Satan and Fallen Angels is a Christian Lie

[RichDellaValle]

I am 79 years old. I became a Christian in 1977. I became an atheist in 2001. I have since poured thousands of hours into studying to disprove all religions. It hit me like a ton of bricks recently when I realized there is no Devil or fallen angels. According to the Hebrew Bible, not the altered Christian version of the Old Testament, “satan” is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the “evil inclination” (the yetzer hara) that exists in humans and tempts us to do wrong. The Hebrew word that Christians confuse as being Satan translates to “adversary,” meaning to oppose or obstruct. Search as you will in the Old Testament; Satan did not commit one evil action God did not sanction.

 

God’s adversaries are not fallen angels nor even the gods of other nations but human beings who have no fear of God. (Heavenly beings know better!) It’s not a devil that spreads evil across the face of creation. It is the evil inclination the Jewish God instilled (for reasons impossible to determine) in humanity. As proposed by Christian forgers, the Devil never created evil or disobeyed God’s commands. It turns out that the noun ha’satan (not satan, the adjective!) is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves as the prosecuting attorney in God’s court, the Divine Council (Psalm 82:1), and is not an adversary of God. Only God creates light, peace, and corruption (Isa 45:7). Other than human beings, God has no archrival, nor are there malevolent spiritual forces not under his authority. God is behind the good and the bad, the blessings and the curses. To believe God has a physical archenemy is blasphemy and a commandment breaker! Or so the Jewish Scripture reveals. Trust me; I read that disgusting document at least four times before this truth finally hit me. Even God is called Satan if you compare parallel passages 1Chron 21:1 – “And there standeth up an adversary against Israel, and persuadeth David to number Israel” with 2Sam 24:1 -  “And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.”

 

So, how and when did the mistranslated word “satan” become that mean old Devil we know in Christendom? It turns out that Satan and his band of angels are pure concoctions made “out of whole cloth” by the corrupt Christian church. I was raised to believe God kicked Satan and one-third of all angels out of Heaven sometime before or after Adam’s fall. However, no mention of such an event is recorded in the Old Testament, as it should be if it were the truth. So I naturally wondered how the Devil, rather ha’satan, could appear and speak to God in the Book of Job, having been ejected from Heaven before Adam’s fall. Christians also like to claim that the Eden serpent is Satan! They also imply that Isaiah 14:12 is proof that the evil Devil, Lucifer, is an actual person, God’s number one angel, and was ultimately ousted from God’s presence because he thought himself superior to God. Even the Christian website Got Questions.org admits Satan’s fall from Heaven, symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12–14 and Ezekiel 28:12–18, refers specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, respectively!

 

Without OT Scripture to back them up, Christians claim Satan is a murderer from beginning to end. Has the Devil taken out of the hand of the Almighty the gift of life and death? He has not. Deuteronomy 32:39: “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” So, where does that leave Satan since he can only harm someone when God permits? Is God helpless before the will of his angels? Is there power outside God himself that limits his rule over them? My conclusion is that, from cover to cover, the Old Testament presents God as governing Satan and ALL angels in all they do — no exceptions.

 

I must admit after a childhood of Catholic upbringing and instruction, after twenty-four years as a practicing literalist Christian, and after several thousands of hours of Bible study and research in my 79 years, the information presented here is a shocking discovery that (this month) was made known to me and confirms my opinion and disgust with the Christian faith. There is no eternal torment. There is no reason to be afraid to toss Christianity into the trash bin.

 

The New Testament stands for No Truth! Christianity is a total fabrication. The Church founders bastardized their source material (Jewish bible) to suit their purposes and led humanity down a rabbit hole. Sam Harris once said, “The point is that faith remains the only mode of discourse that encourages grown men and women to pretend to know things they manifestly do not and cannot understand.

 

 

[TABA]

Hi @RichDellaValle, and welcome to the community!  Our backgrounds are similar: I was raised Catholic, became Church of Christ at 29, and deconverted in my 50's.  

 

Did you come to this realization about the fictional nature of Hell and Satan through your own reading of the Scriptures, or did you read the likes of Bart Ehrman's "Heaven and Hell"?  No doubt, the way these concepts evolved through the course of both the Old and New Testaments is plain to see, once the brain-fog of faith is removed.  Ehrman lays it out very well, as do T.J.Wray and Gregory Mobley in "The Birth of Satan". 

 

Although this is not evident in the Bible, since it seems to have happened in the "inter-testamental" period between around 200 BC and the arrival of Christ, Ehrman describes how the concept of a powerful evil figure along the lines of the Christian image of Satan developed in Jewish thinking.  It had become clear that the people of Israel were suffering and being oppressed even when they were faithful to YHWH, despite his promises.  So they came up with a new version of Satan who was somehow being allowed to run rampant and opposing the Lord's will and tormenting his people.  Clearly a loving, all-powerful God would not allow this to continue for long at all, so a Messiah would come and overthrow Satan and Israel's enemies once and for all and establish an earthly kingdom purged of evil and suffering for all time. 

 

Ehrman argues convincingly in various books that the Jesus figure as portrayed in Mark thought he was either the "Son of Man" himself or a precursor to the Messiah.  The earliest-written NT scriptures show that Jesus thought all this would come to pass in his own generation.  When that failed to happen, later writings did damage control, arguing that this utopia would be established, not here on earth in this generation, but in a non-earthly (and therefore unfalsifiable!) realm.  Problem solved, at least for those who to this day have their critical faculties neutered by religious faith and presupposition.  Good to see that you emerged from that padded cell of the mind!

 

Welcome again.  I look forward to hearing more from you in due course!

 

- "TABA"

[♦ Fuego ♦]

6 hours ago, TABA said:

Jesus thought all this would come to pass in his own generation.  When that failed to happen, later writings did damage control, arguing that this utopia would be established, not here on earth in this generation, but in a non-earthly (and therefore unfalsifiable!) realm.  Problem solved

 

I always wondered why believers are so sold on the story that they can reinterpret what even Jesus said to mean something else, and re-write the gospels to mean something different. Then I remember that there is a carrot dangling out there of eternal life in paradise based on faith (even though Jesus seemed to emphasize doing kind things), and those varied directions of belief are each regarded by their adherents as absolute truth, so much so that they "clarified" the gospels by redacting and adding to them. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If the devil ain't real then who the hell went down to Georgia?  @DarkBishop y'all got any idea who it was gave me my golden fiddle?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Congratulations on becoming aware of the biggest superstition in the world!  Packaged and delivered to you by the Catholic church while killing off their competition all through the middle ages.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

19 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If the devil ain't real then who the hell went down to Georgia?  @DarkBishop y'all got any idea who it was gave me my golden fiddle?

Wonder how he conjured that band of demons too!! Either way you won!! Enjoy the golden fiddle. Lol  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:37 AM, RichDellaValle said:

I am 79 years old. I became a Christian in 1977. I became an atheist in 2001.

Welcome to the community @RichDellaValle!! Looks like you have much to offer from your years of experience and study. Hopefully you'll Join us in the Lions Den forum to counter Christian apologetics. From time to time they come by trying to put the shackles of Christ back on us. So far I've never seen one bring an argument that couldn't be countered or refuted. Gods power must of gotten watered down over the years I guess. Go figure. 

 

DB

[RichDellaValle]

I have absolutely no computer savvy. Could you explain to me how to join the Lion Den forum?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I usually post from my phone and not a pc so maybe @TheRedneckProfessor or @TABA can post a couple of screens shots to show you what links to click on a pc. Its just a forum like this one. You should be able to back out of this forum and go to the main discussion screen to look at links to all the other forums. We keep the Christians confined to the lions den. Kinda like Nebucadnezzar did with Daniel

 

DB

[RichDellaValle]

Thanks. I figured it out and actually made a comment to aik.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

53 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I usually post from my phone and not a pc so maybe @TheRedneckProfessor or @TABA can post a couple of screens shots to show you what links to click on a pc. Its just a forum like this one. You should be able to back out of this forum and go to the main discussion screen to look at links to all the other forums. We keep the Christians confined to the lions den. Kinda like Nebucadnezzar did with Daniel

 

DB

You should just be able to click on whichever subforum you want to enter under the Debate Forums heading.  Conversely, you can enter the Debate Forums and then enter the subforums from there.

 

(I know, @DarkBishop, Ms. Professor's image shows up in the screenshots; but how else is the world gonna know how far above my station I married?)

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

34 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I know, @DarkBishop, Ms. Professor's image shows up in the screenshots; but how else is the world gonna know how far above my station I married?)

True! I have to admit. She looks a whole lot better than you I can relate. Ex Mrs. Bishop is in a higher league as well. Lol  

[walterpthefirst]

Hello Rich and welcome to the forum.  

 

First off, well done for researching the scriptures in such a thorough way.  Too many Christians simply accept what they are told and never look at what the bible really says.

 

When it comes to Satan and the fallen angels I was wondering what you think about Jude 9.

 

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

 

I have my own thoughts about why Satan might have been interested in the dead body of Moses, but I'd be interested to hear yours.  And maybe we could compare them?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[RichDellaValle]

Hi Walter.  To be honest I have never taken Jude seriously and never even tried to understand it. I don't believe Moses existed, and I don't believe there was an Exodus either based on a great read -  The Bible Unearthed - by Finkelstein and Silberman; an excellent work of scholarship. Sorry, I can't be of much help there. Moses is a fictitious character based on an Akkadian emperor, Sargon the Great. 

[walterpthefirst]

16 hours ago, RichDellaValle said:

Hi Walter.  To be honest I have never taken Jude seriously and never even tried to understand it. I don't believe Moses existed, and I don't believe there was an Exodus either based on a great read -  The Bible Unearthed - by Finkelstein and Silberman; an excellent work of scholarship. Sorry, I can't be of much help there. Moses is a fictitious character based on an Akkadian emperor, Sargon the Great. 

 

That's not a problem Rich.

 

I also agree that the Exodus most likely never happened.  But returning to Jude, something curious happens here if we allow ourselves to treat the Old and the New Testaments as true, even though they manifestly cannot be.  It all starts by asking the question, why would Satan want to prevent the archangel Michael from taking Moses' body up to heaven?

 

I believe the answer lies in the Transfiguration.  If we suspend our disbelief of this event and also overlook how the three disciples knew that the two glowing figures standing on either side of their glowing teacher were Moses and Elijah (having no visual record of how these two prophets looked) we can look to the OT for help.  We know that Elijah did not die but was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot.  But Moses did die.  And he was buried within sight of the Holy Land.

 

It therefore follows that Elijah could appear in radiant glory next to Jesus.  But Moses was dead and therefore he needed to be brought back to life in his new, glorified flesh so that he could join Jesus and Elijah on that mountain top.  If Satan wanted to damage Jesus' ministry to the disciples then preventing Moses from appearing would certainly be a useful way of doing that.  Elijah was beyond Satan's reach, having been snatched up to heaven while still alive.  But Moses was god's lawgiver and what a coup that would be for Satan if he could deny the archangel Michael the body of Moses!

 

However, we know from Daniel 10: 21 and 12 : 1 that Michael is tasked with protecting the people of Israel.  We also know from Revelation 12 : 7 & 8 that Satan could not prevail against Michael when there was war in heaven.  On the back of this information we can surmise that Satan wanted to stop Michael taking Moses' body, but either feared his power or simply lacked the strength to do so.

 

In the end Moses was raised back to life in his glorified resurrection body, to appear with Jesus and Elijah, in front of Peter, James and John.

 

Ok, all of the above is highly speculative Rich and, as I mentioned before, it also requires that we assume a great many things about scripture as true and reliable, when there's no evidence that they are either.  Anyway, those are my thoughts on the logic behind Satan's dispute with Michael, as described in Jude 9.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

On 5/5/2023 at 2:37 PM, RichDellaValle said:

 

The New Testament stands for No Truth! Christianity is a total fabrication. The Church founders bastardized their source material (Jewish bible) to suit their purposes and led humanity down a rabbit hole. Sam Harris once said, “The point is that faith remains the only mode of discourse that encourages grown men and women to pretend to know things they manifestly do not and cannot understand.

 

 

I agree, Rich.

 

My first discovery of how the writers of the NT perverted the meaning of the OT was Acts 1 : 20, when Peter falsely used a verse from the psalms to "prove" that Judas' death had been prophesied hundreds of years before the birth of Christ.

 

Acts 1 : 20

 

“For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
    let there be no one to dwell in it,’

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’

 

Peter is referring to Psalm 69 : 25, which reads like this.

 

May their place be deserted;
    let there be no one to dwell in their tents.

 

Here King David is referring to the enemies that were troubling him during his own lifetime.  He's also doing it in the plural, not the singular.  So there's no way this can be retrofitted to mean Judas on his own.  Furthermore, David didn't mean that the deserted place was a field of blood, like Akeldama.  No.  He simply meant that wherever his enemies pitched their tents would be deserted.  A totally different thing.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TABA]

I’ve mentioned Bart Ehrman’s book “Heaven and Hell” before, in which he shows how the concepts of Satan and the afterlife evolved and were more or less reinvented by Christianity.  In this episode from his terrific podcast series “Misquoting Jesus”, he talks about how Christian teachings in these areas are quite different from what Jews had long believed.   
 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/am-i-going-to-hell-what-the-new-testament-says-about/id1650657462?i=1000593396897

 

[RichDellaValle]

On 5/8/2023 at 6:09 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

 

In the end Moses was raised back to life in his glorified resurrection body, to appear with Jesus and Elijah, in front of Peter, James and John.

 

Ok, all of the above is highly speculative Rich and, as I mentioned before, it also requires that we assume a great many things about scripture as true and reliable, when there's no evidence that they are either.  Anyway, those are my thoughts on the logic behind Satan's dispute with Michael, as described in Jude 9.

 

 

 

 

Walter.

I agree with that statement 100%. I had a chat with a Christian who told me I lost my right to use scripture since I left the church. Can you believe that? I responded that while I don't believe a damn word of it, HE should, and when you argue with someone, you better know what you are talking about. A delusion cannot be defended. You might find these quotes amusing:

 

Religion is a system of irrational belief and groundless hope.

 

Religion is not the opiate of the masses, it is the placebo of the masses.

 

When a person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.  When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

On 5/10/2023 at 4:47 AM, RichDellaValle said:

I had a chat with a Christian who told me I lost my right to use scripture since I left the church.

 Reminds me of the Star Trek episode where Kirk mentioned "freedom" and a guy responded "Freedom? That is Yang worship word, you will not use it." 

What an absurd thing to say. But believers are caught in an odd shell-game of belief and delayed gratification, and are convinced they will get a huge reward in the end if they will only stay true and not allow the sneaky devil to steal away their super-mega-jackpot prize for being faithful to their imaginary friend and his promises. 

[ShackledNoMore]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:20 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If the devil ain't real then who the hell went down to Georgia?  @DarkBishop y'all got any idea who it was gave me my golden fiddle?

 

On 5/6/2023 at 5:44 PM, DarkBishop said:

Wonder how he conjured that band of demons too!! Either way you won!! Enjoy the golden fiddle. Lol  

 

I could never make any sense of why the devil thought that Johnny played better than he and his band of demons did.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, ShackledNoMore said:

 

 

I could never make any sense of why the devil thought that Johnny played better than he and his band of demons did.

Reckon it was more a battle of wits.

 

Good to see you again, @ShackledNoMore!