Is the act of rejecting facts in favor of belief a kind of stupidity?

[florduh]

51 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

He interviewed some local doctors about the vaccine and asked if they were taking it. Their answer was no.

I know a lot of doctors and other health professionals who say otherwise. One vascular surgeon was actually giddy when his wife was finally allowed to get it. The first thing they tell us at a medical office is that they have all been vaccinated. They're trying to lead by example without pushing it because some people are so weird about it.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

44 minutes ago, florduh said:

I know a lot of doctors and other health professionals who say otherwise. One vascular surgeon was actually giddy when his wife was finally allowed to get it. The first thing they tell us at a medical office is that they have all been vaccinated. They're trying to lead by example without pushing it because some people are so weird about it.

 Just telling ya some of the stuff I'm hearing from equally accredited sources. And my own experience thus far. And what has lead me to these decisions. We aren't all listening to the conspiracy theories blindly like the media portrays. Although there are a lot that do. But I dont see anything wrong with me letting others be the guinea pigs. If it proves out that its all good over the next year or so. I'll take the shit. But not till I give it some time. 

[Myrkhoos]

7 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 Just telling ya some of the stuff I'm hearing from equally accredited sources. And my own experience thus far. And what has lead me to these decisions. We aren't all listening to the conspiracy theories blindly like the media portrays. Although there are a lot that do. But I dont see anything wrong with me letting others be the guinea pigs. If it proves out that its all good over the next year or so. I'll take the shit. But not till I give it some time. 

My mother had a swollen spot on her foot and hand after the vaccine for a few weeks. Are they connected? Maybe. Possibly. She did not report though.

     Plus, my two cents is that where there is so much money like in Big Pharma, you should be skeptical. Not about vaccines in general, or that these are microchips by bill gates ( altough if he could've he would've :)))). But international politics plus big money just makes me think there are things we are not told about, or we are lied about. What exactly I don't know.

    Maybe giving free vitamin c to everyone would vastly decrease severity but then again vit c is cheap and easy to make. Or smth like that. I do not doubt people will literally kill or let die millions just to fill tyeir pockets or advance in status. History is full of that. 

     Of course risk is a factor. A 60 year old pneumologist with diabetes vs a 31 year old with little social life habe vastly different risks for catching and dying from Covid. So for them vaccine risks are calculated differently. We shall see

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm going to move this thread to the Opine Club because it is starting to get totally off topic.  If you're not already a member, please join.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Myrkhoos said:

Plus, my two cents is that where there is so much money like in Big Pharma, you should be skeptical

 

Exactly!! Big pharma saw a cash cow with this virus. Every one of them. You can't trust a group that will take an epipen, or a 4 dollar prescription like colchicine was 15 years ago. ( its a very old formula used for treating gout. Which I have)  Make a small modification and remarked it at 250 dollars a bottle. Those people are not there to help people, they are there to make money by any means necessary. And I'm 40, I've already had it so I know how covid affected me and I really didn't get any life threatening symptoms. I know covid. I dont know this vaccine. But like you said. Of I was 65 with diabetes and COPD. Well yeah I'd probably take the risk and take the vaccine. 

 

There is nothing unreasonable about me or you wanting to wait and make sure this vaccine is safe in the long run. 

[florduh]

The insurance companies who have to pay for the vaccine are recommending it. Why would they do that since they're in it for the money? Because in the long run it saves them money if fewer people get the virus. I suppose the Big Mask industry also has an evil agenda because of all the money to be made selling masks. BTW, both masks and the vaccines have had a tremendous positive impact - they simply worked. The whole point in vaccines and fighting a pandemic, even the flu, is not about one's personal risk factors or how well they could tolerate catching the disease but protecting society at large by stopping the spread.

[Myrkhoos]

4 hours ago, florduh said:

The insurance companies who have to pay for the vaccine are recommending it. Why would they do that since they're in it for the money? Because in the long run it saves them money if fewer people get the virus. I suppose the Big Mask industry also has an evil agenda because of all the money to be made selling masks. BTW, both masks and the vaccines have had a tremendous positive impact - they simply worked. The whole point in vaccines and fighting a pandemic, even the flu, is not about one's personal risk factors or how well they could tolerate catching the disease but protecting society at large by stopping the spread.

Why would wall street firms make bets that would evidently crash their firms? - 2008 financial crash. Bk the big boys get all the money and little guy gets the axe. No worries

     I am not saying vaccines and masks do not "work". Masks, when properly used ( like not week old reused with diff fam members) clearly have some impact on disease which is mainly spread through tiny droplets in the air. Vaccines, as well.

       But I have SERIOUS doubts that mass vaccination with these vaccines is the solution to the pandemic on the SOCIAL level as well. If you want PROVEN ( for thousands of years) ways to stop the spread, I suggest New Zealand model , and yaneer bar yam zero covid model- a specific model of qurantines and lockdowns, testing and financial support. Plus investing in cures like centivax antibodies and preventative supplementation. Like I said, is any state offering free vit C and quercetin and zinc- proven immune boosters? 

     I am not convinved that me taking the vaccine would actually help me or my fellow citizens. I socially distanced, wore a mask, tool care of health more, tried to help out my parents bk I thought those measures I thought WOULD help me and others. Still doing those.

     

      

[florduh]

1 hour ago, Myrkhoos said:

I am not convinved that me taking the vaccine would actually help me or my fellow citizens.

It has worked very well to slow the spread - almost to zero around here since the vaccines have had time to be distributed. Mass immunization is meant to protect large groups, not necessarily individuals. We wear the masks and take the shots for the benefit of others. It's really that simple, and it has proven to be effective. I don't understand how anyone can see the clear results and still deny the effectiveness of the measures.

[Myrkhoos]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

It has worked very well to slow the spread - almost to zero around here since the vaccines have had time to be distributed. Mass immunization is meant to protect large groups, not necessarily individuals. We wear the masks and take the shots for the benefit of others. It's really that simple, and it has proven to be effective. I don't understand how anyone can see the clear results and still deny the effectiveness of the measures.

Well, no, it's not THAT simple. Again, I agreed with the masks so no need to bring that up again.

      With vaccines. First of all where do you get your info on lower spread? Who, when, where, why, does the testing? 

     Second, why are you so sure this isn't a correlations vs causation thing? Maybe an epidemic, like the 1918 one, had waves, and vaccine distribution just caught on to a normal decreasing one. Even the 1918 one waned in the second year, and that in post war depression conditions 

    Third, effectivness remains to seen on the long term. This might be a short term decrease followed by a long term increase in more dangerous vaccine resistant variants.

     These vaccines HAVE not been proven to stop transmission, so, actually, they only act individually. They make you be asymptomatic.

    There is a lot of data not known or not knowable at the moment and what I don't understand is your certainty confronted with incomplete data from proven unreliable sources (govt data) . Does not that remind you of certainty of some religious people that "just don't understand why atheists do not believe in Jesus when it is so obvious? " - actual things they say.

     Instead quarantines and lockdowns actually HAVE  so much data that you actually find hints of it in the Old Testament. Again, New Zealand case, even South Korea, Taiwan, China. Zero covid model actually stops spread because it stops it at the origin -human carriers. But hey, that would require a sort of UBI for pandemic times and why not just give that money to big pharma?  

     You can tell me about the effectivness in a year. I hope you are right. Bk if I am right, vaccination campaign is just producing super corona virus vaccine resistant with higher mortality , and severity, with only a short term relief of a few months a year at tops. Again the argument is laid down with all the science by geert van den bossche on his website. I admit, I have not read all myself but it is there. 

      It is not over until it's actually over. 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 5/28/2021 at 4:50 PM, Myrkhoos said:

You can tell me about the effectivness in a year. I hope you are right. Bk if I am right, vaccination campaign is just producing super corona virus vaccine resistant with higher mortality , and severity, with only a short term relief of a few months a year at tops. Again the argument is laid down with all the science by geert van den bossche on his website. I admit, I have not read all myself but it is there. 

      It is not over until it's actually over. 

 

I think at this point I'm more worried about long term side effects. I've heard of two people now that had abnormal swelling after the vaccine and one stroke. They rushed this through and we just don't know at this point bc it will take time to see if there are any unseen reactions to it. 

 

In the same token tho I'm also hearing about long term symptoms of the virus itself. Like severe joint pain months after infection. 

 

Big pharma and the Govt have brought this suspicion on themselves. A lot of people just feel like they can't trust either. Guess thats the price you pay for purposefully dividing the country and pitting one side against the other for decades, instead of promoting unity. 

[Myrkhoos]

4 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I think at this point I'm more worried about long term side effects. I've heard of two people now that had abnormal swelling after the vaccine and one stroke. They rushed this through and we just don't know at this point bc it will take time to see if there are any unseen reactions to it. 

 

In the same token tho I'm also hearing about long term symptoms of the virus itself. Like severe joint pain months after infection. 

 

Big pharma and the Govt have brought this suspicion on themselves. A lot of people just feel like they can't trust either. Guess thats the price you pay for purposefully dividing the country and pitting one side against the other for decades, instead of promoting unity. 

And putting the dollar as supreme value in healthcare. Why wouln t people think , somewhere, there is a scam out for their money when that happens literally daily

[Joshpantera]

On 5/28/2021 at 4:50 PM, Myrkhoos said:

These vaccines HAVE not been proven to stop transmission, so, actually, they only act individually.

 

I know several people who have caught covid after vaccination. One of them died. The others have rolled out of it. All of this prior to my wife and I getting Moderna.

 

The first shot wasn't much, sore in the arm for a few days. The second shot turned into what felt like a descent flu with fever and body aches. I broke the fever the first night but the body aches went on for a few days. Then it was over. I was back at it as if nothing ever happened. I'll see what happens going forward. But so far there's no sign of any problems. It does look like it's working statewide as the cases in Florida have fallen down to 1,250. 

 

But the facts are the facts. You can get vaccinated and also die of covid regardless. You can hope for the best when getting a vaccine and thereafter. But there's no guarantees. I saw a Bill Maher show recently where apparently he tested positive being full vaccinated. Made light of the reality of the situation. Was up front and honest about it. 

 

Looks like a situation where the facts read as no guarantees, everything is still up to chance on a case by case basis, and it seems to be helping the situation so far regardless of no guarantees and everything up to chance. 

 

I'll post here if anything happens or if I experience some sort of long term symptoms unexpectedly return, which, is apparently possible. But hopefully not likely to happen....

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

On 6/2/2021 at 12:46 PM, Joshpantera said:

I know several people who have caught covid after vaccination. One of them died. The others have rolled out of it. All of this prior to my wife and I getting Moderna.

 

 

If this comes as a surprise to anyone then they don't know how vaccines work and haven't been reading the actual scientific reports on them... as opposed to whatever garbage the media spits out.

 

I don't think there is enough education around vaccines and so you get people coming up with what is basically a cookie cutter list of problems that are generally the result of ignorance and stupidity. A combination, as we know, that can be fatal.

 

I shake my head when I hear someone say "someone caught covid after the vaccine" or "someone died". Yeah, the best one has an efficacy rating of 95%. So at least 5 people out of every 100 are gonna get it. Multiply that by the milions/billions vaccinated and yep, people still gonna die. 

 

My bottom line is that yes the vaccine is not perfect, it can have side effects, but a risk analysis vs catching covid and all its risks leads me to conclude the facts are on the side of getting vaccinated. Unless you plan on permanent non human contact isolation. 

[Joshpantera]

8 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

I shake my head when I hear someone say "someone caught covid after the vaccine" or "someone died". Yeah, the best one has an efficacy rating of 95%. So at least 5 people out of every 100 are gonna get it. Multiply that by the milions/billions vaccinated and yep, people still gonna die. 

 

My bottom line is that yes the vaccine is not perfect, it can have side effects, but a risk analysis vs catching covid and all its risks leads me to conclude the facts are on the side of getting vaccinated. Unless you plan on permanent non human contact isolation. 

 

That's nice, but why are you speaking in a way that looks as if I didn't already say what you've just said???

 

On 6/1/2021 at 8:46 PM, Joshpantera said:

But the facts are the facts. You can get vaccinated and also die of covid regardless. You can hope for the best when getting a vaccine and thereafter. But there's no guarantees. I saw a Bill Maher show recently where apparently he tested positive being full vaccinated. Made light of the reality of the situation. Was up front and honest about it. 

 

Looks like a situation where the facts read as no guarantees, everything is still up to chance on a case by case basis, and it seems to be helping the situation so far regardless of no guarantees and everything up to chance. 

 

When I did. 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

18 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Unless you plan on permanent non human contact isolation. 

 

Or just living my life with the risk of catching covid. I've had covid. Wasn't that bad for me at this stage in my life. The vaccine on the other hand, I haven't had. And I dont know how it will affect me. My uncle had a stroke after. We have some of the same genes. I'm hoping for a better vaccine.

[freshstart]

5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Or just living my life with the risk of catching covid. I've had covid. Wasn't that bad for me at this stage in my life. The vaccine on the other hand, I haven't had. And I dont know how it will affect me. My uncle had a stroke after. We have some of the same genes. I'm hoping for a better vaccine.

I guess the problem I see with this point of view is that even non-symptomatic  covid-positive folks can spread the virus to those who are really vulnerable.  Getting vaccinated is not only about protecting oneself, but also protecting the community with extremely effective vaccines. 

Its very curious to me that people are hesitant about vaccines when they do not hesitate to get into a car (across the globe, hundreds of thousands of people die in motor vehicle accidents annually) or to take antibiotics (tens of thousands die from side effects of antibiotics each year) or many other things that involve risk each day that is known to be far greater than any risk from a vaccine.  I know people who fear the vaccine,  but don’t fear smoking, excessive drinking, or being overweight – all of which come with known risks that will likely hurt them in the long run. 

I think people have also forgotten that vaccine science started over 200 years ago and has essentially eradicated some pretty nasty diseases (tetanus, polio, small pox, and rabies – to name a few). 

As for the speed with which covid vaccines were developed, this is not the first time scientists have raced to accomplish something big.  It took just 27 months to develop an atomic bomb – in the 1940s.  Amazing.  An atomic bomb that wiped out over 200,000 people using 1940s technology that lacked so many of the resources we have today.

As for "Big Pharma" conspiracy theories, one has to remember that Big Pharm employees are just ordinary people  - with spouses, kids, moms, dads, significant others.  They are not mad scientists with zero scruples out to make some all-be-damned vaccine just to rake in money.  The level of cooperation and secrecy needed by hundreds if not thousands of pharmaceutical employees to devise and implement such a sinister plan is just not realistic.

The bottom line is people take risks every day involving unknowns, but they choose not to think about those risks.  In the case of covid vaccines, people have forgotten all the historical success with vaccines, they have little understanding of how the vaccines work, and they have access to all sorts of conspiracy theories that prey on their fears.

Here's some anecdotal feedback:  I work in 2 facilities, one of which is a nursing home that had multiple covid units this time last year and many people going to the hospital, some of whom died, others a long stay in ICU, others recovered.  We are currently experiencing another (lesser) wave of covid, but with almost all occupants vaccinated, this time around, no one is in the hospital and most are asymptomatic.  In the hospital, again this time last year, we had people in the halls, private rooms with 2 patients, our break room was converted to a patient room, and one of our auditoriums room was converted to patient holding area.  This year, my unit is no longer a covid unit and none of those other things are happening.  However, I know quite a few nurses who had covid and have had long-term effects (chronic cough, shortness of breath, fatigue, etc.).  I had an adverse reaction to the second vaccine (as did many of my colleagues), but it lasted only a day. 

My hope is that people look at the big picture, look at data, look at studies, look at the risks they take everyday,  and make an educated decision. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, freshstart said:

I guess the problem I see with this point of view is that even non-symptomatic  covid-positive folks can spread the virus to those who are really vulnerable.  Getting vaccinated is not only about protecting oneself, but also protecting the community with extremely effective vaccines. 

 

Its very curious to me that people are hesitant about vaccines when they do not hesitate to get into a car (across the globe, hundreds of thousands of people die in motor vehicle accidents annually) or to take antibiotics (tens of thousands die from side effects of antibiotics each year) or many other things that involve risk each day that is known to be far greater than any risk from a vaccine.  I know people who fear the vaccine,  but don’t fear smoking, excessive drinking, or being overweight – all of which come with known risks that will likely hurt them in the long run. 

 

I think people have also forgotten that vaccine science started over 200 years ago and has essentially eradicated some pretty nasty diseases (tetanus, polio, small pox, and rabies – to name a few). 

 

As for the speed with which covid vaccines were developed, this is not the first time scientists have raced to accomplish something big.  It took just 27 months to develop an atomic bomb – in the 1940s.  Amazing.  An atomic bomb that wiped out over 200,000 people using 1940s technology that lacked so many of the resources we have today.

 

As for "Big Pharma" conspiracy theories, one has to remember that Big Pharm employees are just ordinary people  - with spouses, kids, moms, dads, significant others.  They are not mad scientists with zero scruples out to make some all-be-damned vaccine just to rake in money.  The level of cooperation and secrecy needed by hundreds if not thousands of pharmaceutical employees to devise and implement such a sinister plan is just not realistic.

The bottom line is people take risks every day involving unknowns, but they choose not to think about those risks.  In the case of covid vaccines, people have forgotten all the historical success with vaccines, they have little understanding of how the vaccines work, and they have access to all sorts of conspiracy theories that prey on their fears.

 

Here's some anecdotal feedback:  I work in 2 facilities, one of which is a nursing home that had multiple covid units this time last year and many people going to the hospital, some of whom died, others a long stay in ICU, others recovered.  We are currently experiencing another (lesser) wave of covid, but with almost all occupants vaccinated, this time around, no one is in the hospital and most are asymptomatic.  In the hospital, again this time last year, we had people in the halls, private rooms with 2 patients, our break room was converted to a patient room, and one of our auditoriums room was converted to patient holding area.  This year, my unit is no longer a covid unit and none of those other things are happening.  However, I know quite a few nurses who had covid and have had long-term effects (chronic cough, shortness of breath, fatigue, etc.).  I had an adverse reaction to the second vaccine (as did many of my colleagues), but it lasted only a day. 

My hope is that people look at the big picture, look at data, look at studies, look at the risks they take everyday,  and make an educated decision. 

 

Look take this with a grain of salt. But I am the only one that knows me. At this point I feel safe in saying that whatever vulnerable people you speak of should get the vaccine. I'm not all that vulnerable. The shot is "free" in the US. So please. If you are afraid covid will kill you then by all means. Go for it. But I'm just not scared of covid. I did my part before the vaccine wearing a mask, wiping down surfaces and gas pumps etc. Trying to make sure I didn't spread the virus. Now that there is a preventative for those that are more susceptible, if they don't get the vaccine and I give it to them, well thats on them, not me. They are the ones that its more likely to kill, they should get the shot to protect themselves. My oldest has a lot of problems and I urged him to get is ASAP. Because I wanted him protected. 

 

I've had the virus, been exposed multiple times since, and haven't had another case. Will my immunity wear off? I'm sure it will. And when I get to a point in my life that covid will potentially kill me. I'll probably take the vaccine. But until then. I wait and watch.

 

I've taken all other vaccinations that most people have had. I am not an anti-vaxer. However I know the flu shot makes me sick so I dont take it. Every time I've tried it. And I have tried it several times. I get sick for days and have to take off work. I may get the flu from time to time but I'm not old enough to worry about it killing me. Getting really sick once every 5-6 years is a small price to pay for me not to get sick every year from a shot. I will probably be the same way with covid. This virus isn't going to go away. Just like the flu has been around since the last pandemic. And I'm not taking a shot every 6-8 months to keep it at bay. Thats me. 

 

You do you. I'll do me. That's really all I can say about it. I'm not against anyone else getting it. Yes I've voiced my personal concerns. But if anyone else wants it thats their choice. Just as not taking it is mine.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, freshstart said:

In the case of covid vaccines, people have forgotten all the historical success with vaccines, they have little understanding of how the vaccines work, and they have access to all sorts of conspiracy theories that prey on their fears.

 

A Johnson and Johnson recall wasn't a conspiracy theory. My uncles stroke isn't a conspiracy theory, friends abnormal swelling isn't a conspiracy theory. That's just shit that happened. And its not side effects like getting sick for a few days like the flu shot does to me. I'm sure over the next few years this vaccine will be revised repeatedly. The first run of anything always has issues. And thats not conspiracy. Thats just lessons learned in life. I was planning on taking it until I started hearing about issues from people I knew that had taken it. Thats when I decided to wait. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, freshstart said:

Here's some anecdotal feedback:  I work in 2 facilities, one of which is a nursing home that had multiple covid units this time last year and many people going to the hospital, some of whom died, others a long stay in ICU, others recovered.  We are currently experiencing another (lesser) wave of covid, but with almost all occupants vaccinated, this time around, no one is in the hospital and most are asymptomatic.  In the hospital,

 

Realistically you probably would have seen less severe symptoms on a second wave anyway. Just as the flu isn't killing people like it did in 1918. Can't say the flu shot is the cause for the decline. It has only been around for a decade or two. I'm sure it has since its invention but between 1918 and the flu shot it was nothing like the first world wide wave. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

LMAO I just saw the background image that the @TheRedneckProfessor put on this forum. Thats pretty funny  

[LogicalFallacy]

On 6/7/2021 at 3:39 PM, freshstart said:

My hope is that people look at the big picture, look at data, look at studies, look at the risks they take everyday,  and make an educated decision.

 

QFT. Very well put. But more often than not people go off of emotional responses rather than evidence driven ones. 

[LogicalFallacy]

On 6/7/2021 at 9:44 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

That's nice, but why are you speaking in a way that looks as if I didn't already say what you've just said???

 

I wasn't responding directly to you, I was using your post to highlight a common theme among 'skeptics' or outright deniers then ranting about their collective stupidity. It wasn't directed at you Josh, I knew what you were saying and was aware I was kind of repeating it. Sorry if it came across as a personal attack. Not my intention. I was just talking in general.

 

PS... hence why I opened with " if this comes as a surprise to anyone" not "if... to YOU". If I think your argument is flawed I will direct my counter to you, not the general ether.

[LogicalFallacy]

@DarkBishop just wondering if you are aware that the vaccine doesn't just protect you, but also helps protect others you come into contact with? Thus the whole line about someone else getting the virus from you is on them is in my opinion a result of misunderstanding why it's important that everyone who can get the vaccine. There are some people that for various reasons cannot take the vaccines and are thus reliant on everybody who can take it does in order to help protect the vulnerable. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

@DarkBishop just wondering if you are aware that the vaccine doesn't just protect you, but also helps protect others you come into contact with? Thus the whole line about someone else getting the virus from you is on them is in my opinion a result of misunderstanding why it's important that everyone who can get the vaccine. There are some people that for various reasons cannot take the vaccines and are thus reliant on everybody who can take it does in order to help protect the vulnerable. 

LF,

 

I'm not taking the vaccine until it has less side effects period. Side effects like abnormal swelling, flu like symptoms, and stroke are not something I am willing to risk for myself. Especially after having a relative have a stroke after taking the vaccine. Some of them have been rumored to cause blood clots. That could have been why my uncle had the stroke. I know how covid affects me and I would rather have it. I am one of those that cannot take it for various reasons. For me it is not safe enough for me to take. I am not convinced and until I am I will not take it.