jesus said regarding the sparrows). In the end, I find the free will argument to be lacking because in all reality, it is a shame. What is the point of free will if God actually gave it to you just so you could give it right back and live in complete submission to his will. Would it not make more sense for God just to create us to behave exactly how he wanted us to? It would cut a lot of the heartache out on both ends.

 

God gives everyone a choice. This to me does not really make sense. Most people have no idea what Christianity is or anything about the Christian God. Even those of us in the church have heard conflicting views on who God is and what he wants. I would only accept this argument as valid if God personally revealed himself to everyone, and personally told them exactly what was expected. Now that is a choice, a fully informed choice at that.

 

What about the idea that Satan and his minions are somehow running hell and have authority to torment humans forever? Where this idea comes from, I have no idea. Consider Revelation where Satan is actually tormented himself. Not only that, it would not even make sense. A typical argument is that God is just (usually this follows after God is love. "Yes, yes, God is love, but God is also just." Sound familiar?). How would it be just to punish the rebellious humans who had far less revelation and fellowship with God over the rebellious angels who were actually with God and knew exactly what to believe and what to do. That is not just, in any sense of the word. People who bring this up in their talk on hell confound me and it tells me they have not through this through.

 

Lastly, the argument that hell was not created for humans is another ridiculous statement. If God is omnipotent and knows everything that will take place, then he knew humans were going to hell and in some sense, created hell for humans. If not, then God did not know humans were going to hell and would imply he is not omnipotent. Now if that is true, then we have a very different argument.

 

Matter of fact, if God does not know the future and there is something to open theism, I would have a very different take on the Christian idea of God and would cut a lot of slack where I am now skeptical. But I am not aware of any churches that would agree to this idea.

 

I largely concur with his criticisms of Traditional Christianity's view on Hell and take serious issue with the way in which members often treat those who disagree with them.

 

My initial response was as follows:

 

Quote

 

This thread is old, but fascinating nonetheless.  I wanted to share my perspective as a ex-Baptist.  While I don't consider myself ex-Christian, because I still believe in and trust Christ, I left behind traditional Christianity a few years ago, because it had too many logical inconsistencies.  I now find myself hounded by so-called "Christian" people with a cult-like fervor that angrily scream and shout at me telling me that I'm going to Hell for being in a "cult" and that I am "not Christian".  The irony seems to escape them.

 

Some of the logical inconsistencies that troubled me include how frequently the people trapped in traditional Christianity describe beliefs that seem to be the equivalent of weasel clauses one would find in real estate contracts.  The OP described this concisely in the below example:

Quote

God does NOT send people to hell. People send themselves because they choose to disobey God and live life how they choose, that is, they are their own god. God does not make anyone go to hell but lets them freely choose who will they serve. In the end, those who chose to disobey God end up in hell as a natural consequence of their decisions where they will be tormented by the devil and his minions for eternity. Moreover, hell was not created for humans, but for the devil and his followers.

 

In the end, the argument is weaved in such a way to exonerate God of any wrongdoing or being morally culpable of the fact people are being punished forever.

 

[...]All of these people derive their idea of God from the Bible and it clearly states God is going to judge everyone (sheep and the goats) and when that is over, some will go to paradise and the others to the lake of fire. The idea that God is passive in this whole process is an absurdity and flies in the face of the text.

While I still believe in Hell, I no longer believe that all people who don't accept Christ are destined for Hell (Luke 5:32), and I am no longer trapped in the idea of Heaven and Hell being binary.  First, by a reasonable reading of the Old Testament and also Luke 16:19-31, one would get the idea that both good and evil people are destined for the same abode after death (which I refer to as the "Spirit World"), though one's place and specific treatment specific treatment therein differs based upon one's choices in life.

 

I believe that at some point, Christ will resurrect the good to live for a millennium on the Earth with him ruling over it (Revelation 20:4, 6; 1 John 3:1-3), and they will have the opportunity learn and grow to be capable of dwelling in Heaven with the Father, sharing in all that he has (Luke 6:40; Romans 8:13-17, 2 Corinthians 6:16-18; Galatians 4:5; Revelation 21:6-7).  After those thousand years, the filthy and wicked will be resurrected too (Revelation 20:5), and they will live in a lesser state (Revelation 22:15).  I believe that everyone in the Spirit World will be taught about Christ (1 Peter 3:18-20) and the degree to which they allow themselves to be changed there influences their state therein and their state afterwards once they are resurrected (2 Corinthians 3:18).  If they don't allow themselves to change even after gaining a perfect knowledge of who Christ is and how much they need them to become righteous, they will remain as they are (Revelation 22:11), and then and only then will they be cast into "the Lake of Fire".

Now, having said that, you can disagree with my perspective as you like, and that's fine with me.  I'm not going to shout you down about it...  I'm pretty sure doing so is about as unchristian as it gets as Christ himself said "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

 

However, a moderator felt the discussion belonged in the Lion's Den, so here we are.

[midniterider]

The Dude doesnt believe good people will be thrown away (into Hell) just because they weren't believers/lovers of Christ upon their death (I think). 

 

You know, I'm good with that, then. That means I dont have to have faith in this life nor be bamboozled out of 10% of my income by a church. If there is no Christ then I just die and that's all she wrote. Well, I might reincarnate or something, who knows?

 

Now I did pray to Jesus and try to love Jesus while I called myself a Christian for a decade. Jesus didnt say anything that I'm aware of. I've been told a variety of reasons why God doesn't speak and they seem to be nonsense imo. "The still small voice"...belongs to the God that parted the Red Sea? I dont think so. "I didnt listen close enough"...super lame. He needs to speak up. I can hear human beings just fine. 

 

When I decided to stop going to church nothing really happened .... when I finally told Jesus I was done ....nothing. I'm not going to keep chasing after something that doesnt communicate ... and he probably doesnt communicate because he probably doesnt really exist.

[midniterider]

Copy and paste whatever you like from the Prima Facie thread over here for discussion.

[TheDude]

3 minutes ago, midniterider said:

The Dude doesnt believe good people will be thrown away (into Hell) just because they weren't believers/lovers of Christ upon their death (I think).

Correct.

 

Quote

You know, I'm good with that, then. That means I dont have to have faith in this life nor be bamboozled out of 10% of my income by a church."

Ha!  I get your perspective on that, but it doesn't really feel like a sacrifice to me.  Honestly, my assets and self-sufficiency have increased substantially since I began tithing.  But the way I think of it is akin to the way relationships with loyal friends work.  The more you're there for them, the more they are there for you.  The more effort I put into helping others in this life though sacrifice, the better my outcome will be in eternity.  I take seriously Christ's council in Matthew 6:

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Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

And Paul's in 1 Corinthians 3:

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According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

Now, to be clear, I don't think that only the efforts you make that are done because of religious devotion are "laying up treasures in Heaven".  I believe any intentional efforts you take in this life that aid those that are suffering are rewarded in the afterlife (Luke 10:25-37; John 13:35).

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, TheDude said:

Now, to be clear, I don't think that only the efforts you make that are done because of religious devotion are "laying up treasures in Heaven".  I believe any intentional efforts you take in this life that aid those that are suffering are rewarded in the afterlife (Luke 10:25-37; John 13:35).

 

I guess I would rather just help people because it gives me a good feeling to do so.

 

How does that saying go, "Integrity is what you do when no one is watching..." I guess that cannot apply to Christians.

[florduh]

A literal lake of fire makes as much sense as a literal talking snake, immaculate conception, rising from the dead or myriad other fantastic tales from the Bible.

 

Most modern Christians (if not all) have trouble understanding myth, metaphor and allegory expressed by ancient authors to make a metaphysical point.

[TheDude]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

I guess I would rather just help people because it gives me a good feeling to do so.

 

Same.  I help people because I have an internal feeling that I need to do it and a desire for others to have their needs met.  You'd probably explain that feeling as something that was evolutionarily cultivated.  I personally would call that feeling "the Light of Christ", a thumbprint from the creation. 

 

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

How does that saying go, "Integrity is what you do when no one is watching..." I guess that cannot apply to Christians.

 

While I've had some pretty unpleasant experiences with evangelicals insisting I am not Christian because I don't believe everything exactly the way they do, I sense that a good number of Christians have an internal desire to love everyone, regardless of their faith, and their motivation is not based upon reward but rather that Light of Christ that exists in everyone.  Just as a small child is id-focused and needs reward to reinforce positive behaviors, many people who consider themselves "Christian" are primarily motivated by the rewards they will receive in the afterlife.  For me, I believe it's just an added benefit that doesn't influence whether or not I want to help someone.

 

18 minutes ago, florduh said:

Most modern Christians (if not all) have trouble understanding myth, metaphor and allegory expressed by ancient authors to make a metaphysical point.

 

I'd agree that many Christians have only a superficial understanding of the scriptures and have made no real attempt at understanding the intent of the authors of the original signatures, and instead rely on eisegetical traditions.  At least anecdotally, most seem to be unaware that the Bible consists of books that originally were separate documents of various genres, and that they weren't combined into a single codex until around the 4th Century AD.  I would even agree that I myself cannot claim to understand all of the metaphors and allegory that is contained in the Bible and perhaps in many instances unintentionally interpret their meaning eisegetically.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

According to the book of revelation, hell is not the same as the lake of fire.  Hell is cast into the lake of fire after the final judgment, because hell is only intended, by god, to be a temporary place of punishment for those who do not believe.  Whoever's name is not written in the lamb's book of life will also be cast into the lake of fire to burn in torment for all of eternity. 

 

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14

 

 

[WalterP]

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev20.pdf

 

Is this of any help?

 

Verse 14 is translated into English as...

 

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death."

 

But the word-for-word translation on the left reads...

 

AND   THE   DEATH   AND   THE   UN-PERCEIVED  (Hades)  WERE-CAST   INTO   THE   LAKE   OF-THE   FIRE   this   IS   THE   second   DEATH

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheDude]

54 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

According to the book of revelation, hell is not the same as the lake of fire.

I suppose when discussing Hell, it's important to use precise terminology so it's clear which "Hell" one means.

 

54 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Hell is cast into the lake of fire after the final judgment, because hell is only intended, by god, to be a temporary place of punishment for those who do not believe.

The word "Hell" in English used to mean the abode nearly of all dead, not just the wicked, similar to the way "Hades" and "Sheol" are referred to in the Bible.  In my faith, we refer to this "Hell" as the "Spirit World".

 

However, most people when thinking of Hell are thinking of Gehenna (which I believe is synonymous with the Lake of Fire) rather than Hades.  "Gehenna" is mentioned in various locations in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but both it and the word "Hades" were translated "Hell" in English in the KJV, which would explain why the two places have been conflated in many people's minds.

 

54 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Whoever's name is not written in the lamb's book of life will also be cast into the lake of fire

That is what most Christians believe about the Lake of Fire, yes.  It's not what I or members of my faith believe to be the case, though.

 

54 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

to burn in torment for all of eternity

I don't think the scriptures make the case that people that want nothing to do with God in the end will burn for eternity.  There are references to "eternal fire", and "eternal punishment", but not "eternal punishment in fire".  I would argue that if the Lake of Fire is not metaphorical, how could someone suffer in fire forever?  If one were cast into eternal flames, they would burn until their body is gone and most likely would not suffer once their nerve endings were destroyed.

 

In my faith, the Lake of Fire is a metaphor for eternal separation from God for those that in the end, even after being conscious in the Spirit World for no less than 1,000 years and coming to a full understanding of God, choose to want nothing to do with him.  I believe these people will be exceedingly rare, if any.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, TheDude said:

 

Same.  I help people because I have an internal feeling that I need to do it and a desire for others to have their needs met.  You'd probably explain that feeling as something that was evolutionarily cultivated.  I personally would call that feeling "the Light of Christ", a thumbprint from the creation. 

 

I dont know that I've wondered why people try to be nice. I'm glad they often are.

 

1 hour ago, TheDude said:

 

While I've had some pretty unpleasant experiences with evangelicals insisting I am not Christian because I don't believe everything exactly the way they do, I sense that a good number of Christians have an internal desire to love everyone, regardless of their faith, and their motivation is not based upon reward but rather that Light of Christ that exists in everyone.  Just as a small child is id-focused and needs reward to reinforce positive behaviors, many people who consider themselves "Christian" are primarily motivated by the rewards they will receive in the afterlife.  For me, I believe it's just an added benefit that doesn't influence whether or not I want to help someone.

 

As a Christian I didnt really give much thought to it. My atheist/agnostic parents taught me to be nice to others. Maybe that was the light of Christ inside of them, though neither of them had nice things to say about Christianity. 

 

1 hour ago, TheDude said:

 

 

I'd agree that many Christians have only a superficial understanding of the scriptures and have made no real attempt at understanding the intent of the authors of the original signatures, and instead rely on eisegetical traditions.  At least anecdotally, most seem to be unaware that the Bible consists of books that originally were separate documents of various genres, and that they weren't combined into a single codex until around the 4th Century AD.  I would even agree that I myself cannot claim to understand all of the metaphors and allegory that is contained in the Bible and perhaps in many instances unintentionally interpret their meaning eisegetically.

 

Why should God's word need more than a superficial reading to understand? Does he not want us to understand it?  

[TheDude]

5 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Why should God's word need more than a superficial reading to understand? Does he not want us to understand it?  

That is an excellent question that I am not sure I can adequately answer for someone else.  I believe he does want us to understand but that he has given us the gift of agency to decide how much effort we want to put into having faith, and, while I am sure he would prefer that we come to a knowledge of him in this life, I believe those that would come to him at some point eventually will in the Spirit World.  Even people that committed terrible atrocities during this life that most of human kind would shun, like Genghis Khan, will probably come to faith in God and want to change as a consequence once they've been exposed to enough of the truth while there.  That doesn't mean I think his outcome when he's resurrected will look the same as, say, Mother Theresa's, though.

[TheDude]

32 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Is this of any help?

Yes, I think bringing the original language into the conversation is helpful to get the precision necessary to know what the original authors were talking about.  Like I was saying, the words "Hades" (or it's Hebrew equivalent "Sheol") and "Gehenna" were understood differently by Jews during Jesus' day, but unfortunately most people don't know that because the difference is obscured in the English translation by referring to them both as "Hell".

[midniterider]

8 minutes ago, TheDude said:

That is an excellent question that I am not sure I can adequately answer for someone else.  I believe he does want us to understand but that he has given us the gift of agency to decide how much effort we want to put into having faith, and, while I am sure he would prefer that we come to a knowledge of him in this life, I believe those that would come to him at some point eventually will in the Spirit World.  Even people that committed terrible atrocities during this life that most of human kind would shun, like Genghis Khan, will probably come to faith in God and want to change as a consequence once they've been exposed to enough of the truth while there.  That doesn't mean I think his outcome when he's resurrected will look the same as, say, Mother Theresa's, though.

 

That reminds me of this: 

 

I think there's gonna be some scuffles in heaven.

[midniterider]

Maybe Jesus could pop in here and answer our questions. Jesus? Are you around?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, TheDude said:

That is what most Christians believe about the Lake of Fire, yes.  It's not what I or members of my faith believe to be the case, though.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."  Revelation 20:15

[midniterider]

29 minutes ago, TheDude said:

That is an excellent question that I am not sure I can adequately answer for someone else.  I believe he does want us to understand but that he has given us the gift of agency to decide how much effort we want to put into having faith, and, while I am sure he would prefer that we come to a knowledge of him in this life, I believe those that would come to him at some point eventually will in the Spirit World.  Even people that committed terrible atrocities during this life that most of human kind would shun, like Genghis Khan, will probably come to faith in God and want to change as a consequence once they've been exposed to enough of the truth while there.  That doesn't mean I think his outcome when he's resurrected will look the same as, say, Mother Theresa's, though.

 

It just seems that the person has to do all the heavy lifting with regard to a relationship with Jesus. And if you dont get anywhere with it then "you didnt pray hard enough" or "you didnt study your bible enough" or in the case of some people here they studied the bible too much and discovered it is total nonsense. 

 

I think Christians expect very little from their God because they are willing to listen to silence for decades while pretending their hero is actually communicating or 'doing' something. I figure if, after 10 years of worshiping (or trying to worship) Jesus  and getting basically nothing back, then its doubtful he is real or that he will be motivated to do anything in an afterlife. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, TheDude said:

I don't think the scriptures make the case that people that want nothing to do with God in the end will burn for eternity

"The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name."  Revelation 14:11

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, TheDude said:

That is what most Christians believe about the Lake of Fire, yes.  It's not what I or members of my faith believe to be the case, though.

 

RNP & The Bible: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."  Revelation 20:15

 

...........

 

You are trying to twist scripture to mean what it actually says... You can't do that RNP.

 

[WalterP]

Hello Dude.

 

You write... 

 

That is what most Christians believe about the Lake of Fire, yes.  It's not what I or members of my faith believe to be the case, though.

 

So, could you please tell us what the members of your faith are collectively known as please?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[WalterP]

Also, this member...  https://www.ex-christian.net/profile/6549-thumbelina/

 

...calls herself a Christian, yet she believes that those who are cast into the lake of fire are completely consumed.

 

Not just their bodies, but their spirits as well, until they are totally annihilated and cease to exist forever.

 

So, whom should we believe has the correct understanding of scripture, her or you?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[florduh]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

According to the book of revelation, hell is not the same as the lake of fire.  Hell is cast into the lake of fire after the final judgment, because hell is only intended, by god, to be a temporary place of punishment for those who do not believe.  Whoever's name is not written in the lamb's book of life will also be cast into the lake of fire to burn in torment for all of eternity. 

 

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14

 

 

Preach it, brother!!! Amen!!!

[Joshpantera]

10 hours ago, TheDude said:

Honestly, my assets and self-sufficiency have increased substantially since I began tithing.  But the way I think of it is akin to the way relationships with loyal friends work.  The more you're there for them, the more they are there for you.  The more effort I put into helping others in this life though sacrifice, the better my outcome will be in eternity.  I

 

It's called synchronicity. You're playing around with the art of coincidence without being tuned in closely to what it is you're doing. I have the same results as an atheist with no tithing or religious belief. Since I put my consciousness in a given direction the finances then correspond to my specific focus. This works the same for christian or atheists because it more to do with mind and consciousness and less to do with the existence of literal deities and such. 

 

6 hours ago, TheDude said:

Just as a small child is id-focused and needs reward to reinforce positive behaviors, many people who consider themselves "Christian" are primarily motivated by the rewards they will receive in the afterlife.  For me, I believe it's just an added benefit that doesn't influence whether or not I want to help someone.

 

Yes, christianity is mostly an appeal to the human ego with it's desires for rewards and fear of punishment. The two combined have had a lot of influence on people. Whereas something like Buddhism outlines fear and desire as something of a weakness, to be overcome altogether if possible. But just consider that for a moment. 

 

 

[TheDude]

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

That reminds me of this: 

I think there's gonna be some scuffles in heaven.

Ha!  I don't think that's exactly how it works.  First, I don't believe people go to Heaven when they die, but rather to the Spirit World, where there is either Prison, a place where people are learning to change their ways, or Paradise, a place of rest for those who have.  I believe anyone that is capable of being in Paradise will not resent the presence of any of the other people that are there with them.

 

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

Maybe Jesus could pop in here and answer our questions. Jesus? Are you around?

Ha!  Now, the universe is a pretty big place.  I think perhaps he had other things to do than micromanage the affairs of everyone living on this planet.

 

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."  Revelation 20:15

Right, but again, the members of my faith believe that the Lake of Fire is a metaphor, not a literal lake of fire where people burn for eternity.

 

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

It just seems that the person has to do all the heavy lifting with regard to a relationship with Jesus. [...] I think Christians expect very little from their God[.]

I don't think suffering an infinite atonement to pay for the sins of every person who has ever existed is expecting very little from their God.

 

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name."  Revelation 14:11

Fair enough.  Including verse 10 is important for context to make your case because it actually mentions being tormented in fire and sulfur.  Though the verse is specifically referring to people who worship "the Beast", which is presumably Lucifer, and accept his mark, not all those who die without without having fidelity to Christ.

 

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

You are trying to twist scripture to mean what it actually says... You can't do that RNP.

Obviously you're being facetious, but I don't think he's twisting scripture.  He's using a literal interpretation of the verse rather than a figurative one.

 

3 hours ago, WalterP said:

So, could you please tell us what the members of your faith are collectively known as please?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  People often call us "Mormons", though that's not a term I have ever personally accepted.

 

3 hours ago, WalterP said:

...calls herself a Christian, yet she believes that those who are cast into the lake of fire are completely consumed.

 

Not just their bodies, but their spirits as well, until they are totally annihilated and cease to exist forever.

 

So, whom should we believe has the correct understanding of scripture, her or you?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

I take at face value that Thumbelina is a Christian if she indicates that she is.  If I were to hazard a guess without doing much research, I would assume she is either a Seventh Day Adventist or a Jehovah's Witness.

 

Now, regarding whom to believe, I think you have to decide for yourself what you think is right, but there is of course that neither she nor I are correct.  People in the Lake of Fire could somehow be burning for eternity (though that doesn't make much sense), or there could be no Lake of Fire at all.