Overcame Faith Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 There may be one or more gods and there might not be any deities whatsoever. You mentioned Laurence Kraus. I heard an interview of him today. He said that to say God did it, whatever "it" may be is to answer nothing. He is right. To say God created the universe is to admit you have no idea how the universe came into existence and you are too apathetic to try and find the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 Do you understand that there's 1 very big leap from saying: A god exists to just 1 solitary god exists Do you understand that there's another very big leap from saying: 1 solitary god exists to 'it's the god of the bible' Agree. Just as it is a leap of faith to say many gods exists or Para Brahman or Allah exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Do you understand that there's 1 very big leap from saying: A god exists to just 1 solitary god exists Do you understand that there's another very big leap from saying: 1 solitary god exists to 'it's the god of the bible' Agree. Just as it is a leap of faith to say many gods exists or Para Brahman or Allah exists. Perhaps a leap of faith is asking to be wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 If you want to seriously ask whether or not God exists, you first need to clearly define what is meant by "God". Otherwise the question is meaningless. Further, you err in your question when you state the following: If God does not exists then all I will ever experience and Know will be contained in the few short years of my life and after my death I will be no more. So, if I go with the thought that God does not exists what is the origin of life? Where did the universe come from? Where did life come from? It is not necessarily true that no God implies no afterlife, just as it is not necessarily true that if there is a God, there is also an afterlife. Moreover, you seem to be trying to establish that your God is the origin of life. Then in a breath you shift from this to the origin of the universe. These are non-equivalent roles. The origin of life need not be the same as the origin of the universe. This is why it is imperative that you first define what you mean by "God". Then, and only then, will you be equipped to present arguments and/or evidence that your "God" actually exists. "If you want to seriously ask whether or not God exists, you first need to clearly define what is meant by "God". Otherwise the question is meaningless." Understood disillusioned. To me I first started with just a general definition of God as the creator and ruler of the universe. I started there because I thought it would be better than just trying to start with just one name and message of a deity. After that I narrowed it down to the God expressed in the Bible. "It is not necessarily true that no God implies no afterlife, just as it is not necessarily true that if there is a God, there is also an afterlife." "The origin of life need not be the same as the origin of the universe." If you take it all back to square one, to me they are the same. Not that life came from the moment matter formed, but it is from matter that builds the formations of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I think the RNP is right. Whether god exists really doesn't matter. It has really been known by people who have been willing to use their intellect that the biblical god and other "revealed" gods do not exist for several hundred years. Further, there Is absolutely no evidence that any supernatural being has interfered in our world in any way that concerns life on earth. Speculation about the supernatural has brought more trouble on earth than all the diseases that ever existed. So let's let that rest for a few centuries for the good of us all. bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I think the RNP is right. Whether god exists really doesn't matter. It has really been known by people who have been willing to use their intellect that the biblical god and other "revealed" gods do not exist for several hundred years. Further, there Is absolutely no evidence that any supernatural being has interfered in our world in any way that concerns life on earth. Speculation about the supernatural has brought more trouble on earth than all the diseases that ever existed. So let's let that rest for a few centuries for the good of us all. bill I like that, Bill. "Willing to use their intellect". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 Ironhorse, do you agree that it's not simply a question of a creator's existence? Don't we really need to ask if a creator exists in a way that affects how we live our lives today? I might decide that God exists in the deist fashion so that it really is only a minor curiosity at this point in time like studying dinosaur bones. I might decide that God exists in some Christian fashion so that I need to do whatever. I might decide that God exists in a Hindu fashion so that I need to do something else. The reason we should ask if God's supposed existence matters today is because we can come closer to answering this question. We can examine claims for miracles, we can study character changes in religious people, etc. In fact we can change the question to be: Does any religion help people, and if so why does it help people? (We can skip-over the question of God for now.) Ironhorse, do you agree that it's not simply a question of a creator's existence? Don't we really need to ask if a creator exists in a way that affects how we live our lives today? I agree. For me, that is one of the steps I took after reaching my first conclusion. "I might decide that God exists in the deist fashion so that it really is only a minor curiosity at this point in time like studying dinosaur bones. I might decide that God exists in some Christian fashion so that I need to do whatever. I might decide that God exists in a Hindu fashion so that I need to do something else." Again I agree. How we respond to this in our lives will be reflected by the deity who conclude is true. "The reason we should ask if God's supposed existence matters today is because we can come closer to answering this question. We can examine claims for miracles, we can study character changes in religious people, etc." I agree. "In fact we can change the question to be: Does any religion help people, and if so why does it help people?" I believe almost all ( I say almost because they might a few without any truth)...but I believe all religions contain some truth. Most religions do have teachings on behavior towards others that I do believe have do good in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 Kind of like asking, "Does Quetzalcoatl exist?" Not only is it not a "big question," it isn't even a question. YHWH was the imaginary construction of a deity figure by tribes in Israel, just as Quetzalcoatl was the imaginary construction of a deity by Mesoamerican tribes. "Not only is it not a "big question," it isn't even a question." No, it is a question. 'Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?" is a question. As in all questions, they do deserve a reply. You seem to have made yours. I respect your right to reach your own conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 THE REAL BıG QUESTION How do I make my living. Period. Second BIG question How do I make my living worth living. Period. Third BIG question How do I make my living worth living affecting others to have their living worth living. Period. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 "In fact we can change the question to be: Does any religion help people, and if so why does it help people?" I believe almost all ( I say almost because they might a few without any truth)...but I believe all religions contain some truth. Most religions do have teachings on behavior towards others that I do believe have do good in the world. On what grounds do you "believe all religions contain some truth"? Remember we are talking about "truth" here, not teachings on behaviour. They also exist outside of religions, of course. Do you believe that all the teachings on behaviour contained in xianity are helpful/do good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Kind of like asking, "Does Quetzalcoatl exist?" Not only is it not a "big question," it isn't even a question. YHWH was the imaginary construction of a deity figure by tribes in Israel, just as Quetzalcoatl was the imaginary construction of a deity by Mesoamerican tribes. "Not only is it not a "big question," it isn't even a question." No, it is a question. 'Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?" is a question. The FSM was invented to show that this question has exactly the same value and usefulness as the question "do you believe in god?". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 The Big Question Does God exists? This, I think, is the big question in life. I think the bigger question is "what should I do with my life, the only life I have?" Let's not spoil it or waste it. Let's make it something useful, God or no-God. You're getting wonderfully wise in your old age sir. Glad to see your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayard Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 That question is too easy to be called "The Big Question." What about the 2015 NCAA March Madness bracket? Can we ask about that instead? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 If you want to seriously ask whether or not God exists, you first need to clearly define what is meant by "God". Otherwise the question is meaningless. Further, you err in your question when you state the following: If God does not exists then all I will ever experience and Know will be contained in the few short years of my life and after my death I will be no more. So, if I go with the thought that God does not exists what is the origin of life? Where did the universe come from? Where did life come from? It is not necessarily true that no God implies no afterlife, just as it is not necessarily true that if there is a God, there is also an afterlife. Moreover, you seem to be trying to establish that your God is the origin of life. Then in a breath you shift from this to the origin of the universe. These are non-equivalent roles. The origin of life need not be the same as the origin of the universe. This is why it is imperative that you first define what you mean by "God". Then, and only then, will you be equipped to present arguments and/or evidence that your "God" actually exists. "If you want to seriously ask whether or not God exists, you first need to clearly define what is meant by "God". Otherwise the question is meaningless." Understood disillusioned. To me I first started with just a general definition of God as the creator and ruler of the universe. I started there because I thought it would be better than just trying to start with just one name and message of a deity. After that I narrowed it down to the God expressed in the Bible. You define God as the creator and ruler of the Universe. This is a fairly broad definition. In order to demonstrate that this God exists, you must show that the Universe was created and that it is ruled. Further, you must show that there is precisely one creator, and precisely one ruler, and that these beings are necessarily the same. None of these statements must be true. Any of them might be true, but you need to demonstrate each of them in order to answer your question. To move from "creator and ruler" to "God expressed in the Bible" would seem to me to be an extremely daunting task. "It is not necessarily true that no God implies no afterlife, just as it is not necessarily true that if there is a God, there is also an afterlife." "The origin of life need not be the same as the origin of the universe." If you take it all back to square one, to me they are the same. Not that life came from the moment matter formed, but it is from matter that builds the formations of life. It seems to me that you are now speaking of the cause of the Universe. This is not consistent with your definition. A "cause" need not be a "creator". Furthermore, it has not been established that the Universe has a cause. It has not even been established that the Universe began to exist. I'm afraid you will have to do better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 The Big Question Does God exists? This, I think, is the big question in life. Of course Eminem exists. Haven't you seen photos of him or listened to his music? I've listened to his music. I really liked the film 8 Mile. He does a lot of good with his charity The Marshall Mathers Foundation, that helps disadvantaged youth. "I definitely pray a lot more than I used to. I don't feel like I'm crazy wacky religious. But I do believe in God, and I do pray." ~Eminem, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 The Big Question Does God exists? This, I think, is the big question in life. Of course Eminem exists. Haven't you seen photos of him or listened to his music? I've listened to his music. I really liked the film 8 Mile. He does a lot of good with his charity The Marshall Mathers Foundation, that helps disadvantaged youth. "I definitely pray a lot more than I used to. I don't feel like I'm crazy wacky religious. But I do believe in God, and I do pray." ~Eminem, 2009 He too was raised in a religion-dominated culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 well, ironhorse is evasive, not mentioning the christian god he believes created the world, because he knows it can open another can of worms,,,,, he mentions the problem of the theories purported by some scientists,,,,, my take is there is a creator created the universe with all its energy and is no more,,,,,, i have no proof but it is at least better than a outright lie about a talking snake and 7 days creation in the biblical god come on ironhorse, just tell that your fucking god the biblical god created the universe and let us tear your ass apart and not hiding behind ambiguity,,,, I am not being unclear. I am explaining what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 well, ironhorse is evasive, not mentioning the christian god he believes created the world, because he knows it can open another can of worms,,,,, he mentions the problem of the theories purported by some scientists,,,,, my take is there is a creator created the universe with all its energy and is no more,,,,,, i have no proof but it is at least better than a outright lie about a talking snake and 7 days creation in the biblical god come on ironhorse, just tell that your fucking god the biblical god created the universe and let us tear your ass apart and not hiding behind ambiguity,,,, I am not being unclear. I am explaining what I believe. Being unclear and explaining what you believe are in no way mutually exclusive. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 The Big Question Does God exists? This, I think, is the big question in life. Well, I didn't want to say anything, since whenever I do this people just won't leave me alone with questions and such, but... It's me. I'm God.* I made everything, including you, ironhorse. Now I'm going to get barraged with prayer requests from everyone here, so it looks like it'll be a busy day for me, so I should get going. But I just wanted to clear that up for you, since you seemed concerned about it, and all. *And this is just as plausible as your logical "proof" (or whatever the heck it is that you were attempting in your first post) of god. Can you please use your omnipotence and omnibenevolence to make IH answer BAA's questions? I have tried to answer all of BAA's questions. I'm not perfect. If I have missed one or a dozen, let me know. But do not ask me questions I have previously answered. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 The Big Question Does God exists? This, I think, is the big question in life. … It might be a good idea to define "God" before asking the question. … If God does not exists then all I will ever experience and Know will be contained in the few short years of my life and after my death I will be no more. … Yes, that would appear to be the case from the empirical evidence available. But there may be something to you, as a unique individual, that survives death. It is a possibility, remote as it may be. Unless, of course, your definition of "God" (see above) includes the sole ability to extend your unique individual existence beyond death. … So, if I go with the thought that God does not exists what is the origin of life? Where did the universe come from? Where did life come from? … Yes, assuming this God of yours does not exist in the first place, then such questions will arise. Of course, your definition of "God" would need to include the sole abilities to create a universe and to create carbon based life. I had in mind a general definition of God as the creator and ruler of the universe. I started there because I thought it would be better than just trying to start with just one name and message of a deity. After that I narrowed it down to the God expressed in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 The Big Question Has Ironhorse started this new thread up as a way of getting out of his promise to answer ALL the questions put to him? Actually BAA, I got the idea the other day when I was reading the thread Why Don't Christian Apologists Use Testimonials It reminded me of my experiences and thoughts years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God. I would argue that this statement is not entirely accurate. I'm not sure how to comment. Can you explain why you think my statement is inaccurate? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 You believe in God and we don't. Nothing more to say, really... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 17, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 17, 2014 So, if I go with the thought that God does not exists what is the origin of life? Where did the universe come from? Where did life come from? So if you don't know where the universe came from, assuming it actually did come from somewhere, you can't just say, "I don't know." You may say it is your idea of God just to have a pretend answer, but you really still don't know. Deist types who believe in some sort of god don't consider whether a god really exists or not to be The Big Question. Only religious people who hold a belief in a specific god tailored to their own psychological/emotional needs consider this The Big Question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 The Big Question Has Ironhorse started this new thread up as a way of getting out of his promise to answer ALL the questions put to him? bornagainathiest, Since January I have answered many of your questions. You may not have agreed with my answers, but that's fine. That's the way it goes. We disagree. I'm not without error. I may have missed some. If I did, I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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