Suffering For The Will Of god

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, TABA said:

No thanks.  With all due respect Ed, I am not interested in debating Christianity with you.  If you wish to know why I do not believe, you can look here…

 

I’m talking about Occam’s razor.  I can’t see that it’s remotely viable.  For very simple topical explanations then yes, but still falls apart.

 

i don’t care to debate Christianity either..

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

No, Walter always says it goes back to the Garden.  Wheezer says everything has a cause.  Problem is in this case we don’t know the cause for God not intervening similarly to why the subjection to evil in the garden.

 

Uh... yes we do.

 

It's written down in the bible

 

All we have to do is look.

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Uh... yes we do.

 

It's written down in the bible

 

All we have to do is look.

That's fine Walter....please show us where we have complete understanding from the scripture.  Then we will do a few test examples to prove your point.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

That's fine Walter....please show us where we have complete understanding from the scripture.  Then we will do a few test examples to prove your point.

 

Thank you, Ed.

 

 

But first I need to lay the groundwork by pointing out something about god that runs from Genesis right through to Revelation.

 

And then I need to ask you a simple Yes/No question about it.

 

Then I'll present the scripture I'm referring to - the passage that gives us a complete understanding of god's will for the entire human race.

 

Are you happy to be part of that by letting me proceed, by answering my Yes/No question and then by looking at that passage of scripture?

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Thank you, Ed.

 

 

But first I need to lay the groundwork by pointing out something about god that runs from Genesis right through to Revelation.

 

And then I need to ask you a simple Yes/No question about it.

 

Then I'll present the scripture I'm referring to - the passage that gives us a complete understanding of god's will for the entire human race.

 

Are you happy to be part of that by letting me proceed, by answering my Yes/No question and then by looking at that passage of scripture?

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

No sir, thanks.  Given your claim, just please answer the Prof’s question.  Why does God allow this seemingly innocent child to suffer?  And I don’t see a direct correlation between his will for us and cause anyhow.  So you might please include the connection…thx 

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

No sir, thanks.  Given your claim, just please answer the Prof’s question.  Why does God allow this seemingly innocent child to suffer?  And I don’t see a direct correlation between his will for us and cause anyhow.  So you might please include the connection…thx 

 

The answer to the Prof's question of why god allows a seemingly innocent child to suffer is given in that passage of scripture.

 

The one that comes after I lay my groundwork and after you've answered my Yes/No question.

 

You won't be able to see the connection until both of those things are done.

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

It seems to me that the Prof already answered his own question right there in the OP; but what do I know?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Hey, Walt, I'll answer a yes/no question for you, since Edgarcito won't play ball.  I'm as good at pretending to be a christian as christians are.

[TABA]

Hey @Edgarcito, by now Walter has surely signed off for the night, but on this side of the pond, rather than getting sidetracked by Occam’s Razor, let’s return to our original exchange from this afternoon…

 

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Problem is in this case we don’t know the cause for God not intervening similarly to why the subjection to evil in the garden.

 

5 hours ago, TABA said:

It could be because God either doesn’t exist or is in fact evil.  

Ed, are you prepared to accept the possibility that God’s nonintervention could be because he is evil or because he does not exist?  Could one of these options explain it?  

[walterpthefirst]

7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Hey, Walt, I'll answer a yes/no question for you, since Edgarcito won't play ball.  I'm as good at pretending to be a christian as christians are.

 

Hello Prof.

 

 

The truth of the matter is that TABA and I have been discussing things, off and on, via private messaging.  Recently I asked him to help me clarify and test something by bouncing ideas off him and he readily agreed.  So, that passage of scripture, the one which explains god's will when it comes to making seemingly innocent children suffer was a joint discovery.  I couldn't have done it on my own.  TABA's input was vital.

 

Therefore, I suggest that he open up our private conversation to you, so that you can see our thinking.  That way you can see the context for yourself and I can ask you that Yes/No question in a place where Edgarcito won't be able to just see the answer without doing the necessary work.

 

That sound ok to you?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Therefore, I suggest that he open up our private conversation to you, so that you can see our thinking.  That way you can see the context for yourself and I can ask you that Yes/No question in a place where Edgarcito won't be able to just see the answer without doing the necessary work.

 

That sound ok to you?

No.  There's no need to trouble yourself. 

[Edgarcito]

13 hours ago, TABA said:

Hey @Edgarcito, by now Walter has surely signed off for the night, but on this side of the pond, rather than getting sidetracked by Occam’s Razor, let’s return to our original exchange from this afternoon…

 

 

Ed, are you prepared to accept the possibility that God’s nonintervention could be because he is evil or because he does not exist?  Could one of these options explain it?  

I expect it depends whether we are staying within the bounds of one, that God exists, and two, the bounds of the scriptures.  If we are outside of those for this discussion, than yes, those would be possibilities.

 

What I visualizing with our reality....and Occam's razor, is essentially a triangle.....with certainty the apex of the triangle/peak.  The more we examine the realty, the wider towards the base of the triangle, the factors that contribute to the apex. and the less the certainty.

[walterpthefirst]

Ok then Prof.  I hear you.

 

 

 

 

Well, I don't suppose it will hurt for me to lay out the groundwork I mentioned yesterday,  ask and answer that one question and then explain how that one passage answers the prof's question... 'Why does god allow this seemingly innocent child to suffer?"

 

 

The groundwork

 

Beginning with Abraham's question, "Will not the judge of the earth do right?" (Genesis 18 : 25) god is referred to as the judge of all in twelve books of the Old Testament, three of the Gospels, eight of the Epistles and finally the book of Revelation.  So, for all scripture-believing Christians, judgment by god is integral to their faith.

 

 

 

The question

 

When it comes to pronouncing sentence what is it that a judge has no power to do?

 

 

 

The answer

 

A judge cannot be merciful and lenient to an innocent person because they have done no wrong.  He can only be merciful and lenient to one who has been found guilty.

 

 

 

The passage of scripture

 

 

Romans 11 : 32.   For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

 

The explanation

 

 

Because god wants to have mercy on everyone it was necessary for everyone to be found guilty of disobedience in his sight.  So, god ensured that everyone would be found guilty in his sight by binding everyone into a state of disobedience.  As the judge of all god would then have the power to grant mercy to all because all were guilty.  Guilty, not because they freely chose to be disobedient but because god violated their free will, making them unable to choose to obey him.

 

That was the first step in god's plan to have mercy on us all.

 

The next step was for god to issue a command to Adam, knowing full well that he had denied Adam the ability to freely choose to obey it.  Genesis 2 : 16 & 17.  16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”  God had also put the fate of all creation into Adam's hands, knowing full well that Adam would disobey him.  It wasn't just god's perfect foresight that allowed him to know this - he had actively interfered with Adam's free will, making it impossible for Adam to obey that command.

 

Adam disobeyed because he had no other choice but to do so.

 

In disobeying he ceased to be the innocent person that god created and became guilty of disobedience.  If Adam had remained innocent then god, as the judge of all mankind, would not have had the power to have mercy upon him.  But, by becoming guilty of disobedience it then became possible for god to have mercy upon him and all of his descendants.  This was the outcome god wanted, as described in Romans 11: 32.  God wanted everyone to be guilty and he used Adam to make that happen.

 

However, god's mercy wasn't given immediately to Adam. 

 

God's mercy only comes through the blood of Jesus Christ.  So thousands of years had to elapse before that happened and god incarnated himself as Jesus.  Thousands more years have elapsed since.  All through these ages the entire human race has been suffering the miseries of disease, decay and death, brought about by god's desire to have mercy on us.  The miseries caused by god putting the fate of creation in Adam's hands and then giving him a command he prevented Adam from obeying.

 

And all the wickedness in the world is down to god's desire to make us all guilty - so that he could have mercy on us all.  The wickedness of little girls suffering torment, torture, rape and murder was initially caused by god's desire to make us all guilty.  God himself is the first, true and ultimate cause of all human suffering - not Adam.  Adam cannot be blamed because his free will was violated by god to bring about the outcome god wanted.  For us all to be guilty in his sight.

 

And this explains why the omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing and and all powerful god of the bible does NOTHING to prevent or alleviate human suffering.

 

To him our suffering is just the necessary collateral damage in his grand cosmic plan to make us all guilty of disobedience. 

 

Romans 11 : 32 explains it all.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TABA]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I expect it depends whether we are staying within the bounds of one, that God exists, and two, the bounds of the scriptures.  If we are outside of those for this discussion, than yes, those would be possibilities.

I would say that any discussion in this place should venture outside those bounds, so thank you.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I don't think you can stay within those bounds, given that god cannot exist as the scripture describes him.  Bound one and bound two would be mutually exclusive.  It's possible a god exists in some other form or fashion outside of the scripture; but what the book itself says simply ain't true.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

And all the wickedness in the world is down to god's desire to make us all guilty - so that he could have mercy on us all. 

Mercy?  Mercy is what god offers us?

 

Let's revisit the hotel room for a moment.  Imagine that, after the horrendous violation is finished, this sadistic monster takes the little girl into his arms, holds her, tells her she is strong and everything will be alright, and even takes a tissue and wipes the tears from her eyes.  

 

Is he showing her mercy?  Are these acts of compassion on his part?  Is he genuinely attempting to comfort her after the atrocity he inflicted upon her?

 

Or is he actually attempting to absolve himself because, on some level, he knows his actions were as deplorable as they were despicable?

 

If god did condemn us all to suffering, by violating our free will and deliberately subjecting us to disobedience (and scripture blatantly confirms that he did), then what he offers us now is nothing at all like mercy.  It is the same selfish, cowardly self-absolution as that of the pedophile in the hotel room.

 

god's "mercy" is nothing more than his own misplaced shame inflicted upon us out of his own arrogance and self-righteousness. 

[walterpthefirst]

Romans 9 : 14 - 24

 

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

 

Who are you Professor, the 'pot', to talk back to god the potter and question his will?

 

You desire mercy for the little girl?

 

But god's mercy does not depend on your human desire.

 

If it is his will to use that little girl as an object of his wrath, prepared in advance for a short life of terrible suffering followed by an eternity of even more terrible suffering, then who are you to question his judgment?

 

And if he chooses to call his treatment of her 'merciful' then who are you to gainsay him?

 

 

Well?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Mercy?  Mercy is what god offers us?

 

Let's revisit the hotel room for a moment.  Imagine that, after the horrendous violation is finished, this sadistic monster takes the little girl into his arms, holds her, tells her she is strong and everything will be alright, and even takes a tissue and wipes the tears from her eyes.  

 

Is he showing her mercy?  Are these acts of compassion on his part?  Is he genuinely attempting to comfort her after the atrocity he inflicted upon her?

 

Or is he actually attempting to absolve himself because, on some level, he knows his actions were as deplorable as they were despicable?

 

If god did condemn us all to suffering, by violating our free will and deliberately subjecting us to disobedience (and scripture blatantly confirms that he did), then what he offers us now is nothing at all like mercy.  It is the same selfish, cowardly self-absolution as that of the pedophile in the hotel room.

 

god's "mercy" is nothing more than his own misplaced shame inflicted upon us out of his own arrogance and self-righteousness. 

 

 

Oh and btw, Prof...

 

 

God did not  OFFER  us mercy.

 

He forced his mercy upon us by causing us to be guilty of disobedience.

 

There's no element of choice involved here.

 

This was an offer we could never refuse.

 

 

Deal with it.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

And if he chooses to call his treatment of her 'merciful' then who are you to gainsay him?

 

 

Well?

 

 

 

I answered that question over a decade ago.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

Oh and btw, Prof...

 

 

God did not  OFFER  us mercy.

 

He forced his mercy upon us by causing us to be guilty of disobedience.

 

There's no element of choice involved here.

 

This was an offer we could never refuse.

 

 

Deal with it.

 

 

Almost sounds as if we're all little girls in god's hotel room.

[walterpthefirst]

No, Walter always says it goes back to the Garden.  Wheezer says everything has a cause.  Problem is in this case we don’t know the cause for God not intervening similarly to why the subjection to evil in the garden.

 

 

But we do know the cause, Edgarcito.

 

We do know why god doesn't intervene to prevent evil.

 

We do know that it was god who prevented Adam from obeying his command in the garden of Eden.

 

And we do know the workings of god's plan to force his mercy upon us and so bring suffering into the world.

 

 

There are no longer any unfathomable mysteries here.

 

Scripture gives us all we need to know and understand god's true nature.

 

And now you know that it was Romans 11 : 32 that explains everything.

 

 

You've  received all of this without having to answer a single question.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

In simple terms, it sounds like the god as described in the bible is a sadistic S.O.B.

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Weezer said:

In simple terms, it sounds like the god as described in the bible is a sadistic S.O.B.

 

Indeed, Weezer.

 

The Prof nailed it yesterday when he wrote this...

 

Almost sounds as if we're all little girls in god's hotel room.

 

When an overwhelmingly powerful person forces their will upon a weaker person who cannot resist, where is the weaker person's free choice in the matter?

 

The sickening irony is that many people worship that powerful person, calling what he did to us, 'love'.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Here's an additional thought to consider about Romans 11 : 32.

 

 

AFAIK nowhere in scripture does it say that Adam  chose  to disobey god.

 

In the OT and the NT it tells us that he did disobey.   And Christian apologists usually infer that he had the ability to choose by pointing out that he was made in the image of god.  But that argument and what Romans 11 : 32 says cannot both be true.  Its one or the other, not both.  Here's why.

 

Q.  If I lock you in a prison cell are you free to leave it?

A.  No.  I have taken away your freedom to do that.  

 

Romans 11 : 32 tells us that god bound (or imprisoned, depending on the translation) everyone into a state of disobedience.  So the logic of the Q & A above applies here.  People in bondage are not free and people who are imprisoned are not at liberty.  To claim that bondage is freedom and that imprisonment is liberty is just Orwellian doublespeak.  If your freedom to choose is denied you, how can you possibly exercise it?

 

And besides, the bible itself is quite clear that the Israelites were in bondage for generations, as slaves in Egypt.  They were saved from slavery and imprisonment by god and lead to the freedom of the promised land by Moses.  So there is no case to answer when it comes to the meaning of bondage and freedom in scripture.  One does not mean the other.  The two words are opposites and their meanings cannot be switched, swapped or changed in any way to blur or mix what they mean.

 

 

So, the lies which Christians usually promote are now exposed for what they are.   Lies.

 

"Adam freely chose to disobey god."   No.  He was forced to do so by god.

 

"Adam could have resisted Satan."    No.  He was forced to yield to Satan by god.

 

"God doesn't send anyone to hell, they choose to send themselves there."

 

No.  That's a lie.  

 

God forced everyone to disobey him, making everyone guilty and deserving of hell.   God never gave anyone the opportunity to freely choose to obey him.

 

Lies.   All lies.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

 

[walterpthefirst]

  On 2/16/2024 at 8:32 PM, Edgarcito said:

No, Walter always says it goes back to the Garden.  Wheezer says everything has a cause.  Problem is in this case we don’t know the cause for God not intervening similarly to why the subjection to evil in the garden.

 

 

Uh... yes we do.

 

It's written down in the bible

 

All we have to do is look.

That's fine Walter....please show us where we have complete understanding from the scripture.  Then we will do a few test examples to prove your point.

 

 

Hello Edgarcito.

 

 

I believe that scripture gives us a complete understanding of why god doesn't intervene to stop suffering.

 

So, would you like to set a few test examples to prove that?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.