HOW DOES THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANITY AFFECT OUR SENSE OF SELF??

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Just before beginning to write this, I did a Google search of the meaning of original sin.  Wikipedia has an excellent explanation of several different "Christian" views.  It is strange how people can come up with the different views of "God's inerrant word".

 

This grew out of Moxieflux66 post, "Do you hate yourself", and a statement she made in her Testimony, about christianity trampling her bliss.  We decided to start a new thread on the subject.  I am sure all of us can name several ways our bliss, enthusiasm, self esteem, and feeling worthwhile got squashed.  I just knew I was bound for Hell because I could not stop the sexual "lusting" for the females around me.  And there were other reasons I felt I simply could not "measure up."  I thought, "there must be something wrong with me".   

 

Then in the study of psychology at a Christian College I learned about healthy human development.  It finally occured to me that the doctrine of original sin appears to undermine healthy human development.  And there appeared to be a conflict between original sin, and Jesus saying to "love your neighbor as yourself".   With original sin my understanding from church teaching was that you were to deny yourself --- Consider yourself to be unworthy, and wholly dependant on God.  There was a church song that implied you were as lowly as a worm. Your salvation was dependant upon keeping God happy, by loving him and bowing down and worshipping him.  Loving yourself would lead to ruin!   

 

 What is going on with these Bible messages?? But that is off subject.

 

Here is some thinking that I believe is valid, about healthy human development through fulfilling basic human needs.  These are, to feel loved.  Wanted.  Belonging.  And to feel worthwhile.   THE MAIN GOAL IS TO HAVE CHILDEN GROW UP TO BE ADULTS WHO FEEL WORTHWHILE.  These needs can only be met through nurturing human relationships!  Getting these needs met as children are vital to healthy growth, and the needs are never completely outgrown.  And when these needs are not met, problems are not far behind!  When people do not feel they belong, and are not worthwhile, they tend to get depressed, and/or began to make demands.  And can be susceptible to empty promises.

 

How does being told you are sinful, incomplete, and can never earn your way into Gods heart, or into heaven, affect your feeling worthwhile??  And to win your way into his heart and into heaven, you must bow down and worship him, be in subjection and give your heart and money to him for the rest of your life??  Is that the way we treat our own children??  Do we make them feel as lowly as worms, as one old church song says?  And make them crawl to us and ask for the forgiveness of a simple wrong doing?  And how does being told the sexual feelings you were born with are sinful, affect your feeling of being worthwhile? 

 

And I could go on and on.

 

Are christian churches and their members helping to produce humans who feel wanted, loved and are worthwhile?  What are your thoughts and experiences along these lines?

 

P.S. And I am left thinking, the Bible seems to have an inconsistant message. 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

7 hours ago, Weezer said:

I just knew I was bound for Hell because I could not stop the sexual "lusting" for the females around me.  And there were other reasons I felt I simply could not "measure up."  I thought, "there must be something wrong with me".   

 

I had this problem too (well, not for females ). I had convinced myself this lust was 'love' and when I 'fell in love' it was ok, when I lusted, it was not. Needless to say.....I was always 'falling in love'. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

7 hours ago, Weezer said:

There was a church song that implied you were as lowly as a worm. Your salvation was dependant upon keeping God happy, by loving him and bowing down and worshipping him.  Loving yourself would lead to ruin!   

 

And how seriously messed up is that?? 

 

7 hours ago, Weezer said:

Is that the way we treat our own children??  Do we make them feel as lowly as worms, as one old church song says?  And make them crawl to us and ask for the forgiveness of a simple wrong doing?  And how does being told the sexual feelings you were born with are sinful, affect your feeling of being worthwhile? 

This is an excellent point. I think my children would outright hate me if I treated them the way god does his own. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, Weezer said:

What is going on with these Bible messages?? But that is off subject.

No sir, I don't think that was off subject at all. It is from the bible that they get these beliefs. One cannot exist without the other. I think you were right on topic. 

 

5 hours ago, Weezer said:

Are christian churches and their members helping to produce humans who feel wanted, loved and are worthwhile?  What are your thoughts and experiences along these lines?

My short answer is no. I've been wanting to get back to posting. There have been some good threads going lately and this combines one I wanted to reply to and expands on the topic. So this seems like the perfect place to start. I want to make sure @moxieflux66 is tagged here so she gets a notification. I really wanted to respond to her post on this but was a bit.. . Under the weather. 

 

I've been reflecting on this very subject for awhile now. I started my own thread awhile back pointing to the emotional hooks that are embedded in Christianity. 

 

Indoctrination is most effective when it begins from a youth. The churches groom the children to later become devote Christians. Giving them the kid versions of stories like Adam and Eve, the flood of Noah, Jesus's life and passion, etc. Then as they grow older they begin to connect these kid versions to the adult versions preached on during services. And things start to click. They are told as youngsters that Jesus provided the way to heaven, Jesus loves them, God loved us so much that he gave Jesus for us so that we could go to heaven. And as far as childhood goes. The love and compassion of God is about all they see. 

 

I think during this transition between the kids Sunday school teachings, the adult Sunday school teachings, and sermons preached during the services. This is when the damage starts to be inflicted. 

 

So as a former minister looking back on the toxic faith that I believed in, supported, and preached. I want to point out some of these scriptures and talk about how I view them now. I wish I could bring them all out but ..... I would have to write a book to do that. And Hell maybe I should. I'd like to remind everyone that I was part of mostly Independent Baptist churches to begin with and later converted to the Holiness Doctrine. So my experiences and views may not reflect those of other Christian denominations. I'm sure there may be liberal churches that didn't expound on these teachings as much as the churches I attended. 

 

So we all know that we have to accept Jesus as Lord and savior to be Christian. He was the sacrifice that was made for our sins. Well why was he made that sacrifice. The Bible said he was the only one worthy. 

 

Revelation 5

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

Here in revelations we see and that the whole earth was searched to find one worthy to open the book. But not one person was found..... except the Holy Lamb of God. The lion of the tribe of Judah. We know him as Jesus. 

 

But that isn't really comparing apples and apples with your OP. This is talking about opening a book in heaven. It makes sense that he would be the only one worthy right? Well. It extends further like you pointed out in those scriptures. 

 

Jesus becomes the focal point of everything. Not only is he the only one worthy to open this book..... ultimately he is really the only one worthy of heaven in God's eyes. 

 

Romans 3

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

This is us, Jews and Gentiles. Everyone. No one is righteous. No one is worthy of Gods heaven. Why? Well it all points back to the myth of Adam and Eve. Original sin. Because of the concept of "original sin" we have all fallen from grace and are unworthy.... except Jesus ofcourse. 

 

Ok, but after we accept Jesus, that he was the only one worthy to save us. Then God loves us right? Well..... no. Not really. He doesn't love you for you. He loves Jesus and his Holy spirit. And now they reside within you. You are expected to change everything about who you once were. Starting with Baptism. Most Christians can say that they know Baptism is the symbolic washing away of your sins. Well there is more to it than that. You are burying who you once were. 

 

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

Galatians 2

 

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

Baptism is a burial. And after this burial Christians are expected to walk in newness of life. This newness of life will be different between denominations. They all have their interpretation of how a Christian should walk. 

 

In my experience the Baptist church wasn't as strict as the holiness churches. As far as I can tell the majority of Churches stress the importance of denying sexual desire. I don't know what it was about sex that these people hated so much. Because.... sex is a very fulfilling part of life. It is through sex that we get to experience and enhance love. To express our willingness to join as one with another human being. It's a wonderful thing in my opinion. But to these ancient people it was something to be avoided. 

 

The bottom line is after salvation a Christian isn't supposed to be themselves anymore. Most of what they liked and enjoyed before salvation is now considered sin. For whatever reason . They are expected to be above that now. And they will tie this to Jesus's own words. 

 

Luke 9

23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

 

Now this is where I would have started to Segway in my sermon and showing how one could lose salvation. There were several reasons I converted to the Holiness church and this was one. Through my studies after answering what I felt was a call to preach. I came across scriptures like this. Picking up the cross daily and following Jesus and not being ashamed or the son would be ashamed. There are many more verses like this that bring out that salvation is an ongoing thing. It isn't a one and done thing. The Bible teaches that if you go outside of christ, even after salvation and Baptism. If you die that way. You'll still go to hell. But that's a subject for another time. It does make denying one's self that much more important in churches that teach that tho. And much more stressful. 

 

But for the subject. Jesus said we are to deny ourselves. In other words Don't be yourself, Daily and follow him. In other scriptures he says not to give thought for what you shall eat. Or what you shall drink. Basically saying to be completely dependent on God and Jesus to provide for you. 

 

Before salvation we are trying to make our way on out own. Afterward we are to let this mythical being guide our way. To depend on it. To pray to it. This whole concept as well is damaging and does not promote self. It doesn't promote independence. And it robs a person of personal satisfaction. Because it is no longer the person that is making these achievements in their minds. But God working through them, doing it for them. They give all the credit and glory to a being that does not even exist. It is sad. And so very toxic. 

 

Continuing on. While it is left up to interpretation like I said. Let's explore the question. How do we do what is expected of us? What does that Intel?

 

 

2 corinthians 5

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

Titus 2

1But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

Don't be yourself and do whatever the bible and your respective church says you need to do to be like Christ and acceptable to God.

 

 

These are toxic teachings and destroy peoples sense of self and self worth. Teaching them that they should deny themselves, bury who they were, not to even live for themselves or their families for that matter, and to live solely unto God. And even that is left up to the interpretation of the church and individual who reads the so-called "word" of God. 

 

I wish I could write more but like I said, to really cover the full scope of this issue I would have to write a book. This mentality and teaching stretches from the beginning of the Bible to end. There are many more verses in the new testament that reflect these toxic beliefs and I didnt even touch the ones in the old testament. The whole premise of the Christian doctrine is to become like the only one that is worthy, because we are not worthy and no one on earth is. 

 

I'll end that here. I have to go run errands and will fix any typos later. I apologize in advance if there are a lot.

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, Weezer said:

I am sure all of us can name several ways our bliss... got squashed.

They say ignorance is bliss; but I wouldn't know.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

There have been some good threads going lately and this combines one I wanted to reply to and expands on the topic. So this seems like the perfect place to start. I want to make sure @moxieflux66 is tagged here so she gets a notification. I really wanted to respond to her post on this but was a bit.. . Under the weather. 

 

Kewl! Thanks! I am way interested in this. Thanks Weez! 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

It isn't a one and done thing. The Bible teaches that if you go outside of christ, even after salvation and Baptism. If you die that way. You'll still go to hell. But that's a subject for another time. It does make denying one's self that much more important in churches that teach that tho. And much more stressful. 

 

Oh really. THAT is a very good topic to expound on. I'd love to see a thread on this. I never heard much about that at all. I guess I would have been classified as a Baptist when it was all said and done. But I don't remember anything like this ever taught in churches I attended. 

[Casualfanboy16]

7 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

But I don't remember anything like this ever taught in churches I attended. 

I wonder why they didn't teach that...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

For me, self-esteem did not really start until I was well into my 40s.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

18 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Oh really. THAT is a very good topic to expound on. I'd love to see a thread on this. I never heard much about that at all. I guess I would have been classified as a Baptist when it was all said and done. But I don't remember anything like this ever taught in churches I attended. 

Well actually that is considered a holiness doctrine. The Baptist don't teach that. I will elaborate on another thread and show the scriptures they use if you would like that. Mayne tomorrow I'll have time to do so. Feels good getting back to my usual Bible Delving scripture refuting self

 

DB 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

These are toxic teachings and destroy peoples sense of self and self worth. Teaching them that they should deny themselves, bury who they were, not to even live for themselves or their families for that matter, and to live solely unto God. And even that is left up to the interpretation of the church and individual who reads the so-called "word" of God. 

 

Thanks for explaining more of what I ran out of time for last night.  I was having a hard time organizing my thoughts and had to rewrite what I wrote several times.  YES!  The narcissistic god of the bible wants us to stop being human beings and become robots for him! 

 

But there is a huge problem with that!  I have known a few people whom were considered almost perfect christians.  Similar to how aik seemed to be.  They were extremely positive, seeing the good in everyone, and smiling through the worst of situations.  God would work it out.  In some cases it was almost as if the situations didn't exist.  But guess what?  They all eventually had mental breakdowns.  They had fragile egos.  A poor sense of self with very poor boundries.  They put up with abuse from others and don't seem to recognize some of what is going on.  One woman even walked in on her husband molesting their 9 year old daughter.  Got the clothes out of a hamper and took them to the utility room for washing, as if nothing was going on in the bedroom.  Her brain had blocked out the experience.  Several days later she was in the mental hospital.  She was delusional and on the way there she was babbling nonsense about bible stories and quoting scripture. This was in the 1950s.  They gave her shock treatments and wiped out part of her memory, and the molestation was never reported.  I don't know that she ever remembered it. That is what becoming a robot for god, or anyone else, can do for you.  How do I know the details of what happened?  It was my 9 year old cousin in that bedroom.  She also had blocked out that memory and many others, but years later fainted in a college class when the conversation had turned to incest.  She was taken to the clinic and a wise counselor started asking her questions.  After a few sessions, the memories came back.  She completed college, got married and had two girls whom she thoroughly educated about what men are capable of, and how to protect themselves.  She told me the story several years later.  

 

Not everyone who becomes a "perfect robot" is religious, but the dynamics are the same.  Through fear you give up yourself, your boundries, your defenses, and become an extension of someone else.  And there are degrees of the condition.  Not everyone has a mental breakdown.  the lesson here?  When your 3 year old throws a tantrum, grin, and say to yourself, "yea!  they are building the defenses they need for healthy living."  But don't let them get their way with the tantrum.  That can lead to narcissism.  If they aren't hurting anything, just let them vent, and when it is over grin and say something like, "well. what did that get you?"

 

 

 

[Casualfanboy16]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Indoctrination is most effective when it begins from a youth. The churches groom the children to later become devote Christians. Giving them the kid versions of stories like Adam and Eve, the flood of Noah, Jesus's life and passion, etc. Then as they grow older they begin to connect these kid versions to the adult versions preached on during services. And things start to click. They are told as youngsters that Jesus provided the way to heaven, Jesus loves them, God loved us so much that he gave Jesus for us so that we could go to heaven. And as far as childhood goes. The love and compassion of God is about all they see. 

 

I think during this transition between the kids Sunday school teachings, the adult Sunday school teachings, and sermons preached during the services. This is when the damage starts to be inflicted. 

I can attest to this! As someone who grew up in Christianity all my life, and I assume most people here have, it really is effective when it first begins at youth. I was brought up in a Christian school all the way from PreK-12th grade. As kids we did get those watered-down, kiddie versions of Bible stories like Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve, and all of that.

 

I still see it today, because my job is Christian owned. We have a book rack up front and I see these books on Noah's Ark and stuff all the time. I had a few people come and buy some of those books today. I feel bad for these kids that I see in line with them. They're gonna grow up being taught this. The parents are buying this shit, unknowingly going to cause damage to their children down the road wether they end up staying within the confines of Christianity, or they get lucky and begin to deconstruct.

 

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

I want to point out some of these scriptures and talk about how I view them now. I wish I could bring them all out but ..... I would have to write a book to do that. And Hell maybe I should.

Oh yes, please write a book!! I would buy a copy!! I know you might not actually do it, but I am pleading, begging you right now please do it. I would buy! I'm not even joking. How many organs would I have to sell on the dark web to make this happen???

 

Okay, that last part was a joke... Unless...

 

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Baptism is a burial. And after this burial Christians are expected to walk in newness of life. This newness of life will be different between denominations. They all have their interpretation of how a Christian should walk. 

 

In my experience the Baptist church wasn't as strict as the holiness churches. As far as I can tell the majority of Churches stress the importance of denying sexual desire. I don't know what it was about sex that these people hated so much. Because.... sex is a very fulfilling part of life. It is through sex that we get to experience and enhance love. To express our willingness to join as one with another human being. It's a wonderful thing in my opinion. But to these ancient people it was something to be avoided. 

This was all well said!! Christianity (especially the more fundamentalist sects) just really love controlling people to the point that control extends to sexual desire. And as someone who's gay, that idea was made extra difficult.

 

While heterosexuals under Christianity were typically expected to not have sex until marriage. Me, being gay, made this whole ordeal even worse because my sexuality was considered an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. I wasn't allowed in the kingdom of Heaven. It wasn't natural, or holy, or whatever. I was expected to bury myself for the rest of my life until the day I died. While all the heterosexuals were off falling in love, dating, getting married, having sex, etc. I was supposed to deny myself completely. Why?

 

When I was in the closet, I tried to do a lot of that denying of myself stuff. You can probably guess how that turned out lol. I would try to force myself to look at pictures and videos of naked women in order to "fix" my sexuality. It didn't really help, but instead fuelled my intrusive thoughts that I still am affected by to this day. Mindfulness has been a big help thus far though. There is also this underlying sense of self-hatred, which I guess I struggled with for a while now for a variety of reasons (perfectionism being the big one), but that was only made worse when I began to realize that I wasn't straight. I didn't have any desire to be with a woman romantically or sexually; and deep down, I was ashamed of myself. That shame began to build up and morph into this severe self-hatred and inward bitterness. Being gay was sinful and bad, so I was sinful and bad.

 

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

But for the subject. Jesus said we are to deny ourselves. In other words Don't be yourself, Daily and follow him. In other scriptures he says not to give thought for what you shall eat. Or what you shall drink. Basically saying to be completely dependent on God and Jesus to provide for you. 

 

Before salvation we are trying to make our way on out own. Afterward we are to let this mythical being guide our way. To depend on it. To pray to it. This whole concept as well is damaging and does not promote self. It doesn't promote independence. And it robs a person of personal satisfaction. Because it is no longer the person that is making these achievements in their minds. But God working through them, doing it for them. They give all the credit and glory to a being that does not even exist. It is sad. And so very toxic. 

Reading this segment, I already realized most of this, but you put it into better words than I could've. I know Weezer has worried about me having codependent behaviors in the past, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Bible is where I picked some of these things up. Oh, and also my parents and school/church environment, but y'know.

 

That last sentence about giving God glory for our own personal achievements is also why I believe I struggle seeing my own accomplishments so much. It was never me. I was always God working through me or God providing opportunities or opening doors. Never my own efforts, according to the Bible and such. You're right. It is very damaging and toxic.

 

To end this off, I must say reading that was very wonderful, impactful, and really helped put into words how I feel about Christianity making my sense of self plummet off a step cliff essentially. I would describe it better than that, but I think I'm running out of juice to write at the moment lmao. I related to a lot of it, as you can see.

 

I am also hoping you're feeling better because you said you were under the weather. Sending a hug your way because you deserve millions upon billions of hugs!! 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@Weezer

 

On a more personal note. Believing and teaching these doctrines. Committing them to my soul and being had its effect on me. Years I spent in wonder because Jesus loved this unworthy person so much that he would give himself freely to die. That I could live with him eternally. We commonly referred to ourselves as Wretched sinners saved by grace. Completely condemning ourselves as being worth anything more than the firey pits of hell. 

 

This has held over some, giving me other self worth issues. Even now I'm trying to get past making fun of myself to make others laugh. Such as jokes about my weight or looks in general. For years I thought I deserved my first wife cheating on me. I thought it was Just because of some sin committed in the past when I was happily fornication with various women in my youth. 

 

But when my third wife did it I considered it unfair and became angry with God and part of that Fire I had once before was quenched. I knew I had done nothing to warrant such an thing not once but twice. But then I remembered. I had prayed to be tried like Job once. Maybe this was his way of answering that prayer in some sick twisted way? Why would anyone pray to be tried like job anyway? I have no idea. Hell his kids even got killed. But I had it in my head that God would lay no greater burden than I could bare. 

 

 

That is a lie ofcourse. My grandmother lost 4 out of 5 children. Her husband beat and cheated on her. Two of her children took advantage of her and one still does. The only decent one died of a heart attack about two years after my sperm donor died. 

 

She had to be committed into a hospital a few times because of mental breakdowns through all she endured. 

 

That would have to be the very definition of having to much put on someone to bare. 

 

So now I'm beginning to deal with my issues and seek therapy. One reason I've put up with my most recent ex so long is probably because of feeling unworthy of something better. To fat for someone better. Or maybe that it's me and not them. 

 

I can't say that these toxic teaching aren't responsible for these issues I have now. I've put up with more than most sane people would. 

 

DB

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

For me, self-esteem did not really start until I was well into my 40s.

 

 

Don't say beer, say 'bull'!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@Weezer

 

On a more personal note. Believing and teaching these doctrines. Committing them to my soul and being had its effect on me. Years I spent in wonder because Jesus loved this unworthy person so much that he would give himself freely to die. That I could live with him eternally. We commonly referred to ourselves as Wretched sinners saved by grace. Completely condemning ourselves as being worth anything more than the firey pits of hell. 

 

I am glad you are getting into therapy to sort out what was happening in that situation.  The religious beliefs certainly were not helping you feel more worthwhile!

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

7 hours ago, Weezer said:

But there is a huge problem with that!  I have known a few people whom were considered almost perfect christians.  Similar to how aik seemed to be.  They were extremely positive, seeing the good in everyone, and smiling through the worst of situations.  God would work it out.  In some cases it was almost as if the situations didn't exist.  But guess what?  They all eventually had mental breakdowns.  They had fragile egos.  A poor sense of self with very poor boundries.  They put up with abuse from others and don't seem to recognize some of what is going on.  One woman even walked in on her husband molesting their 9 year old daughter.  Got the clothes out of a hamper and took them to the utility room for washing, as if nothing was going on in the bedroom.  Her brain had blocked out the experience.  Several days later she was in the mental hospital.  She was delusional and on the way there she was babbling nonsense about bible stories and quoting scripture. This was in the 1950s.  They gave her shock treatments and wiped out part of her memory, and the molestation was never reported.  I don't know that she ever remembered it. That is what becoming a robot for god, or anyone else, can do for you.  How do I know the details of what happened?  It was my 9 year old cousin in that bedroom.  She also had blocked out that memory and many others, but years later fainted in a college class when the conversation had turned to incest.  She was taken to the clinic and a wise counselor started asking her questions.  After a few sessions, the memories came back.  She completed college, got married and had two girls whom she thoroughly educated about what men are capable of, and how to protect themselves.  She told me the story several years later.  

 

This is appalling. The church asks people to proselytize, basically amounting to antagonizing people into being cruel to them. It's so much worse than I ever knew. Since being on this site I came to realize how easy I had it compared to others. It just makes all this so much more important to reach people with. 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Perhaps Weezer can comment on my line of thought here?

 

I'm no expert on matters psychological and I therefore defer to his expertise.  But here is my thinking on the matter.

 

The relationship between true believers and the god of the bible very much reminds me of the dysfunctional relationship between a domineering, controlling and abusive husband and his submissive and subjugated battered wife.  Three hallmark behaviours seem to me to be evident, which I will list in no particular order.

 

*  The Husband's use of Threat and Reward to Control the Wife

The threats and rewards in this case are both ongoing and future.  Ongoing, day-to-day threats and rewards written in the bible go something like this.  God/the husband    says, if you don't do this (insert required behaviour) then I will punish you during your lifetime.  He then says, but if you do this (obey me) then I will reward you during your  lifetime.   There are numerous examples in the bible of this kind of threat and reward coercion being inflicted by god on whole nations, cities, families and individuals.    

 

The ultimate future-based threats and rewards are heaven and hell.  The fundamental difference between the husband/wife example and the god/believer example is  essentially one of scale.  On Earth there is the possibility that the wife could escape the malign influence of the husband, either by leaving him, being removed by a third party or by being killed.  But the god/believer relationship has no such limits and no escape options at all.  God is all powerful and all knowing.  There is nowhere to escape to.  There is no privacy even in your own mind because he already knows what you thinking, before the though came into your head.  Nor is death an avenue of escape.  An eternity of nightmarish suffering awaits those who disobey and the only 'escape' is in complete submission to the will of he who holds all the cards - god.

 

*   The Repeated Cycle of Condemnation and Forgiveness

Battered wives will often forgive their 'loving' husbands for the violence meted out against them.  They sometimes rationalize that they are  such bad wives that they deserve what their husbands do to them.  If this dysfunctional mindset is not already in place it can often be put in place by the husband  through badgering, hectoring, lecturing and emotional coercion, all done by the 'good' husband for the bad wife's own 'good'.  

 

Even when the wife leaves the family home she will sometimes return to face the husband's condemnation and 'forgiveness'.  The first will be a continuation of what  caused her to leave in the first place - violence; both physical, mental and emotional.  The second will usually be conditional on her admitting fault (confessing sin) and also conditional on her future obedience. 

 

If there is such thing as truly unconditional forgiveness in the husband/wife scenario there is no such thing as truly unconditional forgiveness in the god/believer scenario.  In biblical Christianity god does NOT unconditionally forgive sinners.  You MUST accept his terms and conditions on pain of everlasting hellfire.  Negotiation and compromise are not in god's playbook.  Turn or burn!

 

*   Actively Destroying/Degrading the Self Image

In both scenarios the self image and self worth of the wife/believer is actively destroyed and/or degraded by the husband/god.  In Christianity the natural self worth of a person must be 'broken' by forcing them to realize that they are sinful, bad, wrong, at fault, in error, to blame, disobedient and dirty.  Once this is achieved the next step is to force them to abase themselves and beg for mercy.   When that is done they must then be kept in a state of joyful submission and glad servitude.  This devious piece of mindfuckery depends upon a mixture of ongoing overt and covert emotional manipulation, as described above.

 

 

Ok, so I could be overreaching myself here.  I'm not sure.   But a question that I would like to put to Weezer and to everyone else here follows below.

 

I believe that a key factor here is blame.  If a battered wife can be shown that she has nothing to blame herself for and nothing to be ashamed of, then perhaps she can begin her road back to the recovery of her self-worth and a more positive self-image.  In a similar way, if people trying to exit Christianity can be shown that they have nothing to blame themselves for and nothing to be ashamed of, they too can begin to heal from the harm Christianity has done to them

     

So my question is this.

 

Is the apportioning and emphasis on blame in Christianity where we should be focusing our efforts when it comes to help people deconvert?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

I believe that a key factor here is blame.  If a battered wife can be shown that she has nothing to blame herself for and nothing to be ashamed of, then perhaps she can begin her road back to the recovery of her self-worth and a more positive self-image.  In a similar way, if people trying to exit Christianity can be shown that they have nothing to blame themselves for and nothing to be ashamed, they too can begin to heal from the harm Christianity has done to them

 

You are utterly and completely correct in my book. And thank you for this entire line of thought. I couldn't have said it better, having similar experiences personally, both with chrisitanity and my personal life. Thank you. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Is the apportioning and emphasis on blame in Christianity where we should be focusing our efforts when it comes to help people deconvert?

 

I think it is at least one avenue. And a great place to start with women  especially. Blame is so powerful a weapon it can't be ignored. 

[walterpthefirst]

58 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

I think it is at least one avenue. And a great place to start with women  especially. Blame is so powerful a weapon it can't be ignored. 

 

You are utterly and completely correct in my book. And thank you for this entire line of thought. I couldn't have said it better, having similar experiences personally, both with chrisitanity and my personal life. Thank you. 

 

 

Thank you Moxie.

 

I have my own thoughts about Christianity, blame and the healing process. 

 

However, I would value Weezer's input and response to what I've written. 

 

That's not to downplay or disagree with your comments, btw.  

 

I hope that he will respond.

 

 

Thanks,

 

walter.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

28 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

You are utterly and completely correct in my book. And thank you for this entire line of thought. I couldn't have said it better, having similar experiences personally, both with chrisitanity and my personal life. Thank you. 

 

 

Thank you Moxie.

 

I have my own thoughts about Christianity, blame and the healing process. 

 

However, I would value Weezer's input and response to what I've written. 

 

That's not to downplay or disagree with your comments, btw.  

 

I hope that he will respond.

 

 

Thanks,

 

walter.

Not at all, Walter. I look to him for his professional take always and respect his kind counsel. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

If a battered wife can be shown that she has nothing to blame herself for and nothing to be ashamed of, then perhaps she can begin her road back to the recovery of her self-worth and a more positive self-image.  In a similar way, if people trying to exit Christianity can be shown that they have nothing to blame themselves for and nothing to be ashamed of, they too can begin to heal from the harm Christianity has done to them

     

So my question is this.

 

Is the apportioning and emphasis on blame in Christianity where we should be focusing our efforts when it comes to help people deconvert

 

You did a beautiful job of describing what goes on in abusive relationships, and yes the domestic stuff is very similar to the Abrahamic god.  But I have trouble with the blame part.  In many domestic situations I have seen, the wife is not completey inocent and without blame.  She is NOT always the sweet innocent little woman, and at times even prods her husband knowing that he will hit her again.  And none of us are perfect and without blame, and will never be perfect and without blame.  So I don't believe tagging the blame on anyone is the answer to the problem.  How can you tag the blame on a god that does not exist?  You can blame it on the man made concept of god if you want to.  But just realizing it was all a hoax is needed.  And expressing anger about the hoax in religioin, and the abuse in the family is appropriate.  I just don't find the concept of blame as being the best approach. 

 

I am having a hard time processing this.  I hope what I have said is helpful.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Walter, I can't quite explain it, but I am still wrestling with the blame concept.  If a battered woman was going to place the blame for her abuse by her husband somewhere, she could also lay it at the feet of why she was so naive to get into the relationship in the first place.  was she abused by her father?  Was she as a child led to believe she deserved the treament?  The blame could go to a lot of places.  

 

And then, the difference in the way blame is used in the UK as opposed to the USA could be at play here.  But, no big deal.  Overall what you wrote was spot on!

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

14 hours ago, Weezer said:

Is the apportioning and emphasis on blame in Christianity where we should be focusing our efforts when it comes to help people deconvert

 

 

14 hours ago, Weezer said:

So I don't believe tagging the blame on anyone is the answer to the problem.  How can you tag the blame on a god that does not exist?  You can blame it on the man made concept of god if you want to.  But just realizing it was all a hoax i

I think you are both on the right track. I am fuzzy on how we can do this effectively. 

 

12 hours ago, Weezer said:

she could also lay it at the feet of why she was so naive to get into the relationship in the first place.  was she abused by her father?  Was she as a child led to believe she deserved the treament?  The blame could go to a lot of places.  

 

And then, the difference in the way blame is used in the UK as opposed to the USA could be at play here.  But, no big deal.  Overall what you wrote was spot on!

This stuff all goes pretty deep. And Weezer is right. A woman MAY NOT BE AWARE she's continuing the cycle of abuse. She may think her husband is far better and nothing like her abusive father. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Where placing blame is concerned, I think the healthiest approach is to remember the words of the Buddha:

 

He who blames others has not yet begun the journey. 

He who blames himself is halfway there. 

He who blames no one has arrived. 

 

Things happen.  Rather than assessing who may be at fault, I feel it is more constructive to focus on what happened and how to fix it.  Like a doctor setting a broken bone without worrying over whose fault it was it got broken.  

 

There are other schools of thought, though.