New Christian Visitor

[Edgarcito]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CjgINiQr7XP/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

  Lol, with that said, I think I have a purpose that I don't care to share.  

 

 

It's nice to have a purpose.

[walterpthefirst]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Certainly.  I want to be honest here as I am enjoying actual discussion.... the moderation, and Walter's seemingly different attitude.  The question would be in light of this post, are our bodies somehow manifested with purpose or as a result of some dispensational plan, or both.  I.e., just accept your role and hold on in faith.  In retrospect, I've always felt like an inner strength even as a child.  As a teen, I wasn't even remotely "saved" and used to find disdain in TV evangelicals bc that's the only contact I had with church.  To date, I still think there is a distinction between, essentially, people and moments in Communion, and that feeling, and when we are out of Communion.  I don't know, seems to lend a predestination aspect to the unique subjection.... which I'm not really a predestination guy.  Lol, with that said, I think I have a purpose that I don't care to share.  

 

I found a video that gives me that feeling.  Let me see if I can manage to move it here.  Thanks again.

 

Edgarcito,

 

I can certainly relate to much that you've written here.  But before I go into that, first let me say thank you for your honesty and openness.  Now to business...

 

When I was a Christian I certainly experienced long moments and even long minutes of feeling deeply connected to god and strongly connected to my fellow Christians by god.  I'd lay good money that other Ex-Christians here experienced similar things when they were believers.  So I don't think you should be in any doubt that we can understand and appreciate, to some degree, what you've just described to us.

 

But the UK is a multi-racial, multi-faith society and unless you bury your head in the sand it's impossible not to be aware of people of other religions that live in your community.  Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus mostly.  When I was a Christian I made it my business to live at peace with everyone, just as the bible says.  So, this meant treating everyone with respect, meeting, talking with them and also learning about their beliefs and feelings.

 

Over the years what struck me was the similarity of their inner experiences to my own.  And yours.  Sure, the details of who they were praying to and what holy book they were reading were different, but in terms of pure emotion and feeling there was very little difference between the Christian, the Jew, the Muslim, the Sikh or the Hindu.  At the time I couldn't account for it but I hoped that one day they would eventually 'see the light' and realize that Jesus was the answer they were all looking for.

 

But now that I'm an Ex-Christian I can't dismiss that similarity so readily.  Instead I have a different interpretation.  The similarity seems to me to be the product of something that's common to all people, regardless of their religion.  Specifically, an inner desire to feel part of something larger and more meaningful than ourselves.  To feel a connection on a cosmic or eternal level, one that transcends the smallness and shortness of a human life.  To be part of a greater whole or a higher purpose.  And with this connection comes joy and hope and a feeling of inner peace.  

 

You see how well this fits in with what you described, Ed?  And can you also see that if you don't know much about other religions, it would then be logical for you to believe that Christ was the source of these feelings in you?  This ties in exactly with the question Krowb put to you yesterday.  That if you had been raised in another country and in another religion, you'd quite likely attribute your feelings of communion to another god.

 

If we all experience these feelings, regardless of which faith we are raised in, then it logically follows that the different gods we attribute these feelings to can't be true source of these feelings.  If that were true then all of these different gods would exist simultaneously and none of them could lay claim to being the one, true god.   What I think is more likely is that the true source of these feelings lies only within ourselves and that we 'pin' them on whichever god we happen to know about.  And the god that we happen to know about would be a function of how our parents raised us and/or whichever god our culture believes in.

 

Well, that's about it.  

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[duderonomy]

22 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Snitches get stitches, homie.

 

Remember that when you're in jail and they ask you who sent you there, bro.

 

Edited to try to make it more funny. Shut up.

 

[duderonomy]

14 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Ok, then what do you consider true? 

 

Does it matter?   My considerations may not be true, just like yours. 

 

My point is that if one is going to argue against the Bible and Biblegod and Jesus, one should argue against the Bible and Biblegod and Jesus, not rail against the same because certain things were promised by preachers or certain feeling must be assuaged or the world is going to Hell without the handbasket Grandpa said there'd be and so on.

 

My point has been that whether we believe the Bible is true or not we should try to quote it/use it honestly in our arguments. 

 

Apologetics based on "feelings" or what seems fair to me? Rubbish. Rubbish rubbish fucktardery and bollocks. 

 

 

[duderonomy]

13 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@TheRedneckProfessor and @duderonomy I tried my damnedest to find a picture of two rednecks spooning but I guess this will have to do. 

 

 

 

DB

 

Wow. First time ever in my life I've been memed!

I'm honored., and I mean that.

 

Also, thank you DB for depicting me as the better looking one. Relaxed in my thoughts and ideas, and with RNP looking desperate and being a bit clingy behind me, like he's holding on for dear life. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

My point has been that whether we believe the Bible is true or not we should try to quote it/use it honestly in our arguments. 

Pray tell. Do you feel that I haven't quoted it honestly? Which of the 45,000 interpretations have I offended? I've seen you mention a couple of things that weren't quit right to me. But figured maybe it was just the way your church interpreted it, to make an excuse for God's obvious inaction. I've actually been thinking about a response to them. But I've been busy with AIK. Would you like me to pay attention to you for a little while?

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

48 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

 

Wow. First time ever in my life I've been memed!

I'm honored., and I mean that.

 

Also, thank you DB for depicting me as the better looking one. Relaxed in my thoughts and ideas, and with RNP looking desperate and being a bit clingy behind me, like he's holding on for dear life. 

Lol. Thats actually a picture from broke back mountain and I think he's about to fuck you in the ass.

 

But your welcome. I'm glad you feel honored to be memed lmao  

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

27 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Lol. Thsts actually a picture from broke back mountain and I think he's about to fuck you in the ass.

 

But your welcome. I'm glad you feel honored to be memed lmao  

 

DB

@duderonomy

 

That was unintentional tho. I was really just trying to find two rednecks spooning and that really was the only source I could find something that fit the meme I was trying to make. 

 

You guys should just calm down a bit. Its ok to have differences. Its hard not to get pissed off sometimes. Thats why I don't bring up how much I hate gun control here. And that is not an invitation to talk about it. I know how that goes here. Then I feel like I'm getting ganged up on. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But they are gonna stink like shit to somebody. 

 

I wish you would explain what exactly it is you do believe. Do you recognize that Christianity is false but teaching the good parts are OK and promoted? Because I will agree that there are a lot of good teachings in the bible to make someone a better person. But there are a lot of horrible teachings in the bible as well that really can't be looked over for the fundamental believer. And those beliefs are not good for the human psychi. IMO. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

14 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Edgarcito,

 

I can certainly relate to much that you've written here.  But before I go into that, first let me say thank you for your honesty and openness.  Now to business...

 

When I was a Christian I certainly experienced long moments and even long minutes of feeling deeply connected to god and strongly connected to my fellow Christians by god.  I'd lay good money that other Ex-Christians here experienced similar things when they were believers.  So I don't think you should be in any doubt that we can understand and appreciate, to some degree, what you've just described to us.

 

But the UK is a multi-racial, multi-faith society and unless you bury your head in the sand it's impossible not to be aware of people of other religions that live in your community.  Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus mostly.  When I was a Christian I made it my business to live at peace with everyone, just as the bible says.  So, this meant treating everyone with respect, meeting, talking with them and also learning about their beliefs and feelings.

 

Over the years what struck me was the similarity of their inner experiences to my own.  And yours.  Sure, the details of who they were praying to and what holy book they were reading were different, but in terms of pure emotion and feeling there was very little difference between the Christian, the Jew, the Muslim, the Sikh or the Hindu.  At the time I couldn't account for it but I hoped that one day they would eventually 'see the light' and realize that Jesus was the answer they were all looking for.

 

But now that I'm an Ex-Christian I can't dismiss that similarity so readily.  Instead I have a different interpretation.  The similarity seems to me to be the product of something that's common to all people, regardless of their religion.  Specifically, an inner desire to feel part of something larger and more meaningful than ourselves.  To feel a connection on a cosmic or eternal level, one that transcends the smallness and shortness of a human life.  To be part of a greater whole or a higher purpose.  And with this connection comes joy and hope and a feeling of inner peace.  

 

You see how well this fits in with what you described, Ed?  And can you also see that if you don't know much about other religions, it would then be logical for you to believe that Christ was the source of these feelings in you?  This ties in exactly with the question Krowb put to you yesterday.  That if you had been raised in another country and in another religion, you'd quite likely attribute your feelings of communion to another god.

 

If we all experience these feelings, regardless of which faith we are raised in, then it logically follows that the different gods we attribute these feelings to can't be true source of these feelings.  If that were true then all of these different gods would exist simultaneously and none of them could lay claim to being the one, true god.   What I think is more likely is that the true source of these feelings lies only within ourselves and that we 'pin' them on whichever god we happen to know about.  And the god that we happen to know about would be a function of how our parents raised us and/or whichever god our culture believes in.

 

Well, that's about it.  

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand the point.  I'm just not sure what you would like me to do with it.  Maybe someday I will have a revelation about it that might change my perspective.  That's kinda my thoughts for now.  It's easily understandable, just not for me at the moment.

 

Thanks.

[Myrkhoos]

15 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Edgarcito,

 

I can certainly relate to much that you've written here.  But before I go into that, first let me say thank you for your honesty and openness.  Now to business...

 

When I was a Christian I certainly experienced long moments and even long minutes of feeling deeply connected to god and strongly connected to my fellow Christians by god.  I'd lay good money that other Ex-Christians here experienced similar things when they were believers.  So I don't think you should be in any doubt that we can understand and appreciate, to some degree, what you've just described to us.

 

But the UK is a multi-racial, multi-faith society and unless you bury your head in the sand it's impossible not to be aware of people of other religions that live in your community.  Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus mostly.  When I was a Christian I made it my business to live at peace with everyone, just as the bible says.  So, this meant treating everyone with respect, meeting, talking with them and also learning about their beliefs and feelings.

 

Over the years what struck me was the similarity of their inner experiences to my own.  And yours.  Sure, the details of who they were praying to and what holy book they were reading were different, but in terms of pure emotion and feeling there was very little difference between the Christian, the Jew, the Muslim, the Sikh or the Hindu.  At the time I couldn't account for it but I hoped that one day they would eventually 'see the light' and realize that Jesus was the answer they were all looking for.

 

But now that I'm an Ex-Christian I can't dismiss that similarity so readily.  Instead I have a different interpretation.  The similarity seems to me to be the product of something that's common to all people, regardless of their religion.  Specifically, an inner desire to feel part of something larger and more meaningful than ourselves.  To feel a connection on a cosmic or eternal level, one that transcends the smallness and shortness of a human life.  To be part of a greater whole or a higher purpose.  And with this connection comes joy and hope and a feeling of inner peace.  

 

You see how well this fits in with what you described, Ed?  And can you also see that if you don't know much about other religions, it would then be logical for you to believe that Christ was the source of these feelings in you?  This ties in exactly with the question Krowb put to you yesterday.  That if you had been raised in another country and in another religion, you'd quite likely attribute your feelings of communion to another god.

 

If we all experience these feelings, regardless of which faith we are raised in, then it logically follows that the different gods we attribute these feelings to can't be true source of these feelings.  If that were true then all of these different gods would exist simultaneously and none of them could lay claim to being the one, true god.   What I think is more likely is that the true source of these feelings lies only within ourselves and that we 'pin' them on whichever god we happen to know about.  And the god that we happen to know about would be a function of how our parents raised us and/or whichever god our culture believes in.

 

Well, that's about it.  

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To piggy bank on this idea. I recently tried to pray to Shiva, and a Chinese Buddhist deity of compassion - Guan Yin. I have to say, I had very far out experiences. I mean, if those happened to me ten years ago, I would ve been in an ashram ot a buddhist monastery probably :)). I still can t really make my mind up with certainty about them, but I do feel that we as human beings have an innate biological drive to connect with the same, or sometimes even more force than the drive to eat, sleep, etc. It is a survival imperative and thriving imperative , just on a purely biological level. It does shape us in ways we can ve very unaware of. That is why I, as an aside, I consider modern hyperindividualism an atomism as a great issue. Everything I read or experiences convinces me the idea of the "sovereign" individual is at best half the story, at worst plain bullshit :))

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I understand the point.  I'm just not sure what you would like me to do with it.  Maybe someday I will have a revelation about it that might change my perspective.  That's kinda my thoughts for now.  It's easily understandable, just not for me at the moment.

 

Thanks.

 

Edgarcito,

 

I'm just happy that we understand each other on this point.  As for me, I have no right to tell you or even ask you what you should do about it.  You are your own man and you must beat your own path.

 

And I also strongly agree with what you say about where you are at the moment.  There are times in people's lives when they are ready to do things and there are other times when it's right to hold off from acting.  You should do only what you feel lead to do at the time of YOUR choosing.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Edgarcito,

 

I'm just happy that we understand each other on this point.  As for me, I have no right to tell you or even ask you what you should do about it.  You are your own man and you must beat your own path.

 

And I also strongly agree with what you say about where you are at the moment.  There are times in people's lives when they are ready to do things and there are other times when it's right to hold off from acting.  You should do only what you feel lead to do at the time of YOUR choosing.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

+1 Thank you sir!

[duderonomy]

21 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Pray tell. Do you feel that I haven't quoted it honestly? Which of the 45,000 interpretations have I offended? I've seen you mention a couple of things that weren't quit right to me. But figured maybe it was just the way your church interpreted it, to make an excuse for God's obvious inaction. I've actually been thinking about a response to them. But I've been busy with AIK. Would you like me to pay attention to you for a little while?

 

DB

 

DB, pay all the attention you want for as long as you like. I may or may not give a damn, but if you look back a few years here you'll see that I can out piss you any day of the week if you want to be a combative asshat and start a contest.

 

God forbid you discuss shit instead of swinging your dick and jumping to conclusions.  You used to be cool. 

 

 

 

 

[duderonomy]

21 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Lol. Thats actually a picture from broke back mountain and I think he's about to fuck you in the ass.

 

But your welcome. I'm glad you feel honored to be memed lmao  

 

DB

 

I knew that's where the pic was from.  I am honored to be memed, and you will always be the first one to have memed me. They say you never forget your first time, you know?

 

I see that you tried to make joke DB, but memes are only funny if they are based in truth. Everyone knows that TRP never could get it up for me.

[duderonomy]

21 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@duderonomy

 

That was unintentional tho. I was really just trying to find two rednecks spooning and that really was the only source I could find something that fit the meme I was trying to make. 

 

You guys should just calm down a bit. Its ok to have differences. Its hard not to get pissed off sometimes. Thats why I don't bring up how much I hate gun control here. And that is not an invitation to talk about it. I know how that goes here. Then I feel like I'm getting ganged up on. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But they are gonna stink like shit to somebody. 

 

I wish you would explain what exactly it is you do believe. Do you recognize that Christianity is false but teaching the good parts are OK and promoted? Because I will agree that there are a lot of good teachings in the bible to make someone a better person. But there are a lot of horrible teachings in the bible as well that really can't be looked over for the fundamental believer. And those beliefs are not good for the human psychi. IMO. 

 

DB

 

 

 

Here is the bottom line:  If we are going to rail against Biblegod for doing what Biblegod said he would do in the Bible, it might not be a good argument to say that wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes in diverse places, people that abuse children, starvation, poverty, sickness, pestilence, death, and etc. are proof that there is no Biblegod when it's exactly what the Bible says will happen.

 

Please read that again.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

 

 

Here is the bottom line:  If we are going to rail against Biblegod for doing what Biblegod said he would do in the Bible, it might not be a good argument to say that wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes in diverse places, people that abuse children, starvation, poverty, sickness, pestilence, death, and etc. are proof that there is no Biblegod when it's exactly what the Bible says will happen.

 

Please read that again.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll reply in the A.M. time to sleep 4 me.

[Myrkhoos]

3 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

 

 

Here is the bottom line:  If we are going to rail against Biblegod for doing what Biblegod said he would do in the Bible, it might not be a good argument to say that wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes in diverse places, people that abuse children, starvation, poverty, sickness, pestilence, death, and etc. are proof that there is no Biblegod when it's exactly what the Bible says will happen.

 

Please read that again.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

     Yes and no. If the Bible describes God in a contradictory way e.g. that can be considered indication that the text is inconsistent, e.g. loving but vengeful which means it describes multiple versions of a God. This, in turn, means the text is untrustworthy in describing only one omnimax Supreme being, as most Christians and Jews maintain.So, if even the fundamental Scripture of the religion is untrustworthy, what trust can you have in their doctrines?

     This is like discovering the DSM V has numerous typos, fragmented phrases and contradictory indication and diagnostic recomandations. After what, what trust can you have in psychiatry as a field of medicine?

    In fact, what I said is kind of the standard viewpoint from academia, the Bible is a multiviewpoint document, at times incoherent.

.     This is how the argument goes for me. Open to be shown the mistake.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

12 hours ago, duderonomy said:

God forbid you discuss shit instead of swinging your dick and jumping to conclusions.  You used to be cool. 

Well your the one that doesn't want to discuss your stance now. You just want to come in and hurl insults without any substance to your argument. You didn't even quote any bible verses to back anything up that you just said. 

 

I remember you being more of an ExChristian awhile back when I first came here. 

 

11 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

Here is the bottom line:  If we are going to rail against Biblegod for doing what Biblegod said he would do in the Bible, it might not be a good argument to say that wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes in diverse places, people that abuse children, starvation, poverty, sickness, pestilence, death, and etc. are proof that there is no Biblegod when it's exactly what the Bible says will happen.

 

So here is the other argument you have really brought forth. And in part you are right. And in part you are twisting scripture. 

 

Jesus did tell the apostles in the gospels that we would ways have the poor. And I think most of what your talking about is in Matthew.

 

Matthew 24

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

So yes you do have a point up to an extent. But not for the specific issues we were dealing with in the suffering for the sins of the world thread. You want to lump all suffering into a nice neat little clump and say God said it was gonna happen and its happening. 

 

So here we have Jesus telling them about the beginning of sorrows. Which are really just common place events of there time that they knew wouldn't stop. There wasn't a way to stop it back then. I doubt they remembered a time where there wasn't wars and rumors of wars. They were being ruled by the Roman Empire after all. 

 

And yes famines and pestilences. Those are like swarms of locusts and famines. Possibly caused by the locusts. Now we have pesticides instead of pestilences. So those issues were inevitable back then. If the world would work together now, we could probably end world hunger. But everyone wants to squabble over beliefs usually. Part of the reason for this war in Ukraine is because of religious opposition to western ideology. But a big part of it is just Putin wanting to bring back the glory days of the USSR. 

 

anyways let's not go on that rabbit trail. Gotta keep myself on track here. Reel in that A.D.D.

 

Your point on child abuse and especially child sex slavery. Your gonna have to find some scripture to show me where that was gonna be a thing. Don't get me wrong. I understand child abuse and molestation have always been an issue. It isn't really talked about in the bible. Other than the rules about incest in the law of Moses. But I'm sure it has always been around. 

 

The next verse is part of the problem in your argument.

 

Mathew 24

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

Every time it mentions a Christian suffering it is always for the faith, for Jesus, for God, or for his names sake. Maybe I'm wrong and you can find a scripture to the contrary. But I didn't see where the senseless suffering of his children in christ is going to happen. 

 

He does say this though. Which I know you have seen us discussing on the other threads recently. Because you've interrupted those threads as well. 

 

Mark 11

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

 

John 14

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

Matthew 17

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

 

John 15

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

 

Jesus made promises. Hefty promises. According to the scripture we are to believe that God is:

 

All powerful 

All knowing

All loving

Ever Present

AND WILL ANSWER THE RIGHTEOUS PRAYER OF FAITHFUL BELIEVERS.

 

Psalms 121

1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

2 My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.

3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.

4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.

5 The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand.

6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.

7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.

8 The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

 

Yet repeatedly this is not the case. Yes the bible says that there will be suffering in the world. But that doesn't mean that the promises of God and Jesus shouldn't also exist. If the bible were true. 

 

To think that an Omni God as depicted in the bible would be present watching an abducted Christian child be raped repeatedly and murdered while her parents call out to him to save her isn't an option. She isn't dying and being tortured for christ. It didn't matter what her religious affiliation was. She was just an opportunity.

 

We have all read the acts of the apostles and the miracles of Jesus. Jesus said Christians would be able to do all of that and even greater things. 

 

It was said that the very shadow of Peter would heal a person. 

 

Yet the God of Christendom today does nothing. The very little that is accredited to him is usually the result of advanced medicine. We aren't moving mountains by prayer. Christians suffer just as much as non-Christian. Their prayers have no effect other than a placebo for the believer. It gives them hope that God is going to heal, save, keep safe, work a miracle, or some other desired outcome.

 

This doesn't happen. Almost Half of the world believes in Christ to some capacity. 

 

Christ should be glorifying the father through miracles everywhere. According to the scripture.

 

But that does not happen. 

 

These are all lies. If there was ever a false prophet or false christ, it was the one that has his words written in red in the gospels.

 

Because his words are not OUR reality. 

 

Thanks,

 

Dark Bishop

[Myrkhoos]

7 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Well your the one that doesn't want to discuss your stance now. You just want to come in and hurl insults without any substance to your argument. You didn't even quote any bible verses to back anything up that you just said. 

 

I remember you being more of an ExChristian awhile back when I first came here. 

 

 

So here is the other argument you have really brought forth. And in part you are right. And in part you are twisting scripture. 

 

Jesus did tell the apostles in the gospels that we would ways have the poor. And I think most of what your talking about is in Matthew.

 

Matthew 24

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

So yes you do have a point up to an extent. But not for the specific issues we were dealing with in the suffering for the sins of the world thread. You want to lump all suffering into a nice neat little clump and say God said it was gonna happen and its happening. 

 

So here we have Jesus telling them about the beginning of sorrows. Which are really just common place events of there time that they knew wouldn't stop. There wasn't a way to stop it back then. I doubt they remembered a time where there wasn't wars and rumors of wars. They were being ruled by the Roman Empire after all. 

 

And yes famines and pestilences. Those are like swarms of locusts and famines. Possibly caused by the locusts. Now we have pesticides instead of pestilences. So those issues were inevitable back then. If the world would work together now, we could probably end world hunger. But everyone wants to squabble over beliefs usually. Part of the reason for this war in Ukraine is because of religious opposition to western ideology. But a big part of it is just Putin wanting to bring back the glory days of the USSR. 

 

anyways let's not go on that rabbit trail. Gotta keep myself on track here. Reel in that A.D.D.

 

Your point on child abuse and especially child sex slavery. Your gonna have to find some scripture to show me where that was gonna be a thing. Don't get me wrong. I understand child abuse and molestation have always been an issue. It isn't really talked about in the bible. Other than the rules about incest in the law of Moses. But I'm sure it has always been around. 

 

The next verse is part of the problem in your argument.

 

Mathew 24

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

Every time it mentions a Christian suffering it is always for the faith, for Jesus, for God, or for his names sake. Maybe I'm wrong and you can find a scripture to the contrary. But I didn't see where the senseless suffering of his children in christ is going to happen. 

 

He does say this though. Which I know you have seen us discussing on the other threads recently. Because you've interrupted those threads as well. 

 

Mark 11

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

 

John 14

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

Matthew 17

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

 

John 15

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

 

Jesus made promises. Hefty promises. According to the scripture we are to believe that God is:

 

All powerful 

All knowing

All loving

Ever Present

AND WILL ANSWER THE RIGHTEOUS PRAYER OF FAITHFUL BELIEVERS.

 

Psalms 121

1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

2 My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.

3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.

4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.

5 The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand.

6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.

7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.

8 The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

 

Yet repeatedly this is not the case. Yes the bible says that there will be suffering in the world. But that doesn't mean that the promises of God and Jesus shouldn't also exist. If the bible were true. 

 

To think that an Omni God as depicted in the bible would be present watching an abducted Christian child be raped repeatedly and murdered while her parents call out to him to save her isn't an option. She isn't dying and being tortured for christ. It didn't matter what her religious affiliation was. She was just an opportunity.

 

We have all read the acts of the apostles and the miracles of Jesus. Jesus said Christians would be able to do all of that and even greater things. 

 

It was said that the very shadow of Peter would heal a person. 

 

Yet the God of Christendom today does nothing. The very little that is accredited to him is usually the result of advanced medicine. We aren't moving mountains by prayer. Christians suffer just as much as non-Christian. Their prayers have no effect other than a placebo for the believer. It gives them hope that God is going to heal, save, keep safe, work a miracle, or some other desired outcome.

 

This doesn't happen. Almost Half of the world believes in Christ to some capacity. 

 

Christ should be glorifying the father through miracles everywhere. According to the scripture.

 

But that does not happen. 

 

These are all lies. If there was ever a false prophet or false christ, it was the one that has his words written in red in the gospels.

 

Because his words are not OUR reality. 

 

Thanks,

 

Dark Bishop

Like I said, I really do think the Bible read as such is clearly inconsistent, incoherent and contradictory. That is why you need mountains of commentary to tie it all up neatly. 

      By the way, one way "suffering of the innocent" was explained is that sin is not , on a deeper level, a legal act. It is more like a disease. Because of the fall of Adam, we all have it, to more or less extent. We are born with it. Not with guilt, but with a sort of genetic disorder. Only after the final ressurection shall it be truly healed. And suffering is a necessary part of the healing. For all humans, irrespective of age. So any child that is raped, tortured and killed is actually God's love manifesting to clean the fallen nature. I am not kidding.

    I could never wrap my head around this view of suffering, and the commandment to alleviate as much as possible. Maybe it was sort of a training exercise, no mater how much you punch the bag you re not going give it a KO. The sheer volume of contradictions I had to somehow balance was mind splitting.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

Like I said, I really do think the Bible read as such is clearly inconsistent, incoherent and contradictory. That is why you need mountains of commentary to tie it all up neatly. 

      By the way, one way "suffering of the innocent" was explained is that sin is not , on a deeper level, a legal act. It is more like a disease. Because of the fall of Adam, we all have it, to more or less extent. We are born with it. Not with guilt, but with a sort of genetic disorder. Only after the final ressurection shall it be truly healed. And suffering is a necessary part of the healing. For all humans, irrespective of age. So any child that is raped, tortured and killed is actually God's love manifesting to clean the fallen nature. I am not kidding.

    I could never wrap my head around this view of suffering, and the commandment to alleviate as much as possible. Maybe it was sort of a training exercise, no mater how much you punch the bag you re not going give it a KO. The sheer volume of contradictions I had to somehow balance was mind splitting.

That is a disgusting theology. I actually came across that yesterday. I read what the person had written. He referenced about 5 scriptures but it was full of assertions. For instance one scripture was the curse in genesis 3. Where God says, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

 

He references that scripture and immediately says that is when suffering entered the world. I just don't see that. Its a curse for physical labor. And working to eat. It wasn't going to be provided for them any longer. I guess that can be linked to suffering. Working like they had to work to raise crops in those times definitely would have been rough. But I just don't think that is referring to the type of suffering that we are talking about. And certainly not for God's faithful. The Bible is filled with stories about how God blesses the faithful. How he always protected the children of isreal from harm unless they forgot his ways. 

 

More and more I see that a lot of what is taught in churches has to be filled in with personal assertions from the pastors own points of view. 

 

They didn't teach that in the churches I went to. Usually suffering was accepted to be a trials of faith. Most the sermons about suffering were usually referenced to Job, and all the troubles the apostles endured, and of course the suffering of Jesus. 

 

But when you really read the promises. And see all the stories of the faithful in the bible. That message just doesn't fit. Even though the isrealites had to deal with working stubborn ground to grow their food. God still usually blessed them. And showed favor for his people. 

 

DB

[duderonomy]

20 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

     Yes and no. If the Bible describes God in a contradictory way e.g. that can be considered indication that the text is inconsistent, e.g. loving but vengeful which means it describes multiple versions of a God. This, in turn, means the text is untrustworthy in describing only one omnimax Supreme being, as most Christians and Jews maintain.So, if even the fundamental Scripture of the religion is untrustworthy, what trust can you have in their doctrines?

     This is like discovering the DSM V has numerous typos, fragmented phrases and contradictory indication and diagnostic recomandations. After what, what trust can you have in psychiatry as a field of medicine?

    In fact, what I said is kind of the standard viewpoint from academia, the Bible is a multiviewpoint document, at times incoherent.

.     This is how the argument goes for me. Open to be shown the mistake.

 

 

Recomandations?

[Myrkhoos]

13 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

That is a disgusting theology. I actually came across that yesterday. I read what the person had written. He referenced about 5 scriptures but it was full of assertions. For instance one scripture was the curse in genesis 3. Where God says, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

 

He references that scripture and immediately says that is when suffering entered the world. I just don't see that. Its a curse for physical labor. And working to eat. It wasn't going to be provided for them any longer. I guess that can be linked to suffering. Working like they had to work to raise crops in those times definitely would have been rough. But I just don't think that is referring to the type of suffering that we are talking about. And certainly not for God's faithful. The Bible is filled with stories about how God blesses the faithful. How he always protected the children of isreal from harm unless they forgot his ways. 

 

More and more I see that a lot of what is taught in churches has to be filled in with personal assertions from the pastors own points of view. 

Well the Bible was not and is not a standalone document. Of course you need extra commentary/interpretation to make it fit. But "disgusting" is a visceral reaction. So...I mean many people vomited at the idea of racial equality.

     For example, I was taught and this is in the Gospels, that God protects you from spiritual harm, not physical harm. Physical harm can and is usually a blessing in disguise. The whole Fall was actually a blessing in disguise, after the first sin.

13 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

They didn't teach that in the churches I went to. Usually suffering was accepted to be a trials of faith. Most the sermons about suffering were usually referenced to Job, and all the troubles the apostles endured, and of course the suffering of Jesus. 

Well, like before, it depends on how you interpret said suffering. 

13 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

But when you really read the promises. And see all the stories of the faithful in the bible. That message just doesn't fit. Even though the isrealites had to deal with working stubborn ground to grow their food. God still usually blessed them. And showed favor for his people. 

 

DB

Again, what does "favour" mean? Earthly delights? But like before, I agree with you on the whole. The Bible, taken as a standalone document, does not fit. Neither with itself nor ordinary reality.

    That is WHY most Christianity, no matter how much they want to say they are solely Bible based, they need volumes of add ons. A rabbi once said that the Torah is basically uninteligible without the Talmud, the oral Torah.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

25 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

Well the Bible was not and is not a standalone document. Of course you need extra commentary/interpretation to make it fit. But "disgusting" is a visceral reaction. So...I mean many people vomited at the idea of racial equality.

     For example, I was taught and this is in the Gospels, that God protects you from spiritual harm, not physical harm. Physical harm can and is usually a blessing in disguise. The whole Fall was actually a blessing in disguise, after the first sin.

Well, like before, it depends on how you interpret said suffering. 

Again, what does "favour" mean? Earthly delights? But like before, I agree with you on the whole. The Bible, taken as a standalone document, does not fit. Neither with itself nor ordinary reality.

    That is WHY most Christianity, no matter how much they want to say they are solely Bible based, they need volumes of add ons. A rabbi once said that the Torah is basically uninteligible without the Talmud, the oral Torah.

I just didn't realize how much even I added to the narrative when I was preaching. The effects off indoctrination are crazy. I've been doing my best lately to really see what the Bible and the Bible only says about things. And it is much more of an obvious myth without all the opinionated assertions that the ministers add in. 

 

It is nice to be able to see it from the outside now. Without the Christian blinders on. 

 

DB

 

 

[Myrkhoos]

20 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I just didn't realize how much even I added to the narrative when I was preaching. The effects off indoctrination are crazy. I've been doing my best lately to really see what the Bible and the Bible only says about things. And it is much more of an obvious myth without all the opinionated assertions that the ministers add in. 

 

It is nice to be able to see it from the outside now. Without the Christian blinders on. 

 

DB

 

 

          What I would say is, that "what the Bible and the Bible only says" is not really that obvious, a lot of times. At its best, it resembles a sort of vague sketch. Without adding to it, it's really incomplete.

          Not only that, but the Orthodox position on it was something like, Simeon the New Theologian said, interpreting the Bible can be done in the same way that is was produced, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, it will lead you astray. I think I already said this before.

            I mean, the often-unspoken feeling when a not Orthodox would quote me the Bible to prove to me that my interpretation was wrong was to look at them like when the Devil quoted the Bible to tempt Jesus in the desert. I mean, that is why I was never really bothered about "Bible" contradictions, or weird stuff, etc. I always thought the basis of my faith was the official Church theology.

          Anyway, enough of that. The thing is, the human mind is such an extraordinary thing, that it can, given enough time, to rationalize white is black and black is white. That is why, now, when I am discussing certain, think, I really consider- what is the standard here? Do we have a common one? Because, if they start, well I have the Holy Spirit and you have the fallen nature plus devilish inspiration, a dialogue is basically impossible, and it transforms in a sort of the occasion for the Christian to dispel the devil through his grace filled words or something, if even that. More and more I realize so MANY dialogues do not start from a common ground and how time consuming they can be.