For All The Ex-christians On This Site

[Young Mother Atheist]

I have only been on this forum for a short time under this name, but I have been a member of this forum in the past under a different name for a longer time (since Christmas 2005). In the whole time I have noticed something about some of the members that post on here, and I would like to address it.

 

This being an ex-Christian forum, I know there are bound to be people that are very tired of Christianity. Those people probably don't like it when Christians try to come on here and convert them- I wouldn't either. However, as in the case of Amy Marie, some Christians can come on here and simply share their side. They may be doing it in hopes of saving people, but as long as they are not cutting down ex-Christians who cares of their motivation? It gives us something interesting to talk about and may help other people on their path to deconversion.

 

I have noticed people being rude in discussions with Amy that are supposed to be civil discussions of topics of interest. I would like to submit to you that this is unnecessary and actually causes more harm to come to all ex-Christians. Most Christians think people that don't have God/Jesus are void of morals and need saving. We all know this to be untrue as I think most of the people on this site seem to have a strong sense of what they believe or at least are getting there (indicating a great amount of introspection and individual growth). However, acting like assholes, picking apart irrelevant things said or spelling errors, and generally acting unaccepting all portray ex-Christians to be exactly what Christians tend to think we are. This enforces that general idea of the world having a need for God to have a decent and moral life and for people to be good. It provides fuel for their fire and can bring about more discrimination and stereotyping of the "unsaved."

 

I challenge anyone that enters a discussion area to be civil and keep on topic. There are places for rants and random stuff outside of discussion topics. The nonsense comments and bashing comments waste space, time, and, I think, harm ex-Christians. You must know that if you are a member of a group you represent that group. Since all of us here used to be Christians and have taken the difficult and brave journey out of it, I hope we can all appreciate each other and where we come from. I think that because of where we have come from and all we have had to go through we should be more respectful of one another and our differences.

 

I hope this makes sense. It was something that was bothering me, and I tried to present it as clearly as possible. Thanks for reading.

[Knightley]

You make a great point, I think that we've all been hurt by christianity, especially those of us who used to be hardcore fundies. However, I want to point out that it doesn't help if christians come in here and evangelize, no one wants to have that done to them anymore. People get resentful and start being rude, but I think you made a great point.

[white_raven23]

I think very few people are deliberately and immediately rude to the christians who come here. That comes with time. Albeit it's a short time..... but there are just some things that are very hard to put up with.

 

The christian comes in, looks around, makes a few sweeping generalizations about the folks here, usually followed with some variation of "christianity is the truth, you are all wrong, it's a good thing I came here".

 

Followed promptly by one of the following:

 

1. A grand claim of ultimate and convincing evidence.......to be presented later at an undetermined time because the christian in question has stuff to go do. This is pompous and rude. If they have something to share, they shoud hop to and share it already! This is an online forum, not a telephone conversation, or a chat room! If they have other stuff to do, they should just go DO it, then come back and present! Not make a claim followed by a brb.

 

2. Blatantly ignoring insightful questioning posts, in favor for taking opinion posts out of context, or too seriously. Do they really think this smokescreen works? They respond to posts that do not require a response, as though we aren't able to remember, or backtrack through the posts to notice they are only responding to easy shit, and entirely avoiding the pointed questions. Pretty hypocritical and evasive for someone who came here to 'witness'.

 

3. Resorting to emotionalism. The ultimate ego. We must obviously have the exact same feelings and insights as this person.....we're just afraid to feel. This one drives me nuts because it's usually based on a stereotyped premise of some kind. Really no different than..."Oh, you have breasts, so obviously that means you want to bear children."

 

Personally, I'm not a CareBear. I feel no need or desire to be warm and cuddly to rude uninvited guests who make outrageous claims, then ignore or dodge perfectly good questions about those claims. It strikes me as false. I feel no need to understand false people. Especially ones who make no effort to understand us in kind.

[Young Mother Atheist]

Personally, I'm not a CareBear. I feel no need or desire to be warm and cuddly to rude uninvited guests who make outrageous claims, then ignore or dodge perfectly good questions about those claims. It strikes me as false. I feel no need to understand false people. Especially ones who make no effort to understand us in kind.

 

I agree with you. I was only talking about being nice to those who haven't shown those types of things you were talking about. Maybe Amy did that and I didn't see it.

[♦ nivek ♦]

YAM,

 

Usually in my meat.space I don't go about giving anyone grief until they first lay the crap on me first.

 

In e.space that same form of courtesy is extended and offered in discussion.

 

You post and toss ideas out.

 

I reply.

 

We either agree or not, but often the posting stays on topic and civil.

 

 

It is not a great big hairyassed deal to do so.

 

Until:

 

Some fool walks in and attempts to use my space on the Web, the place where the Boss has provided a meeting spot of folks trying to get loose of the system and starts 'firing for effect'.

 

I resent being part of the religious-sectarian collateral damage.

 

Some starts shooting, I tend to draw, index and return fire accurately.

 

If that pisses off the offender, tough.. If it chases them off, swearing never to return, my work may eventually cause them to think further. If then swear off from "dem ebbile afthiests" for life, then it was meant to be..

 

In any event kindness cuts both ways.

 

kevinL

[jjacksonRIAB]

Danger: Sermon from the mount in progress. Feel free to smash your tablets at any time.

[Checkmate]

Hello YMA.

 

While I understand where you're coming from, and even agree with you to some degree, you must understand that what you're proposing is largely a fairy tale utopia. We've had this same discussion dozens of times in the past, and we usually come to the same conclusion. Which is:

 

The members of this forum are NOT some unified, monolithic "group". We are a few thousand individuals, who are coming from different cultures, backgrounds and attitudes. We don't have any formalized rules of engagement or behaviors outlined. It's the best example of a free-for-all that you'll ever see. To expect any one person or collection of people here to accurately represent "Ex-Christians" is not only unfair, but unreasonable. And anyone who thinks that this tiny percentage of humans and our behaviors accurately reflects ALL Ex-Christians, well...they're just stupid.

 

It can't be helped. Unless you want the webmaster Dave to establish concrete rules of conformity for members, just as they do on CHRISTIAN forums, banning people for stepping out of proscribed limits at any moment, for ANY reason that offends ANY sensibilities, then we're stuck with bad/crude behavior from time to time. (Which, more times than not, gets itself worked out between those concerned, often with grudging respect as a result.)

 

Personally, I don't appreciate having any pressure placed upon me to "behave myself" just to make Ex-Christians look good, or moral, or whatever. I have enough trouble making myself look good. I never signed on to be any Ex-C spokeperson or poster child. Besides, I don't like having my naturally winsome personality hamstrung by trying to pretend to be something I'm not, just to make visiting Xians comfortable while they tell me that "Jesus is Lord." Stupid ideas deserve derision and scorn.

 

However, I would just like to point out, for the record, that I give almost every Christian the same amount of grief when they come here. The ones who have their shit together (Open_Minded and Amanda) withstand the barrage and remain as members in good standing with much respect. Any lesser fucktards, who don't have two brain cells to rub together, typically whine and cry and flee with their tales tucked between their legs. And good riddance. If they can't stand the heat (i.e. don't know what the fuck they're talking about, can't defend their position) then they need to get the hell out of the kitchen. Sometimes being an asshole is the only surefire way to determine this.

 

At least, that's the way I see it.

[Asimov]

I'll be civil when it suits me, not when you ask me to be.

[Knightley]

Hello YMA.

 

While I understand where you're coming from, and even agree with you to some degree, you must understand that what you're proposing is largely a fairy tale utopia. We've had this same discussion dozens of times in the past, and we usually come to the same conclusion. Which is:

 

The members of this forum are NOT some unified, monolithic "group". We are a few thousand individuals, who are coming from different cultures, backgrounds and attitudes. We don't have any formalized rules of engagement or behaviors outlined. It's the best example of a free-for-all that you'll ever see. To expect any one person or collection of people here to accurately represent "Ex-Christians" is not only unfair, but unreasonable. And anyone who thinks that this tiny percentage of humans and our behaviors accurately reflects ALL Ex-Christians, well...they're just stupid.

 

 

 

Good point, I didn't think of that. As a xian, I hated trying to be the perfect little xian. If we should be "representing" anyone, then it should be ourselves. From what I've seen here, drama happens but we usually work it out, no one really holds grudges here, we usually move on. Frankly this place is much better than any xian forum that I've been on, xian forums have a tendecy for "flame wars" much more than "infidel" forums do.

[RHEMtron]

Personally, I'm not a CareBear. I feel no need or desire to be warm and cuddly to rude uninvited guests who make outrageous claims, then ignore or dodge perfectly good questions about those claims. It strikes me as false. I feel no need to understand false people. Especially ones who make no effort to understand us in kind.

 

I agree with you. I was only talking about being nice to those who haven't shown those types of things you were talking about. Maybe Amy did that and I didn't see it.

yeah she's done this! i know she's done it countless times with me. i brought up issues with her several times. i even tried to narrow it down to 1 to 3 points and repeatedly asked her about it. all i got was the "smokescreen" and "emotional" response that white_raven mentioned, everytime.

 

open_mind can relate too. OM asked her a question at the start of the gripe with jesus thread. amy marie never answered it. OM asked the question practically on every page of the thread, but nothing... until finally OM started a new thread just to ask the question again.

 

but dont get me wrong. i agree with you totally. i was civilized with her, and ill continue to do so... even if she breaks the points that white raven posted. but if anyone else wants to be harsh for her, then i dont oppose it. she got what she deserved.

 

*edit*

 

trust me though... we get worse treatment in a "Christian" forum.

[jjacksonRIAB]

Good point, I didn't think of that. As a xian, I hated trying to be the perfect little xian. If we should be "representing" anyone, then it should be ourselves. From what I've seen here, drama happens but we usually work it out, no one really holds grudges here, we usually move on. Frankly this place is much better than any xian forum that I've been on, xian forums have a tendecy for "flame wars" much more than "infidel" forums do.

 

Precisely. We don't have our own "sermon on the mount" with a bold and fiery leader telling us what's what. The mere fact that we are not Christian is reason enough to be hated, and I resent the suggestion that we bring it on ourselves because we don't play grab ass with the facts or respect their intolerance. Why should we seek approval from people who act this way?

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

trust me though... we get worse treatment in a "Christian" forum.

Too true.

[Vigile]

Good point, I didn't think of that. As a xian, I hated trying to be the perfect little xian. If we should be "representing" anyone, then it should be ourselves. From what I've seen here, drama happens but we usually work it out, no one really holds grudges here, we usually move on. Frankly this place is much better than any xian forum that I've been on, xian forums have a tendecy for "flame wars" much more than "infidel" forums do.

 

Precisely. We don't have our own "sermon on the mount" with a bold and fiery leader telling us what's what. The mere fact that we are not Christian is reason enough to be hated, and I resent the suggestion that we bring it on ourselves because we don't play grab ass with the facts or respect their intolerance. Why should we seek approval from people who act this way?

 

Yup, the day I walked out of church was the day I stopped conforming and representing. I make no apologies and will live by my own rules. I resent the idea that I have to put on some phony moral front to make a good name for my group. I also resent the idea that I must be tolerant of intolerance. Homey don't play that.

[Kurari]

I think it's worth pointing out that I have noticed a lot of Ex-Christians bashing other Ex-Christians for their beliefs.

I don't think this is a representitive of Ex-C's as a whole, but it definately makes the individual doing it look like a very immature and insecure idiot.

 

When you tell somebody they are deluded because they do or don't believe in God, it's EXACTLY what the christians have done to us for years. It's the same exact self-righteous ego wanking that most of us didn't find it impressive from the Christians, and it's not anymore impressive from Atheists, Pagans, Buddhists, or Agnostics.

 

Beliefs should never be used as "proof" of anything other than beliefs. Otherwise it's just bad and boring debate.

[Young Mother Atheist]

To clarify, I am not trying to tell anyone what to do but rather bringing up something for thought.

 

I also am not saying to be tolerant of intolerance, as I myself am not.

 

I am not saying that we bring it all on ourselves only suggesting that we might lessen the hatred by showing people that think we are immoral that we do indeed have morals...

 

However, I was not trying to make anyone be any certain way. I very much value my freedom as I imagine you all do.

 

Thanks for responding!

[Vortex]

While I make an effort to be polite, there are just days when I fart lightning and crap thunder. I have had my fair share of "suffering fools" and there are just days when I want to make the fools suffer.

 

I've gone off half-cocked here and later appologized for what I, upon reflection, knew to be an unfair attack.

 

I believe that there is enough of a diversity of opinion and posting style that only a narrow minded individual who *chooses* to focus on the caustic will then determine that all Ex-Christians are boors.

 

Besides, vulgarity is the garlic in the salad of taste.

[Onyx]

I rarely debate yet I try to be civil. However I can be extremely sharp if there are Christian trolls like Emmauel Goldstein II (A truly legendary troll in his obxious class of his own) insulting me.

but I accept Christians when they try to be good people to us and I will be good to them.

But no one can ask me to be good or rude now. It is my decision and mine only.

[jjacksonRIAB]

To clarify, I am not trying to tell anyone what to do but rather bringing up something for thought.

 

I also am not saying to be tolerant of intolerance, as I myself am not.

 

I am not saying that we bring it all on ourselves only suggesting that we might lessen the hatred by showing people that think we are immoral that we do indeed have morals...

 

However, I was not trying to make anyone be any certain way. I very much value my freedom as I imagine you all do.

 

Thanks for responding!

 

I know what you were suggesting, but I ask why?

 

I may be many things, but when you come here and talk to me you're not going to get a dose of phony. That's what the Christian sites are for. Exc is not an echo chamber or a hall of mirrors. It's an orgy of raw human blood, guts and shit.

 

I'm not about to change my behavior to satiate someone's irrational issues with me. If I do that, they win.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

YAM-Ridiculous. For the most part, the posters here reply entirely appropriately and often with a much greater degree of decorum than the situation warrants. I have heard this nonsense so many times and each time it sounds like a self-righteous and unrealistic criticism. Amy Marie is most certainly guilty of the points white raven brought up, which you agreed with but claimed you didn't see in amy marie's posts. The only way you could not have seen it is if you simply didn't read the thread. In which case, where is the substance of your criticism? You just generally don't like it when XCs respond to visitors with anything other than kid gloves? That ain't gonna happen sister. You might want to hang around a bit longer before you go making suggestions about how we could all make the site better for you.

 

 

I just reread the title of this thread. Could you be more presumptuous? A fucking challenge to be moral? I challenge you to not be a dipshit.

[Lycorth]

I'll be civil when it suits me, not when you ask me to be.

 

I second that.

 

Honestly, yes, being nice and kind is a good thing. But kindness isn't something you can dole out like Halloween candy. Some people just don't deserve it straight off. No, Xians may not realize they're trying to sell us on a deathcult that preaches everlasting torture for us or our loved ones if we don't convert to it. But they need to be made to understand that - and if they come here with a snooty attitude, throwing their religion in our faces, and responding with Babble™ verses about how the Lard™ is hiding his wisdom from us foolish ones and giving it only to the special Xians, then why be polite?

 

If Xians just came here and wanted a nice talk, that's fine. But start with the emotionalism and the verse-dropping and the attitude and I'll start biting.

 

So, to reiterate, I'll be nice when I think I ought, and not when I am told to be. If I wanted to be ordered around, I'd be a Xian.

[Matt]

I Think People Are Free To Do What They Want. But when a christian says such things I try and make them see the injustice of their religion etc. In other words I adress them how i choose to and i have chosen to adress them with some level of respect even if i think their ideals are ridiculas. Its up to them to make their presumptions and stereotypes. I know for a fact their are some very nice christians and some real wankers. its up to them if they want to make stereotypes about ex- christians. Their beliefs are so out their that as soon as an ex-christians gets pissed off or frustrated many of them will generalise that all ex-christians are like that. However sometimes like i have read many times the ex-christians will just adress them without insulting them and what not. (sometimes they get pissed off about that lol). So its our choice to act how we want to them and i have chosen my way.

[Young Mother Atheist]

I am now wishing that I could delete this thread as hardly anyone has understood what I intended to say.

 

Again, it was a fucking suggestion- A SUGGESTION! Not a command, not even an attempt at a command. It was something to think about.

 

I don't expect anything from anyone. I only hoped that I could bring up the idea of being civil on the forum...and only when a person deems it necessary. It seemed I was just seeing a crazy amount of bullshitting going on that was taking away from discussions that I was interested in (and I think others were interested in too).

 

I do not in any way think that you should bend over while some Christian tries to witness to you or not accept you and your side. However, I was saying that as long as they are being civil, it would be nice if others would be.

 

And again, this was a SUGGESTION. You don't have to do it and I'm not even saying you have to do it.

 

I wish I could understand how people read things and totally miss what a person is trying to say. I suppose that is why there are so many misunderstandings in this world (religion included!) because we all read things through a different lense.

 

I hope I've cleared this up and that everyone understands I wasn't trying to tell people what to do. I HATE being told what to do so I wouldn't do it to anyone else.

 

And sorry if the title was bad.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Fweethawt]

Exc is not an echo chamber or a hall of mirrors. It's an orgy of raw human blood, guts and shit.

C'mon, JJ!!

 

Did you have to put it that way?

[Asimov]

I am now wishing that I could delete this thread as hardly anyone has understood what I intended to say.

 

Again, it was a fucking suggestion- A SUGGESTION! Not a command, not even an attempt at a command. It was something to think about.

 

The overall tone of your OP wasn't a suggestion. It was a harsh criticism of members discussion methods and personalities.

 

Not even an attempt at a command....right. Maybe not, but it certaintly wasn't a "suggestion".

[Young Mother Atheist]

I am now wishing that I could delete this thread as hardly anyone has understood what I intended to say.

 

Again, it was a fucking suggestion- A SUGGESTION! Not a command, not even an attempt at a command. It was something to think about.

 

The overall tone of your OP wasn't a suggestion. It was a harsh criticism of members discussion methods and personalities.

 

Not even an attempt at a command....right. Maybe not, but it certaintly wasn't a "suggestion".

 

I apologize for bringing it across that way. Thanks for putting up with it and reading it anyway!