Suffering For The Will Of god

[pantheory]

I thought I already responded to this thread but can't find any posting of mine here. As for me, I would look at both the perpetrator and victim as both victims.  The little girl also could have suffered from neglect at home, or she was kidnapped. Obviously she needs to get the F out of there. The pedophile might have also been abused as a child. Even abuse can have different forms, some gentile and some more aggressive and violent. As a gentle abuser the perpetrator might afterwards take the girl to somewhere safe, then quickly split,  and much later be rehabilitated with treatment. As an aggressive abuser, caring little about the child or not at all, maybe only lifetime imprisonment or physical castration could keep him from his highly criminal behavior. Once discovered as such, pedophiles do not do well in prison.

 

There has been a big change in some quarters of public thinking since the 1970's. At that time there was a comic strip character in Hustler Magazine called Chester the Molester. Later the name simply changed to Chester. I thought it was funny, but no religious folk, and nearly no women thought it was funny based upon my inquiries.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_the_Molester

 

As to how could a God permit all this, there's a very very simple answer. There's no such thing as God or gods, It's all mythological concerning the spiritual aspect of all religions -- all of which also collectively include few "wise" adages for today's world IMHO.

[walterpthefirst]

19 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

 

As to how could a God permit all this, there's a very very simple answer. There's no such thing as God or gods, It's all mythological concerning the spiritual aspect of all religions -- all of which also collectively include few "wise" adages for today's world IMHO.

 

 

With all due respect Pantheory, many if not most of the people coming here, looking for help to leave Christianity simply cannot do what you advocate and nor can they heed your advice.  The only way you can really understand the mindset of an indoctrinated Christian is if you were one.

 

And, you never were one, were you?

 

That is why the Prof couched his opening story and question in terms of what is scriptural, showing that the god described in the bible is a predatory, sadistic monster.  And that is why I have framed my argument in this thread along the same lines.  The poor, emotionally-scarred people coming here for our help will respond better and more easily to scripture-based arguments against Christianity than your overly simplistic secular ones.

 

Why? 

 

Because they were indoctrinated to think only in scriptural terms and so they are helped by seeing that we were too.  We are their kindred spirits because we have suffered in the same ways they have.  We also know all of the half-baked apologetic arguments they will have heard and we also know how to refute them.

 

But you don't do you?

 

Your heart is in right place and your are comments well meant.  But your advice is not likely to help and some people may even be put off or offended that you think their trauma can be so lightly and easily dismissed.  Sometimes, when a patient is in a very vulnerable and fragile state that last thing they want to hear from their breezily cheerful doctor is to...

 

"Just snap out of it and get a grip on reality!"

 

There are no simple answers here Pantheory, despite your assertion that there are.  I wonder if such advice is at all helpful.  So, perhaps you might consider NOT treating these emotionally injured people in such a blithely dismissive way?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter. 

 

[TABA]

Walter,  I don’t see anything wrong with Pantheory’s contribution.  Different members bring different approaches to opposing and debunking christian theology.  

[AnonSan]

6 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Because they were indoctrinated to think only in scriptural terms and so they are helped by seeing that were too.  We are their kindred spirits because we have suffered in the same ways they have.  We also know all of the half-baked apologetic arguments they will have heard and we also know how to refute them.

 

Often, these scriptural terms are very rigid and require members to uphold (unrealistic) high standards, particularly from legalistic denominations. Some denominations, including mine's, uphold the Bible as the supreme law of ethical and moral foundation of their (Xtian) lifestyle despite the obvious contradictions and obtuse expectations. Indoctrination discourages critical thinking and ability to grow as free individuals. Because of this, those who uphold apologetic arguments often end up frustrating others with their circular reasoning and their inability to see the bigger picture. (edit: wording choice)

 

6 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Your heart is in right place and your are comments well meant.  But your advice is not likely to help and some people may even be put off or offended that you think their trauma can be so lightly and easily dismissed.  Sometimes, when a patient is in a very vulnerable and fragile state that last thing they want to hear from their breezily cheerful doctor is to...

 

"Just snap out of it and get a grip on reality!"

 

There are no simple answers here Pantheory, despite your assertion that there are.  I wonder if such advice is at all helpful.  So, perhaps you might consider NOT treating these emotionally injured people in such a blithely dismissive way?

 

Trauma, especially caused by religious abuse, is indeed very complex. Many therapists, I found, are not well-versed in truly understanding the struggles and experiences of their clients it unless they have personally experienced themselves or have very strong background working with the multicultural perspective. Being a daughter of immigrants and raised in a legalistic church has amplified my trauma twofold that finding help is not as easy as typing in a Google search. Rather, finding the right type of help and resources takes months of interviews, research, and effort depending how accessible they are. I cannot speak for all people and women of color, but I can tell you that I have been outside of therapy more than I ever had therapy, unintentionally, because the disparity to receive effective mental health services for the multicultural community is severely lacking. 

 

Like many people of color and from immigrant families suffering from trauma, they already have received advice mentioned too many times. Their families and cultures come from highly collectivist dynamics that enable the idea of "being seen, but never heard." Individualistic ideas and thoughts may be seen as selfish and your emotional needs are neglected in favor of preserving the (dysfunctional) family unit's public image. I wish it was simple to "Just snap out of it and get a grip on reality!" Otherwise, my family issues, trauma, and grief would have been solved a long time ago. But as I mentioned earlier, it is not as simple when resources, support, and emotional needs are limited and issues involved are complex and multifaceted than you probably think. 

[pantheory]

5 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

With all due respect Pantheory, many if not most of the people coming here, looking for help to leave Christianity simply cannot do what you advocate and nor can they heed your advice.  The only way you can really understand the mindset of an indoctrinated Christian is if you were one.

 

And, you never were one, were you?

 

That is why the Prof couched his opening story and question in terms of what is scriptural, showing that the god described in the bible is a predatory, sadistic monster.  And that is why I have framed my argument in this thread along the same lines.  The poor, emotionally-scarred people coming here for our help will respond better and more easily to scripture-based arguments against Christianity than your overly simplistic secular ones.

 

Why? 

 

Because they were indoctrinated to think only in scriptural terms and so they are helped by seeing that were too.  We are their kindred spirits because we have suffered in the same ways they have.  We also know all of the half-baked apologetic arguments they will have heard and we also know how to refute them.

 

But you don't do you?

 

Your heart is in right place and your are comments well meant.  But your advice is not likely to help and some people may even be put off or offended that you think their trauma can be so lightly and easily dismissed.  Sometimes, when a patient is in a very vulnerable and fragile state that last thing they want to hear from their breezily cheerful doctor is to...

 

"Just snap out of it and get a grip on reality!"

 

There are no simple answers here Pantheory, despite your assertion that there are.  I wonder if such advice is at all helpful.  So, perhaps you might consider NOT treating these emotionally injured people in such a blithely dismissive way?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter. 

 

 

"The only way you can really understand the mindset of an indoctrinated Christian is if you were one. And, you never were one, were you?

 

You're right Walter. I did believe in Christianity, in God and in Jesus,  I did pray, I did go to church almost every Sunday, I did study the Bible, I did love to sing the songs, but I was a child and teenager at the time. My mother advised me to study the Bible and I followed her advice. She was a school librarian at the time so I would go to the library and read the Bible sometimes on a daily basis for hours. My mother said she read the bible from cover to cover completely two different times. She was an English major and teacher. I did read the Bible from cover to cover but never word for word, some of it more of a perusal. 

 

In this way I was never an indoctrinated Christian since my parents wanted me to learn Christianity on my own while asking questions. The "problem" for me was that I was also studying science at the same time in the library, trying to find the alternative science explanations for the Bible since Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark, for instance, never made any sense to me logically. My father was a theist but I don't think he ever believed in organized religion, and when asked would generally tell jokes about religion. Both of my parents were college grads, and 3 of my 4 grand parents were also college grads. Reading was a big deal for all of them, but unfortunately their main theme of study was business, accounting, sales, and popular novels. Upon studying science well beyond my own grade level, I came to a Eureka moment. I said to myself, you know, all religions of the world are pure BS, and even some of science also seemed like there was a lot BS in it also.

 

So, true, I never jumped into the pool of religion with both feet. I was baptized as a Methodist and spent almost every Sunday in church for 6-7 years as a kid. For years I studied Catholic catechysm, went to JW Kingdom Halls, LDS Temples, reform Judaism Synagogues, Muslim Mosques, Japanese Buddhism (Nichiren daishonin buddhist Temples), Chinese Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, went to all their churches, temples, Muslim mosques, kingdom halls, etc. many times, learned some of their prayers in their native languages, and said them, but not in earnest My studies of religions were academic in nature, as one would study Greek Mythology. 

 

Points of interest:  I have an old King James English Bible (folio size) that was printed in 1640. But It is only in fair condition. I also have my great grandmother's Bible written in German, where she entered her own script as a pre-teen in German in 1875, My younger Christian sisters were not interested in these things but they still go to church most Sundays to this day. As an atheist my children were not baptized as babies but my ex-wife was a Christian and prayed, but never took them to church. I did. All three were baptized at their own request. To this day one is a Christian, one is an agnostic, and one is an atheist like me and is the only college grad of my 3 children. All the church going for my kids was done by me, a complete and total atheist.  My theme, give them access to the facts and let them decide for themselves when they are old enough, what they want to believe.

 

I believe kids should be given the facts and choose for themselves, without undo influence from their elders. Yes, I have been a complete atheist since age 15-16 and never have had bad experiences with religion. You might say that I never jumped into the muck with both feet. I came here for the first time about 11 years ago when my science theories were being discussed here  in the Science vs. Religion forum. I found this conversation on a Google search. I have stayed here ever since then because I liked the people here, and as a science advisor, since many religious folk lack knowledge in science, where all of the evidence lies.

 

This thread was started by the Prof. , and Edgarcito is a friend of mine here that knows for sure that I do not take religion seriously, and that I am a kind-hearted atheist. All know that the Prof''s scenario is a kind of diatribe to show logical reasons for the non-existence of God, and my chiming in is simply my opinion as I state.