The Problem of evoL

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Are you using the words 'understanding' and 'reality' interchangeably, Ed?

 

 

No, not at all.  There has to be either an absolute finite reality or infinite.  Our understanding is attached to both, but only a partial knowledge level.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

We won't ever know whether reality is absolute and finite or infinite because we don't have the ability.

 

Again, just thinking out loud, if reality was absolute, our outcomes are fixed.  If reality were infinite, our outcomes have the potential to change...

 

I'm thinking this relates to the quantum clusterscrew...but that just me.  

 

But surely THE question you, me and the Prof are trying to resolve is this.

 

Does our knowing or not knowing the true nature of reality actually change it?

 

Not our perception of reality, but reality itself.

 

?

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

No, not at all.  There has to be either an absolute finite reality or infinite.  Our understanding is attached to both, but only a partial knowledge level.

 

Can you clarify what you mean by infinite, Ed?

 

For instance, the entire universe could be infinite in size, but we can only be affected by what currently lies within the observable universe.

 

Events occurring zillions of light years beyond the limit of the observable universe cannot affect us.

 

So, do you mean infinite in some other sense?

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

But surely THE question you, me and the Prof are trying to resolve is this.

 

Does our knowing or not knowing the true nature of reality actually change it?

 

Not our perception of reality, but reality itself.

 

?

Yes and no.  There's our perception of reality and an undefined reality.  I am saying that we don't have the ability to define the undefined, which greatly could affect OUR reality.  

 

The undefined is either absolute or infinite.

 

I'm saying that if our perceptions were tied to something absolute, our paths would be predictable, but if that undefined is infinite, than our paths have the ability to change.

 

And this really reminds me of another pattern.  Life and death as described by the Bible.  An absolute "undefined" would result in death where an infinite "undefined" would result in a continuation...

 

Apologies, tricky trying to describe mental projections with words.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Getting back to the OP, it just occurred to me that every time god refuses to intervene in order to prevent evil, he is making a deliberate choice himself.  He is exercising his own "free will".  Every child who starves to death, alone and abandoned, is a deliberate choice made by god.  Every 10-year-old girl who gets raped is a choice god made.  

 

But, don't mind me, y'all carry on trying to figure out if absolutes are absolute or not.  I'm going to add this thought to me Suffering thread.

[pantheory]

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

We won't ever know whether reality is absolute and finite or infinite because we don't have the ability.

 

Again, just thinking out loud, if reality was absolute, our outcomes are fixed.  If reality were infinite, our outcomes have the potential to change...

 

I'm thinking this relates to the quantum clusterscrew...but that just me.  

 

We do know that reality is much more expansive than what we can observe via our senses, but we also know that there is no such thing as absolute reality. What we are familiar with in science and philosophy are called perspectives of reality.

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Getting back to the OP, it just occurred to me that every time god refuses to intervene in order to prevent evil, he is making a deliberate choice himself.  He is exercising his own "free will".  Every child who starves to death, alone and abandoned, is a deliberate choice made by god.  Every 10-year-old girl who gets raped is a choice god made.  

 

But, don't mind me, y'all carry on trying to figure out if absolutes are absolute or not.  I'm going to add this thought to me Suffering thread.

No, your're speculating on an undefined potential. IF, in our subjectivity, we don't possess the knowledge of an undefined reality, then you have no idea what the process is outside of our perception.  The incredible thing is you don't see this and make a case for God doing it all.  You don't know is the answer and should be given you are science oriented.  I'd still share my beer with you, but you need to pick up your game.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

14 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm saying that if our perceptions were tied to something absolute, our paths would be predictable, but if that undefined is infinite, than our paths have the ability to change.

 

And this really reminds me of another pattern.  Life and death as described by the Bible.  An absolute "undefined" would result in death where an infinite "undefined" would result in a continuation...

It reminds me of the "free will versus predestination" argument in light of god's omniscience.  As in, if god is omniscient and knows our decisions beforehand, then our reality is tied to something absolute and our paths are not only predictable, but already predicted.

 

That said, I think you need to put more thought into perception of reality versus actual reality.  Thinking an ex cheated on you and divorcing as a result, only to find out later that the alleged infidelity never took place will not change the status of your child custody or the amount of your alimony payments.  

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

We do know that reality is much more expansive than what we can observe via our senses, but we also know that there is no such thing as absolute reality. What we are familiar with in science and philosophy are called perspectives of reality.

It's interesting to me that our bodies only last a certain amount of time in this dilemma....

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It reminds me of the "free will versus predestination" argument in light of god's omniscience.  As in, if god is omniscient and knows our decisions beforehand, then our reality is tied to something absolute and our paths are not only predictable, but already predicted.

 

That said, I think you need to put more thought into perception of reality versus actual reality.  Thinking an ex cheated on you and divorcing as a result, only to find out later that the alleged infidelity never took place will not change the status of your child custody or the amount of your alimony payments.  

Maybe, but he throws faith in Christ in there to provide a Way out of the finite.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

No, your're speculating on an undefined potential. IF, in our subjectivity, we don't possess the knowledge of an undefined reality, then you have no idea what the process is outside of our perception.

It's not my speculation, it is the doctrine that god is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.  But reality demonstrates he cannot be both.  Starving children is not an undefined reality; and we all have plenty of ideas as to why they're allowed to starve by a god who claims to love them unconditionally.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It's not my speculation, it is the doctrine that god is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.  But reality demonstrates he cannot be both.  Starving children is not an undefined reality; and we all have plenty of ideas as to why they're allowed to starve by a god who claims to love them unconditionally.

In our perception of reality, you cannot say he cannot be both.  You have no means of saying so.  This SHOULD BE congruent with being a scientist.

[pantheory]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

It's interesting to me that our bodies only last a certain amount of time in this dilemma....

 

True, but modern medicine has greatly increased the length of the average human life span. Almost all life on Earth has an age limit to it based upon our research. But through genetic modifications and stem-cell infusions, there would seem to be no predetermined age limit to life for any particular species including humans.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

In our perception of reality, you cannot say he cannot be both.  You have no means of saying so.  This SHOULD BE congruent with being a scientist.

Of course I have the means to say so.  Logic precludes the possibility of him being both by way of Epicurus' Problem of Evil.  This is congruent with being a scientist and drawing conclusions based on the available data (that evil exists), instead of looking for evidence to support a presupposition (that god is good).

[TheRedneckProfessor]

33 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Maybe, but he throws faith in Christ in there to provide a Way out of the finite.

And does this addition change the reality that 95% of humanity will end up in hell, or just the perception of it?

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

And does this addition change the reality that 95% of humanity will end up in hell, or just the perception of it?

Your supposition is that there is no choice based on a finite reality (as I understand).  About the same rejection rate for reverse osmosis.....

 

Logic and ego sometimes get used the same....it's ok.  

 

(f'n with you man, don't take it seriously)

[Edgarcito]

and logically, you would assume reality is not finite.  It seems like you and Walter and a host of the population here are fine with a given amount of certainty being adequate to call the game.  I'm not, nor should any logical scientist be.  Thx.

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 

We do know that reality is much more expansive than what we can observe via our senses, but we also know that there is no such thing as absolute reality. What we are familiar with in science and philosophy are called perspectives of reality.

Thanks, I'd like to know more about how they come to these understandings.  Thanks for the input.

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Can you clarify what you mean by infinite, Ed?

 

For instance, the entire universe could be infinite in size, but we can only be affected by what currently lies within the observable universe.

 

Events occurring zillions of light years beyond the limit of the observable universe cannot affect us.

 

So, do you mean infinite in some other sense?

 

I'm back again, Ed.

 

So, could you please help me out by addressing the above?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes and no.  There's our perception of reality and an undefined reality.  I am saying that we don't have the ability to define the undefined, which greatly could affect OUR reality.  

 

The undefined is either absolute or infinite.

 

I'm saying that if our perceptions were tied to something absolute, our paths would be predictable, but if that undefined is infinite, than our paths have the ability to change.

 

And this really reminds me of another pattern.  Life and death as described by the Bible.  An absolute "undefined" would result in death where an infinite "undefined" would result in a continuation...

 

Apologies, tricky trying to describe mental projections with words.

 

 

 

Apologies accepted, Ed.

 

But I still think that you are using the words 'absolute' and 'infinite' in a highly personal way.

 

One that we don't currently share with you and which you'll need to explain further if we're to understand you.

 

Can you please try and give us definitions of what you mean by 'absolute' and what you mean by 'infinite'?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[pantheory]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Thanks, I'd like to know more about how they come to these understandings.  Thanks for the input.

 

They are presently making many genetic changes in plants, animal, and human genetics via a new process called CRISPR. This gene editing process can change plant, animal, and human genetics and characteristics via DNA, including length of life.

 

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/genomicresearch/genomeediting/

 

I am a scientist familiar with stem cell infusions that can also presently be used for most larger plants and animals including humans. This process is already proven to be able to alter the length of life for many of these organisms.

 

https://www.bioxcellerator.com/blog/stem-cell-iv-infusion-what-to-expect-and-the-benefits

 

The problem of Evol does not exist is science, only the problem of invasive species. cannibalism, eating other species, changing the environment which eliminates species. the murder and crimes of humanity, etc. etc. -- humanity perceived evols. I believe that the human animal should come first, but a delicate balance with other plant and animal life must also be considered IMO.

 

IMHO as to religion, believing in God and Jesus via Christianity, can be equated with believing in Santa Clause and the Ester Bunny. For humanity, one of the biggest evols is to kill and rule others in the name of religion -- via religious wars. And knowing truths is far better than believing in what I consider to be the total fantasies of religion.

 

But, ANYWHO, you are a cool guy IMO Edgarcito.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

In our perception of reality, you cannot say he cannot be both.  You have no means of saying so.  This SHOULD BE congruent with being a scientist.

 

Perhaps the Prof thinks that god has the power to make himself known and understandable to us on our terms?

 

That god can simultaneously demonstrate his omnipotence and his benevolence in a way that we can understand?

 

That if god cannot or will not do this, then he is not who and what he claims to be?

 

That god can effortlessly overcome any of our mental obstacles of definition or undefinition because he's god?

 

That god should have no problem showing his omnipotence and omnibenevolence to a scientist on a scientist's terms?

 

That because god hasn't done this yet, this indicates that god isn't who he claims to be?

 

 

The bottom line here Ed is that whatever objection you can come up with, god should be able to overcome it.

 

Otherwise he isn't god, right?

 

 

 

(Sorry if I've overstepped the mark Prof and attributed things to you that you don't agree with.)

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

and logically, you would assume reality is not finite.  It seems like you and Walter and a host of the population here are fine with a given amount of certainty being adequate to call the game.  I'm not, nor should any logical scientist be.  Thx.

 

Au contraire, Ed.

 

Going back to the observable universe again; our best measurements indicate that the geometry of the universe is flat.

 

Flat universes do not curl up upon themselves to become enclosed and finite volumes of space.

 

They go on forever.  They are boundless and unbounded.  They are not confined or limited at all.

 

 

And I'm quite happy to live in an infinite universe and to be uncertain about a great many things.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Your supposition is that there is no choice based on a finite reality (as I understand).  About the same rejection rate for reverse osmosis.....

 

Logic and ego sometimes get used the same....it's ok.  

 

(f'n with you man, don't take it seriously)

I make no supposition here.  I'm just playing the devil's fiddle.  It ain't as nice as that golden one I won off him back in Georgia.  Still, he's got good tastes in instruments. 

[walterpthefirst]