HOW DOES THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANITY AFFECT OUR SENSE OF SELF??

[webmdave]

“People are not disturbed by things themselves, but by the views they take of those things. People who are ignorant of philosophy blame others for their misfortunes. Those who are beginning to learn philosophy blame themselves. Those who have mastered philosophy blame no one.”

― Epictetus, The Manual: A Philosopher’s Guide To Life

[walterpthefirst]

16 hours ago, Weezer said:

You did a beautiful job of describing what goes on in abusive relationships, and yes the domestic stuff is very similar to the Abrahamic god.  But I have trouble with the blame part.  In many domestic situations I have seen, the wife is not completey inocent and without blame.  She is NOT always the sweet innocent little woman, and at times even prods her husband knowing that he will hit her again.  And none of us are perfect and without blame, and will never be perfect and without blame.  So I don't believe tagging the blame on anyone is the answer to the problem.  How can you tag the blame on a god that does not exist?  You can blame it on the man made concept of god if you want to.  But just realizing it was all a hoax is needed.  And expressing anger about the hoax in religioin, and the abuse in the family is appropriate.  I just don't find the concept of blame as being the best approach. 

 

I am having a hard time processing this.  I hope what I have said is helpful.

 

I'd like to thank you on two counts, Weezer.

 

First for giving my input such serious consideration and secondly for responding with your considered  and helpful  thoughts.  Thank you.

 

 

I'd like two say two further things about the issue of blame.  First, your point about nobody being completely innocent is well made and well taken.  If it seemed that I was making the abused wife/abused believer to be an innocent party in this dynamic, then that was not my real intention.  Of course nobody is completely innocent.  After all, as sceptics we should try to be as realistic about the world as we can, right?   It's the religionists who deal in fairy tales, superstition and wishful thinking, not us.

 

This point about realism and the real world brings me nicely round to the second thing about blame that I'd like to discuss.  In your reply you quite rightly pointed out that god does not exist and so cannot be tagged with any blame.  And perhaps the man-made concept of god could be tagged with blame.  But I submit that there are very real Agents of blame in the real world and in the lives of Christians and so it is these very real threats to a person's self-esteem that must be dealt with and combatted.

 

So what or who do I mean by the term, 'Agents of Blame'?  Once I begin to list them all will become clear.  Therefore, in no particular order...

 

 

The Bible

This is the fountainhead and ultimate source of blame for all Christians.  In it Christians are repeated told that they are disobedient sinners who cannot live blameless lives.  They are told that from birth they carry around inside them, imprinted into their very DNA, the blame that god laid upon Adam and Eve.  That they cannot escape this by their own efforts and even the good deeds that they do in their lives are as filthy rags in the eyes of god. (Isaiah 64:6) The bible is a corrosive acid that eats away at a person's self-worth or is perhaps a slow-acting poison that true believers are exhorted to drink every day.  The more people read it, the more their self-esteem suffers. How many times have desperately scared people come to this forum trying to escape the nightmares of hellfire that were planted in their minds by the bible?  Too many!  That is why Weezer, I refer to the bible as an Agent of Blame.  Unlike an invisible and intangible god it is a very real force for evil and cause of suffering in people's lives.

 

The Organized Church

At the top of the these standings is, of course, the Roman Catholic church.  For centuries they have been the masters of organized blame-apportioning.  They even have daily practices (confession & absolution) that are designed to keep their followers in a junkie-like dependence on the priests, for fear of eternal torment in hell.  But many other churches use similar practices to keep their congregations feeling shamed, guilty and unworthy.  Any church organization can lay blame at the door of it's followers by referring to sin and sinfulness and how nobody is exempt from it.  Obviously the bible is used to do this, but here I am drawing a difference between the bible itself and the many different churches that exist.  The bible on its own is a very powerful agent of blame because any Christian can read it for themselves.  But when a church organization takes up the bible as its authority and justification, then the combined might of bible and church can have a very serious emotional and mental impact on Christians.  We have also seem ample evidence of that, here in this forum, with the anguished pleas for help and extimonies of many needlessly distressed people.

 

Family and Fellow Believers

Weezer I'm sure that I don't have to spell out to you just how toxic the effects of Christianity can be in a family setting.  Jesus said not to judge, lest by the measure you judge you will be judged yourself.  However, from what we've seen and read in Ex-C we know that family members are all too ready to judge, condemn and blame their siblings, sons and daughters and other close relatives for perceived or real sins.  As such they are exceptionally effective agents of blame, seriously affecting the self-esteem of those they judge and condemn.  The stakes are especially high in a family dynamic because, where it is easier to stop going to a certain church it is not so easy to sever one's ties of blood.  The emotional cost of doing so can very destructive.

 

 

I hope that I have made a good case for the real-world existence of these Christian agents of blame, Weezer.  If I was unclear earlier in this thread about the issue of blame, then I'm sorry about that.  I suppose that what I am trying to say is this.

 

If we can help people to understand that they have nothing to blame themselves for, nothing to be ashamed about and nothing to feel guilty about, then this might go a long way to help heal them of the scars inflicted upon them by these agents of blame.  Yes, god is not real.  But the bible, the church and the family are.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

12 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I'd like to thank you on two counts, Weezer.

 

First for giving my input such serious consideration and secondly for responding with your considered  and helpful  thoughts.  Thank you.

 

 

I'd like two say two further things about the issue of blame.  First, your point about nobody being completely innocent is well made and well taken.  If it seemed that I was making the abused wife/abused believer to be an innocent party in this dynamic, then that was not my real intention.  Of course nobody is completely innocent.  After all, as sceptics we should try to be as realistic about the world as we can, right?   It's the religionists who deal in fairy tales, superstition and wishful thinking, not us.

 

This point about realism and the real world brings me nicely round to the second thing about blame that I'd like to discuss.  In your reply you quite rightly pointed out that god does not exist and so cannot be tagged with any blame.  And perhaps the man-made concept of god could be tagged with blame.  But I submit that there are very real Agents of blame in the real world and in the lives of Christians and so it is these very real threats to a person's self-esteem that must be dealt with and combatted.

 

So what or who do I mean by the term, 'Agents of Blame'?  Once I begin to list them all will become clear.  Therefore, in no particular order...

 

 

The Bible

This is the fountainhead and ultimate source of blame for all Christians.  In it Christians are repeated told that they are disobedient sinners who cannot live blameless lives.  They are told that from birth they carry around inside them, imprinted into their very DNA, the blame that god laid upon Adam and Eve.  That they cannot escape this by their own efforts and even the good deeds that they do in their lives are as filthy rags in the eyes of god. (Isaiah 64:6) The bible is a corrosive acid that eats away at a person's self-worth or is perhaps a slow-acting poison that true believers are exhorted to drink every day.  The more people read it, the more their self-esteem suffers. How many times have desperately scared people come to this forum trying to escape the nightmares of hellfire that were planted in their minds by the bible?  Too many!  That is why Weezer, I refer to the bible as an Agent of Blame.  Unlike an invisible and intangible god it is a very real force for evil and cause of suffering in people's lives.

 

The Organized Church

At the top of the these standings is, of course, the Roman Catholic church.  For centuries they have been the masters of organized blame-apportioning.  They even have daily practices (confession & absolution) that are designed to keep their followers in a junkie-like dependence on the priests, for fear of eternal torment in hell.  But many other churches use similar practices to keep their congregations feeling shamed, guilty and unworthy.  Any church organization can lay blame at the door of it's followers by referring to sin and sinfulness and how nobody is exempt from it.  Obviously the bible is used to do this, but here I am drawing a difference between the bible itself and the many different churches that exist.  The bible on its own is a very powerful agent of blame because any Christian can read it for themselves.  But when a church organization takes up the bible as its authority and justification, then the combined might of bible and church can have a very serious emotional and mental impact on Christians.  We have also seem ample evidence of that, here in this forum, with the anguished pleas for help and extimonies of many needlessly distressed people.

 

Family and Fellow Believers

Weezer I'm sure that I don't have to spell out to you just how toxic the effects of Christianity can be in a family setting.  Jesus said not to judge, lest by the measure you judge you will be judged yourself.  However, from what we've seen and read in Ex-C we know that family members are all too ready to judge, condemn and blame their siblings, sons and daughters and other close relatives for perceived or real sins.  As such they are exceptionally effective agents of blame, seriously affecting the self-esteem of those they judge and condemn.  The stakes are especially high in a family dynamic because, where it is easier to stop going to a certain church it is not so easy to sever one's ties of blood.  The emotional cost of doing so can very destructive.

 

 

I hope that I have made a good case for the real-world existence of these Christian agents of blame, Weezer.  If I was unclear earlier in this thread about the issue of blame, then I'm sorry about that.  I suppose that what I am trying to say is this.

 

If we can help people to understand that they have nothing to blame themselves for, nothing to be ashamed about and nothing to feel guilty about, then this might go a long way to help heal them of the scars inflicted upon them by these agents of blame.  Yes, god is not real.  But the bible, the church and the family are.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

All excellent points. I agree. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

If we can help people to understand that they have nothing to blame themselves for, nothing to be ashamed about and nothing to feel guilty about, then this might go a long way to help heal them of the scars inflicted upon them by these agents of blame. 

 

I see your point, but do you know anyone who has never done anything to feel ashamed about, or feel guilty about?  Perhaps it is just me, but I have a problem with using the word blame as you are doing here.  And presenting the absolutist thinking as you did in the statement above.  I am just saying I think there are better ways to approach the subject.  I do not believe placing blame all on one side of an issue is the best way to solve problems in the real world.  That is legalistic, all or non thinking.  It goes on in court rooms every day.  But perhaps there are better ways to approach problems in the everyday world??  And I do NOT want to get into a nit picking, hair splitting, argument about who has the absolute best way, as often goes on here.

 

 

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I wrote an article for the main blog about 14 years ago titled "The God of Abuse". That link is long gone, but click on the title to go to the text of the article. 

 

As others have noted here, the bible conditions us into thinking that we are stuck in a world where a bloodthirsty emotionally volatile guy is in charge of reality. Even your best is shit to him, and he lets you know that. On one hand he blesses genocide and mass rape, on the other he slaughters his own people for not loving him enough. But he wants us to see it all as good, and strong believers are keen to die to even their own opinions so they can finally please him. That is the role of an abuser and how he wants his targets to feel.

 

As Weezer pointed out in the original post, normal desires are turned into something bad so the church can exercise control over you through guilt and public shame. The goal of the church was never to make you feel good about yourself and to produce good humans, but to replicate a belief and to see those that lead the faith as "men of God" to be obeyed. Self is something to crucify (slow painful death), even your own thoughts are not to be trusted.

 

Contrast that with raising healthy kids, encouraging your spouse as an equal, learning about and understanding the world instead of imagining an invisible war of invisible friends and enemies, being kind as default, not being a dick, recognizing normal human desires for sex as NORMAL, personal responsibility for choices, not expecting a god to provide but learning and getting work to provide for yourself (something I resisted because I had magic thinking and actually believed Jesus about the birds of the air). Christianity often sells itself as love in a cold world, and packages fuzzy images of Noah's ark while ignoring the corpses of children floating in the water outside. Marketing at its best. But we've lived through the whole adult version of it and seen it for what it is. But the programming takes time to override. There are days I feel like I need a firmware upgrade (very lowest level programming). We now have hope. 

 

 

 

[webmdave]

10 hours ago, Fuego said:

I wrote an article for the main blog about 14 years ago titled "The God of Abuse". That link is long gone,

 

Here is the link:

 

https://articles.exchristian.net/2009/07/god-of-abuse.html

 

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

6 minutes ago, webmdave said:

Here is the link:

Thanks!

 

[walterpthefirst]

14 hours ago, Weezer said:

I see your point, but do you know anyone who has never done anything to feel ashamed about, or feel guilty about?  Perhaps it is just me, but I have a problem with using the word blame as you are doing here.  And presenting the absolutist thinking as you did in the statement above.  I am just saying I think there are better ways to approach the subject.  I do not believe placing blame all on one side of an issue is the best way to solve problems in the real world.  That is legalistic, all or non thinking.  It goes on in court rooms every day.  But perhaps there are better ways to approach problems in the everyday world??  And I do NOT want to get into a nit picking, hair splitting, argument about who has the absolute best way, as often goes on here.

 

 

 

 

Well, what if it could be demonstrated from scripture that god is to blame for causing Adam and Eve and all their descendants (us) to disobey him?

 

Would that not help many people to see that they have nothing to be ashamed about or to feel guilty about?

 

After all, the bible is the prime source of all Christian shame and guilt, with church and family taking their cue from from it's pages.

 

If I discovered that I had been  caused  to be disobedient then I would very soon realize that I could not be held responsible that disobedience.

 

That I had nothing to feel guilty about or to be ashamed of.

 

But that the person who caused me to be disobedient was, in fact, the one who had done wrong.

 

The one who had done  ME  wrong.

 

And scripture clearly tells us that god did this to us.

 

He is the trickster, the malefactor, the evil doer here.

 

 

Anyway, if you think this is a non-starter Weezer, then so be it.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

That I had nothing to feel guilty about or to be ashamed of.

 

But that the person who caused me to be disobedient was, in fact, the one who had done wrong.

I don't think this effects most Christian Walter. They either deny it. Or take the stance that well its God..... what ya gonna do if he did? 

 

Basically for Christians God gets off the hook no matter what. We can see that the only way the omni God of today's Christians would have let this happen is if he intended for it to happen or even willed it to happen like he did Pharoah. 

 

But in the end just like Pharoah. Who was the one that did wrong according to the bible? Pharoah who was going to let the isrealites go until his heart was hardened by God. Or God who hardened his heart? 

 

Christians say Pharoah. We say Evil God just wanted to kill a bunch of first born kids. 

 

Who was at fault in the Garden? Adam who was left alone by god with an almost as powerful angel to beguile him? Or God who let it all happen knowing it would cause the whole downfall of humanity?

 

Again, Christians, it's Adam and eves fault. While we would say it's God's fault.

 

It's amazing the gymnastics the Christian mind must go through to accept all of these things and perpetually lay the blame on those that God neglects and forces to sin.

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

14 hours ago, Fuego said:

I wrote an article for the main blog about 14 years ago titled "The God of Abuse". That link is long gone, but click on the title to go to the text of the article. 

 

As others have noted here, the bible conditions us into thinking that we are stuck in a world where a bloodthirsty emotionally volatile guy is in charge of reality. Even your best is shit to him, and he lets you know that. On one hand he blesses genocide and mass rape, on the other he slaughters his own people for not loving him enough. But he wants us to see it all as good, and strong believers are keen to die to even their own opinions so they can finally please him. That is the role of an abuser and how he wants his targets to feel.

 

As Weezer pointed out in the original post, normal desires are turned into something bad so the church can exercise control over you through guilt and public shame. The goal of the church was never to make you feel good about yourself and to produce good humans, but to replicate a belief and to see those that lead the faith as "men of God" to be obeyed. Self is something to crucify (slow painful death), even your own thoughts are not to be trusted.

 

Contrast that with raising healthy kids, encouraging your spouse as an equal, learning about and understanding the world instead of imagining an invisible war of invisible friends and enemies, being kind as default, not being a dick, recognizing normal human desires for sex as NORMAL, personal responsibility for choices, not expecting a god to provide but learning and getting work to provide for yourself (something I resisted because I had magic thinking and actually believed Jesus about the birds of the air). Christianity often sells itself as love in a cold world, and packages fuzzy images of Noah's ark while ignoring the corpses of children floating in the water outside. Marketing at its best. But we've lived through the whole adult version of it and seen it for what it is. But the programming takes time to override. There are days I feel like I need a firmware upgrade (very lowest level programming). We now have hope. 

 

 

 

Wow! I read your article Feugo and you get a standing ovation!!! Bravo!!! Bravo!!! That was a great post for the main blog for sure. I can tell you put some serious time and thought into that and it is all so true. I wish those on the inside could see it. I really do! But like you Said. We can see it because we are on the outside looking in now. 

 

But for the Christian

Every calamity in life - Praise God

Every promise broken- God is great

Every tear that falls- God is good

Every time they are made to feel unworthy. God loves me. 

 

Such a good article. I loved it. And I'm going to go back to it later and read along again with my bible and look at those references to the abusive relationship saying. 

 

That was probably my favorite part. You really drove the point home there. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I don't think this effects most Christian Walter. They either deny it. Or take the stance that well its God..... what ya gonna do if he did? 

 

Basically for Christians God gets off the hook no matter what. We can see that the only way the omni God of today's Christians would have let this happen is if he intended for it to happen or even willed it to happen like he did Pharoah. 

 

But in the end just like Pharoah. Who was the one that did wrong according to the bible? Pharoah who was going to let the isrealites go until his heart was hardened by God. Or God who hardened his heart? 

 

Christians say Pharoah. We say Evil God just wanted to kill a bunch of first born kids. 

 

Who was at fault in the Garden? Adam who was left alone by god with an almost as powerful angel to beguile him? Or God who let it all happen knowing it would cause the whole downfall of humanity?

 

Again, Christians, it's Adam and eves fault. While we would say it's God's fault.

 

It's amazing the gymnastics the Christian mind must go through to accept all of these things and perpetually lay the blame on those that God neglects and forces to sin.

 

DB

 

But scripture tells us that it wasn't a case of god letting knowing that something bad was going to happen in Eden and doing nothing to stop it, DB.

 

It was MUCH worse than that.  God wanted his creation to be overthrown and defiled by sin, death and decay and he set up Adam as the patsy he could blame for it.  This is not god being negligent or careless about anything.  Nor about him being derelict in his duty of care to his two newly-created children.  The apostle Paul clearly explains in the book of Romans that it was god's will and purpose from (before) the start to ruin everything so that he could restore everything as Jesus and get the praise for it.  let's have a look and see, shall we?

 

Romans 8 : 18 - 21

 

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

The creation was subject to frustration (or futility in some translations) not by its own choice.  Since Adam, Eve and the serpent were part of creation it was not their choice to subject to it frustration.  That only leaves one possibility.  Creation was subjected by the will of one who was not part of creation.  Someone who predated creation.  And that can only be god.  Not Adam.  Not Eve.  Not the serpent/Satan.  Only god.

 

Do you see the grand lie and the great injustice here, DB?  It was god's will to fracture to perfection of his own creation and bring sin, decay and death into the world.  Every living thing therefore had to suffer because of this.  Elsewhere in Romans Paul says that sin and death came into the world through one man - Adam.  True.  But did he have any choice in the matter?  The answer is also to be found in Romans.

 

Romans 11 : 28 - 32

 

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 

29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 

31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

Here Paul is talking about the disobedience of the Jews, making the point that it is the disobedient who need to receive mercy.  Those who obedient do not need to receive mercy.  They have done no wrong. 

 

In verse 32 we see that god has bound everyone over to disobedience.  Why?  So that he can have mercy upon everyone through the blood of Jesus Christ.  If everyone was bound over to disobedience then Adam and Eve were too.  Why them?  Because Eve was the mother of all the living.  (Genesis 3 : 20)  Therefore, by first binding Adam over to disobedience god ensured that everyone would be disobedient.  Therefore, just as sin and death first entered the world through one man (Adam) so disobedience first entered the human race through Adam.

 

So, did Adam disobey god and sin of his own free will?  No.  Absolutely not.  He was bound over to disobedience by god.  He had his free will violated by god.  He had his ability to choose between good and evil overridden by god.  Adam did not freely choose to sin, he was forced, caused and made to by god.

 

Is an imprisoned man a free man?  No, he is not.  Is a man chained to a wall free to get up and walk away?  No, he is not.  Is a hooded man free to see?  No, he is not.  In the light of Romans 11 : 32 it is impossible for Christian apologists to let god off the hook and argue that Adam was still free to choose to obey god.  That's just nonsense!  That's a kind of Orwellian double-speak. Bondage is not freedom and freedom is not bondage.  They are not the same - they are opposites. 

 

Adam was bound over by god to disobey him.   Therefore it is god who is truly responsible for Adam's sin and disobedience.  Not Adam himself. 

 

Do you now see what I meant by it was much worse, DB?  The grand lie swallowed by all Christians, in defiance of what scripture clearly says, is that Adam and Eve were to blame.  No!  A million times, NO!  NO THEY WERE NOT!  I don't often shout but I'm going to do so now.

 

GOD  AND  ONLY  GOD  AND NOBODY  ELSE  IS  SOLELY  TO BLAME  FOR  ALL  THE  EVIL, SUFFERING  AND  DEATH  THAT CAME  INTO  THE  WORLD!

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

6 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

GOD  AND  ONLY  GOD  AND NOBODY  ELSE  IS  SOLELY  TO BLAME  FOR  ALL  THE  EVIL, SUFFERING  AND  DEATH  THAT CAME  INTO  THE  WORLD!

 

 

According to the stories that were written by humans.  So actually it was sadistic power hungry humans that brought all the sadistic/masocistic behavior to the world.  And some humans disquised it as religion.  In my thinking that took some sly masterminds.

 

I Believe we are seeing the blame thing very similarly, but I don't have time to describe my (perhaps bias) right now.  I will get back to that ASAP.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

19 hours ago, Fuego said:

I wrote an article for the main blog about 14 years ago titled "The God of Abuse". That link is long gone, but click on the title to go to the text of the article. 

 

As others have noted here, the bible conditions us into thinking that we are stuck in a world where a bloodthirsty emotionally volatile guy is in charge of reality. Even your best is shit to him, and he lets you know that. On one hand he blesses genocide and mass rape, on the other he slaughters his own people for not loving him enough. But he wants us to see it all as good, and strong believers are keen to die to even their own opinions so they can finally please him. That is the role of an abuser and how he wants his targets to feel.

 

As Weezer pointed out in the original post, normal desires are turned into something bad so the church can exercise control over you through guilt and public shame. The goal of the church was never to make you feel good about yourself and to produce good humans, but to replicate a belief and to see those that lead the faith as "men of God" to be obeyed. Self is something to crucify (slow painful death), even your own thoughts are not to be trusted.

 

Contrast that with raising healthy kids, encouraging your spouse as an equal, learning about and understanding the world instead of imagining an invisible war of invisible friends and enemies, being kind as default, not being a dick, recognizing normal human desires for sex as NORMAL, personal responsibility for choices, not expecting a god to provide but learning and getting work to provide for yourself (something I resisted because I had magic thinking and actually believed Jesus about the birds of the air). Christianity often sells itself as love in a cold world, and packages fuzzy images of Noah's ark while ignoring the corpses of children floating in the water outside. Marketing at its best. But we've lived through the whole adult version of it and seen it for what it is. But the programming takes time to override. There are days I feel like I need a firmware upgrade (very lowest level programming). We now have hope. 

 

 

An excelent summary of the situation!! And I read your original blog.  Thank you for all the work you put into it.  Everyone should read it if  they want an understanding of what can happen in relationships.  And how damaging the Abrahamic religions are.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 11/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Where placing blame is concerned, I think the healthiest approach is to remember the words of the Buddha:

 

He who blames others has not yet begun the journey. 

He who blames himself is halfway there. 

He who blames no one has arrived. 

 

Things happen.  Rather than assessing who may be at fault, I feel it is more constructive to focus on what happened and how to fix it.  Like a doctor setting a broken bone without worrying over whose fault it was it got broken.  

 

 

Thank you professor for posting that.  Sorry I didn't see it earlier.  Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics between Walter and I, but here are some more thoughts.

 

I am thinking of a personal situation.  My father was occasionally very physically abusive with my brother and I.  I only got whippings with a leather belt, but my brother got beat with a 2x4 once, and a large tree branch once. and with a belt several times. But It was so seldom, and so unexpected, that we were caught off guard.  Not knowing what to expect kept us terribly tense when around him.  I resented him, but mom assured me he loved me and I was told that hating people was a sin, so I convinced myself I did not hate him.  But carred that extreme resentment into adulthood, blaming my father for being a terrible dad. 

 

What I eventually found out was that his father was extremely and continuously abusive with his kids, and his wife.  The last "whipping" (my father called it) he got, he was 18 years old.  He wasn't at the breakfast table with his face washed and hair combed at 7:00 sharp for breakfast.  He was woken by his father throwing back his bed cover and getting beaten by a rope that was used for leading the horses. As my dad told me this story, he was actually laughing and said, "he believed in discipline".  I immediately said. "Dad, that wasn't a whipping. You were being abused".  The grin on his face slowly faded, and in a few seconds he said, "I guess it was."  We were getting ready to eat breakfast at the time, and he was unusually sober through breakfast and most of the morning.  I later learned that he had no idea that I was afraid of him through childhood, but was curious as to why we never had been close.  I also learned he had no memory of the severe "whippings" he had given my brother and myself.  He evidently had blackouts in states of rage.  And he saw "god" in the same light he saw his own dad. Was scared to deat of him. And of course god had said if you spare the rod, it spoils the child.  So just where should the blame be placed in this situation?  Dad had been so traumatized that he couldn't accept his own anger, and a few times in life, blacked out in fits of rage.  After realizing all this, I actually felt sorry for him.  And realized that he did his best considering what he had to work with.  if I had been raised as he was, I might have been just like him.  So what would "blaming" dad for my heart aches, and butt aches accomplish?   The root of the abuse problem didn't belong to him.  But recognizing the problem and working on a better way of living and raising my own kids can make this a better world.  Being angry about the abuse, and expressing the anger is healthy, but I don't see that laying the blame at some persons feet is the answer.  Abuse is a societal problem and happens in religious and non religious societies.  But perhaps symbollicly laying blame at "god's" feet in western society might help?? 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

11 hours ago, Weezer said:

According to the stories that were written by humans.  So actually it was sadistic power hungry humans that brought all the sadistic/masocistic behavior to the world.  And some humans disquised it as religion.  In my thinking that took some sly masterminds.

 

I Believe we are seeing the blame thing very similarly, but I don't have time to describe my (perhaps bias) right now.  I will get back to that ASAP.

 

Ah, now we get to it, Weezer!

 

Yes, you are exactly, totally and completely 100% right.  My argument about blame works only if these ancient creations stories are taken as true, real and historical.  You and I and other Ex-Christians here know full well that they simply cannot be true.  There is no evidence to support them and too much evidence against them.  They are so contradictory and badly written that they cannot be inspired by a perfect god.  They are illogical, irrational and unreasonable, meaning that the god who supposedly inspired them must also be illogical, irrational and unreasonable.  

 

Now, you remember the old catchphrase, "You know that and I know that, but they don't know that" ?

 

This is where you and I could be misunderstanding each other somewhat.  We agree that the bible is ancient nonsense that has been seized upon by clever and unscrupulous people who work on the premise that there's a sucker born every minute.  And not just the bible, the same power play has been going on for centuries, all over the world, with these sly masterminds exploiting the religion of their particular cultures for their own selfish ends.  

 

Conversely, there will have been and still are many good and genuine people who truly believe these collections of myths to be true and who try to live out their lives in accordance with their teachings.  There are kind and gentle and loving Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc., etc.  I have to make this point because it is true.  But where we agree in this thread Weezer is about those sly masterminds.  Wonderfully descriptive words, btw.

 

My argument about blame is only meant for the eyes of those damaged and hurting people who come here looking for escape, solace and fresh hope.  You and I know that the bible is false, but they don't yet know that.  They may suspect it or they may be partly realize that it is, but they haven't put it all fully together yet.  And this is where I believe my argument can be of help.

 

It works because it begins where these people are or where they recently were - believing that each word of the bible is true.  From that starting point I can show them that if all of scripture is god-breathed and literally true then what Paul says in Romans 8 and 11 must also be true.  That god always intended to ruin his own creation.  That it was never Adam and Eve's fault.  That god is to blame for sin and death entering the world.  And, because these things are biblically true it MUST follow that no blame for any sin or evil can be laid at Adam and Eve's door.  Which therefore means that, biblically speaking, nobody is truly to blame for any sin or evil in their lives.  All the blame for that is down to god.  Nobody else.  Not Adam.  Not Eve.  Not Satan, he was just a pawn in god's greater game of self-glorification.  Only god.

 

Another point to consider in the context of scripture is this.  Q.  Did Adam disobey god?  A.  Yes, he did.  But did he actually choose to do so?  If god bound him over to disobedience, just as it says in Romans 11 : 32, then No, Adam did not actually choose to disobey god of his won free will.  God overrode whatever free will he created Adam with and caused him to be disobedient.  Therefore, Adam should not have been penalized and cursed by god for disobeying him.  And consequently, because everyone is descended from Eve, the mother of all the living, nobody should have been penalized and cursed by god for something he inflicted upon all of us.

 

 

In a nutshell Weezer my argument runs like this.

 

The bible itself says that Adam was not to blame for bringing sin and death into the world.  Therefore, you shouldn't blame yourself for something god did to every human being.  In that respect you have nothing to ashamed of to feel guilty about.  All of the sin and wickedness that you used to believe was down to humans and their fallen nature is actually down to god.  He is the wicked one here.  Not Adam and not you.  God selfishly put his own self-glorification before everything else.  He wants to be praised and loved and adored for saving everyone from a fate that he engineered.   That's not love.  That's malicious, calculated, sadistic narcissism .

 

Would you thank a doctor for healing you of a fatal disease if that doctor was the one who deliberately infected you with the disease in the first place?

Or would you thank that doctor for saving the life of your child if he was the one who injected the disease organism into your child earlier on?

Would you thank someone for pulling you out of the ruins of your home if they were the one who dropped the bomb upon it?

 

 

 

Ok Weezer, its a little rough around edges, but I submit that this argument carries within it the potential to help people realize that, in biblical terms, they are not as fallen and wicked as scripture says.  That they are just ordinary human beings who have been tricked by god and by these sly masterminds.  That, like billions of other ordinary people looking for hope and certainty and meaning, they have been sold a lie and have embraced it in good faith.  

 

I hope I haven't rambled too much and have managed to get the salient points across.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Weezer, I had similar experiences growing up.  For me, it was my mother who had been traumatized during childhood; and it was the only way she knew how to deal with her own kids.  It wasn't necessarily as physical as some other kids have faced, and I count myself fortunate for that; but there was always a physical element to it.  For me, it was more emotional and psychological abuse; and its no wonder that my mother is such a devout christian, given that abuse is built right in to the relationship.  I don't typically talk about it, outside of the safety and anonymity of this website; but, when I do talk about it, I say, "There was abuse during my childhood."  I don't say, "I was abused," because that statement places me as a victim; and I'm not going to live as a victim.  I also don't say, "My mother abused me," because that statement places blame on her.  Like you said, who can really say that it was her fault?  I certainly believe that once a person reaches a certain age, they are responsible for their own actions; but I also know that very few people are actually capable of taking responsibility for something so heinous and violent as abusing their kids.  I think it bears noting that there is a difference between forgiveness and absolution.  Forgiveness is setting yourself free from what another person has done to you; absolution is setting the other person free as well.  For my own sanity and sobriety, I have forgiven my mother; but it is not within my power to offer her absolution.

 

In recent years, I've come to realize that language really does matter; and the way we describe certain people, places, ideas, events, etc. has a profound effect on how we view those things.  Subsequently, this also has a direct impact on how we deal with those things.  I can say, "I'm an alcoholic;" but that is allowing my disease to define me, rather than allowing me to define my disease.  This is why I will instead say, "I'm a person with alcoholism;" because I am a person first, and I also happen to have this condition along with an (unfortunately) increasing number of other ailments that come along as the years go by.  Similarly, "There was abuse during my childhood" is a statement that merely presents the facts as they are, claiming neither victim nor perpetrator.  Anyway, that's just how this old redneck sees things.  I'm sure there are other ideas.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Yes, you are exactly, totally and completely 100% right. 

 

You are more sure of that than I am.  But it seems to be extremely important to you!  Relax man!  Life is too short to worry about being totally and completely 100% right, 100% of the time.  Only "GOD" can be totally and completely 100% right.    Come down to earth and be one of us imperfect human beings.  In a way I a joking with you, but at the same time I am serious.  You may have left the religion behind, but if you are scared of making a mistake, part of the conditioning of the fantasy god of the hebrews is still with you.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

In recent years, I've come to realize that language really does matter; and the way we describe certain people, places, ideas, events, etc. has a profound effect on how we view those things.  

 

I agree!  But changing those old habits of how we phrase things, and think about things is really hard.  And the older you get the worse it gets.  Even during my professional years I  had to work hard at shoving my Okie redneck thinking behind, and getting into a "professional" mindset.  HA! And now after almost 20 years of retirement, and old age, it is hard to keep them separated and think rationally.

[walterpthefirst]

20 hours ago, Weezer said:

You are more sure of that than I am.  But it seems to be extremely important to you!  Relax man!  Life is too short to worry about being totally and completely 100% right, 100% of the time.  Only "GOD" can be totally and completely 100% right.    Come down to earth and be one of us imperfect human beings.  In a way I a joking with you, but at the same time I am serious.  You may have left the religion behind, but if you are scared of making a mistake, part of the conditioning of the fantasy god of the hebrews is still with you.

 

 

I take your point and it would be foolish of me to dispute it, Weezer.

 

Years and years of diligently trying to find the correct balance of doctrine, theology and spirituality have left me with the very traits you observe.

 

But can you not see how I am trying to turn these very behaviours to the advantage of those who come to this forum, looking to us for help?

 

By crafting a rigorous scripture-based argument that clearly tells them they have been tricked and lied to about their sin.

 

This phrase come to mind.  You set a thief to catch a thief.  

 

I believe that I've created a persuasive argument, using the methods and terms that these people will readily understand - scripture.

 

What do you think about that argument?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 11/12/2023 at 9:05 PM, Fuego said:

As Weezer pointed out in the original post, normal desires are turned into something bad so the church can exercise control over you through guilt and public shame. The goal of the church was never to make you feel good about yourself and to produce good humans, but to replicate a belief and to see those that lead the faith as "men of God" to be obeyed. Self is something to crucify (slow painful death), even your own thoughts are not to be trusted.

 

This was maybe the hardest for me. How do you stop your thoughts??? Even if you can, I think you tend to dream about the things you're ignoring. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 11/12/2023 at 9:05 PM, Fuego said:

Christianity often sells itself as love in a cold world, and packages fuzzy images of Noah's ark while ignoring the corpses of children floating in the water outside. Marketing at its best. But we've lived through the whole adult version of it and seen it for what it is. But the programming takes time to override. There are days I feel like I need a firmware upgrade (very lowest level programming). We now have hope. 

Right???

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:51 AM, Weezer said:

The root of the abuse problem didn't belong to him.  But recognizing the problem and working on a better way of living and raising my own kids can make this a better world.  Being angry about the abuse, and expressing the anger is healthy, but I don't see that laying the blame at some persons feet is the answer.  Abuse is a societal problem and happens in religious and non religious societies.  But perhaps symbollicly laying blame at "god's" feet in western society might help?? 

Is god the ultimate Abuser of mankind? Do we learn all our cruelty through him? The argument could be made, I think. 

Great point Weezer and thank you! 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I believe that I've created a persuasive argument, using the methods and terms that these people will readily understand - scripture.

 

Yes, you do make some VERY good arguments.  And maybe it is just me, but at times your huge volume of words, and absolute  statements are a turn off.  As well as hanging onto arguments too long at times.  I believe your perfectionism gets in the way of your effectiveness.  But these are just my opinions. And perhaps the reason we get into these discussions is because we have some of the same personality characteristics??    Perhaps a course in writing would make you an even more effective writer?  

[walterpthefirst]

11 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Yes, you do make some VERY good arguments.  And maybe it is just me, but at times your huge volume of words, and absolute  statements are a turn off.  As well as hanging onto arguments too long at times.  I believe your perfectionism gets in the way of your effectiveness.  But these are just my opinions. And perhaps the reason we get into these discussions is because we have some of the same personality characteristics??    Perhaps a course in writing would make you an even more effective writer?  

 

That sounds reasonable, Weezer.

 

I'd like to be able to make my argument more concise, but currently can't see a way of doing so.  But I suspect that if a visiting Christian apologist would play ball and honestly answer the few simple and direct questions I'd put to them about the true cause of sin and Adam's lack of free will, then this would be significant.  They (and anyone observing the thread) would very quickly see that god intended to bring blame and curses down upon Adam and Eve all along.  Not because he is all-knowing but because it was his will to entrap them into the position of wrongdoing. 

 

Why?  Because then he could forgive them and have mercy upon and glorify himself for showing forgiveness and being merciful.  How did he do this?  By binding whatever free will they might have had over so that they were compelled to disobey him.  It was god's will to do this.  And scripture makes it clear that men cannot fight against god's will.  In Acts 5, when the apostles healed many people they were arrested by the Sanhedrin and were put on trial.  Some of the Sanhedrin wanted to put the apostles to death, but a Pharisee called Gamaliel pointed out that if the apostles were doing god's will there was nothing the Sanhedrin could do to stop this happening.

 

Acts 5 : 38 & 39.

 

38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 

39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

 

Poor Adam!  Created out of the mud to be royally shafted by god and to carry the can for a deed he was forced to carry out.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

You are welcome.