The Big Question

[ironhorse]

Ironhorse,

 

Your "beliefs" are not relevant, at least to the question you presented in the OP, "Does God exist?"

 

Try turning off your egotistical and self-centered desire to express your religious beliefs.  I don't care what you believe.  What's left after that?  Do you have a rational argument?  Do you have evidence to support a rational argument?  If so, please present it.

 

All here already are aware of what you believe.  I suspect no one cares what you believe, except you.

 

 

"All here already are aware of what you believe.  I suspect no one cares what you believe, except you."

 

I don't claim to speak for all here.

 

I'm only expressing my beliefs which is what you are also doing.

[duderonomy]

Krauss must be the next Paul.

[sdelsolray]

 

Ironhorse,

 

Your "beliefs" are not relevant, at least to the question you presented in the OP, "Does God exist?"

 

Try turning off your egotistical and self-centered desire to express your religious beliefs.  I don't care what you believe.  What's left after that?  Do you have a rational argument?  Do you have evidence to support a rational argument?  If so, please present it.

 

All here already are aware of what you believe.  I suspect no one cares what you believe, except you.

 

 

"All here already are aware of what you believe.  I suspect no one cares what you believe, except you."

 

I don't claim to speak for all here.

 

I'm only expressing my beliefs which is what you are also doing.

 

No so fast, Mr. Wishful Thinker.  Your attempt to equate rational thinking with wishful thinking is a nonstarter.  You're back to your infantile and passive-aggressive nonsense.

 

Let's revisit my belief that your expression of your religious beliefs, as to the question (you raised), Does God exists (sic)?", is your own egotistical and self-centered demonstration.  I claim your personal beliefs are not relevant to that question.  Do you have any rational argument?  Do you have any evidence to support such an argument?  I suspect you will continue with your self-centered and irrational beliefs.  That's apparently all you have.  You call it faith.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Ironhorse,

 

Your "beliefs" are not relevant, at least to the question you presented in the OP, "Does God exist?"

 

Try turning off your egotistical and self-centered desire to express your religious beliefs.  I don't care what you believe.  What's left after that?  Do you have a rational argument?  Do you have evidence to support a rational argument?  If so, please present it.

 

All here already are aware of what you believe.  I suspect no one cares what you believe, except you.

 

 

"All here already are aware of what you believe.  I suspect no one cares what you believe, except you."

 

I don't claim to speak for all here.

 

I'm only expressing my beliefs which is what you are also doing.

 

Let's test sdelsolray's hypothesis.  Would anyone who cares what IH believes please say so?

 

(BTW sdelsolray, in the Den, you can speak for me anytime).

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

The Big Question

Does God exists?

This, I think, is the big question in life.

 

Well, I didn't want to say anything, since whenever I do this people just won't leave me alone with questions and such, but...

 

It's me. I'm God.*

 

I made everything, including you, ironhorse.

 

Now I'm going to get barraged with prayer requests from everyone here, so it looks like it'll be a busy day for me, so I should get going. But I just wanted to clear that up for you, since you seemed concerned about it, and all.

 

*And this is just as plausible as your logical "proof" (or whatever the heck it is that you were attempting in your first post) of god.

 

Can you please use your omnipotence and omnibenevolence to make IH answer BAA's questions?

 

 

 

I have tried to answer all of BAA's questions.

 

Actually, you PROMISED to answer all of them.

 

I'm not perfect. 

 

Imperfect people should still keep their promises.  

The Bible records many imperfect people (Abraham, Moses, Peter, Paul, etc.) making and keeping their promises.

 

If I have missed one or a dozen, let me know.

 

I have been... for weeks.  But you keep on dodging.

 

But do not ask me questions I have previously answered. 

 

I won't.

I'll just keep on holding you to your promise.

 

Thanks

 

 

Fyi, Ironhorse...

 

...the longer you fail to keep to your promise, the more you'll push others (like LongWayRound) away from Christ.

 

If you're so selfish that this means nothing to you, then please carry on.

[bornagainathiest]

 

The Big Question

 

Has Ironhorse started this new thread up as a way of getting out of his promise to answer ALL the questions put to him?

 

 

Actually BAA,

 

I got the idea the other day when I was reading the thread Why Don't Christian Apologists Use

Testimonials

 

But this Big Question idea clearly couldn't wait until you fulfilled your promise to answer ALL of the question put to you.

 

It reminded me of my experiences and thoughts years ago.

 

What a shame your thoughts and experiences have nothing to do with the scientific facts concerning your Big Question. 

 

[bornagainathiest]

Science's answer to the question, "Does God Exist?" will always be the same.  Unknown.

 

Science's answer to the question, "Did the universe have a supernatural Creator?" will always be the same.  Unknown.

 

Science's answer to the question, "How did the universe originate?" is... currently unknown and possibly unknowable. 

.

.

.

So why aren't you satisfied with science's answers, Ironhorse?

[directionless]

Let's test sdelsolray's hypothesis.  Would anyone who cares what IH believes please say so?

I'm mildly interested in what IH believes, but I'm very interested in why IH continues to believe.

 

Obviously he started to believe in Christianity through childhood indoctrination. He went through some doubts in his early 20s, but decided to continue with Christianity.

 

Why does he continue to believe? Here are some possibilities:

 

(1) He doesn't want to rock-the-boat for other family members that believe?

 

(2) He is keeping his fire insurance (against hell)?

 

(3) His sense of self worth comes from his Christian activities?

 

(4) His social network depends on Christianity.

 

The most interesting possibility is this:

 

(5) He experiences things (evidence) that make him believe Christianity is true.

 

Option (5) is what I really want to hear about from IH or any other Christians. Why do they never talk about evidence?

 

BTW I understand that Christians might be reluctant to share their testimonials and risk seeing these experiences ridiculed by skeptics. HOWEVER, the Christians might be able to talk in general terms about the types of experiences that provide their evidence. Otherwise the Christians appear to all be brainwashed or intellectually cowardly for believing with no evidence at all.

[♦ ficino ♦]

When you push this whole debate into the tiniest hole, it always shouts back no proof.

Krauss is doing his best to prove it, but he admits so far that he can't explain it beyond proof.

 

Whatever you or I or others decide to believe concerning God and this universe...its faith.

Again, IH converts "I don't think there is a God/I don't see evidence for a God" to "I have faith there is no God." Sigh.

 

I've given up asking IH for reasons why I should revert to "faith" in his deity.

 

Ex-C: Ironhorse, on what reasons should I think that Christianity is true?

 

IH: I believe it's true.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Option (5) is what I really want to hear about from IH or any other Christians. Why do they never talk about evidence?

 

BTW I understand that Christians might be reluctant to share their testimonials and risk seeing these experiences ridiculed by skeptics. HOWEVER, the Christians might be able to talk in general terms about the types of experiences that provide their evidence. Otherwise the Christians appear to all be brainwashed or intellectually cowardly for believing with no evidence at all.

I used to have a mixture of reasons for faith:

-- in order to exist, contingent things must be created and sustained by a being that exists necessarily

-- miracles

-- historical claims, esp. the argument that the apostles would not have been tortured for what they knew was a lie

-- my own experiences: answered prayer; feeling God's presence, esp. in ecstatic moments like receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

-- generally that being a Christian rocked, and being a non-Christian sucked

 

I got various psychological and social benefits, too, but I'm not considering them "reasons" right now. I found a centeredness in the better parts of Catholic tradition, but I can't say that effect is unique to Christianity. Many religious and philosophical traditions have that, or versions of it.

[Thackerie]

Ironhorse,

 

Your "beliefs" are not relevant, at least to the question you presented in the OP, "Does God exist?"

 

Try turning off your egotistical and self-centered desire to express your religious beliefs.  I don't care what you believe.  What's left after that?  Do you have a rational argument?  Do you have evidence to support a rational argument?  If so, please present it.

 

All here already are aware of what you believe.  I suspect no one cares what you believe, except you.

 

THIS! I've already given out all my reputation points this morning to other excellent responses in this thread, but I owe you one.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Here's the Big Question as far as I'm concerned:  So what?  

 

If definitive evidence of the existence of a god were suddenly produced tomorrow, would it change my daily commute?  Would my salary increase?  Would my tap water suddenly be turned into whiskey?  Would I suddenly be compelled to shop for clothes at Dillards instead of Goodwill?  Would it alter my diet, or the volume of ethanol I consume?

 

How exactly would the daily minutiae of my life be transformed by proof of god's existence?  Given that "god" has contributed nothing to the mundane aspects of my personal existence, how would my life be any different because I suddenly had the evidence that he really is there?  

 

Or would god suddenly start actually doing something once his existence had been proved and he could no longer hide behind the delusion of "faith"?

 

Really, what difference does the existence or non-existence of god make?

 

"Here's the Big Question as far as I'm concerned:  So what?"

 

I will agree that is an expansion of the big question.

 

"If definitive evidence of the existence of a god were suddenly produced tomorrow, would it change my daily commute?  Would my salary increase?  Would my tap water suddenly be turned into whiskey?  Would I suddenly be compelled to shop for clothes at Dillards instead of Goodwill?  Would it alter my diet, or the volume of ethanol I consume?"

 

I see your point, but added material things or miracle interventions in my life are not what I am looking for.

Nor the absent or lack of them influence my belief in God.

 

"Or would god suddenly start actually doing something once his existence had been proved and he could no longer hide behind the delusion of "faith"?

 

I believe God is doing more than I can ever imagine right now.

 

What do you want God to do? Intervene constantly in your daily life?

 

Now, we've been over this before, Ironhorse, many times.  We've answered this question before, many times.  However, I am willing to answer it, yet again. 

 

To begin with, what I want god to do is irrelevant, given that he does nothing anyway.  This is precisely why prayer is so ineffective and useless.  Multitudes of people throughout the centuries have wanted god to do something and they were either disappointed when god did nothing, or they found some way of continuing to delude themselves when god did nothing, or something happened by coincidence and they attributed it to god, despite the fact that god did nothing.

 

Secondly, it is not necessary for god to constantly intervene in my daily life.  This is not the point behind my post.  The point of my post is that literally nothing in my personal life would change just because someone offered me definitive proof of god's existence.  The reason nothing would change is because god doesn't actually do anything to begin with, and that would not change just because he knew that we knew that he was real.

 

Third, simply believing that god is doing more than you could ask or even imagine, doesn't demonstrate that god is actually doing more than you could ask or even imagine.  It only demonstrates your unwillingness to examine the world and ask yourself, "What would this world look like if I didn't believe god existed?"  If you could objectively interact with that question (which actually has more relevance to the daily minutiae of your life than the "Big" Question), you'd be much closer to understanding the world as we understand it.

 

Finally, there are plenty of people who already believe that god intervenes in their daily lives on a constant basis, doing everything from finding them a parking spot, to taking the lives of their children because "he needs another angel in heaven" (because, you know, omnipotence doesn't mean he can just go around creating more angels as he needs them).  The fact that "god" intervenes in so many lives isn't proof of his existence; it is only proof of the awesome ability of the human brain to willfully suspend disbelief.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God.

I would argue that this statement is not entirely accurate.

 

 

I'm not sure how to comment.

 

Can you explain why you think my statement is inaccurate?

 

Thanks

 

Others have already answered this question in my stead.  However, to reiterate what they have said, beliefs are not a matter of choice. 

 

People believe what makes the most sense to them at any given point in time.  Things tend to make more sense to a person if the cultural/social influences around them are conducive of those things making sense.  Things are especially more readily acceptable as making sense if a person is indoctrinated from childhood to believe those things make sense. 

 

Even if a person goes through a period of questioning, the pressure of cultural/societal influences combined with childhood indoctrination is usually enough to push said person back to a position of belief, with the added (but false) satisfaction that said person chose to believe after critical examination.

 

Sound familiar?

[par4dcourse]

The same tired apologetics as dozens of xians in hundreds of threads before. Why hasn't god provided some sound arguments by now?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

The same tired apologetics as dozens of xians in hundreds of threads before. Why hasn't god provided some sound arguments by now?

 

Maybe God is too busy masturbating or something.

[directionless]

Now, we've been over this before, Ironhorse, many times.  We've answered this question before, many times.  However, I am willing to answer it, yet again. 

 

To begin with, what I want god to do is irrelevant, given that he does nothing anyway.  This is precisely why prayer is so ineffective and useless.  Multitudes of people throughout the centuries have wanted god to do something and they were either disappointed when god did nothing, or they found some way of continuing to delude themselves when god did nothing, or something happened by coincidence and they attributed it to god, despite the fact that god did nothing.

 

Secondly, it is not necessary for god to constantly intervene in my daily life.  This is not the point behind my post.  The point of my post is that literally nothing in my personal life would change just because someone offered me definitive proof of god's existence.  The reason nothing would change is because god doesn't actually do anything to begin with, and that would not change just because he knew that we knew that he was real.

 

Third, simply believing that god is doing more than you could ask or even imagine, doesn't demonstrate that god is actually doing more than you could ask or even imagine.  It only demonstrates your unwillingness to examine the world and ask yourself, "What would this world look like if I didn't believe god existed?"  If you could objectively interact with that question (which actually has more relevance to the daily minutiae of your life than the "Big" Question), you'd be much closer to understanding the world as we understand it.

 

Finally, there are plenty of people who already believe that god intervenes in their daily lives on a constant basis, doing everything from finding them a parking spot, to taking the lives of their children because "he needs another angel in heaven" (because, you know, omnipotence doesn't mean he can just go around creating more angels as he needs them).  The fact that "god" intervenes in so many lives isn't proof of his existence; it is only proof of the awesome ability of the human brain to willfully suspend disbelief.

I don't follow what you are saying. Here are some ways I might understand you:

 

(1) Observation indicates that God never intervenes even if he exists?

 

(2) God would only intervene according to his master plan and would ignore the imperfect desires of humans?

 

(3) God may have created the universe but he can no longer intervene today (deism)?

[directionless]

 

Option (5) is what I really want to hear about from IH or any other Christians. Why do they never talk about evidence?

 

BTW I understand that Christians might be reluctant to share their testimonials and risk seeing these experiences ridiculed by skeptics. HOWEVER, the Christians might be able to talk in general terms about the types of experiences that provide their evidence. Otherwise the Christians appear to all be brainwashed or intellectually cowardly for believing with no evidence at all.

I used to have a mixture of reasons for faith:

-- in order to exist, contingent things must be created and sustained by a being that exists necessarily

-- miracles

-- historical claims, esp. the argument that the apostles would not have been tortured for what they knew was a lie

-- my own experiences: answered prayer; feeling God's presence, esp. in ecstatic moments like receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

-- generally that being a Christian rocked, and being a non-Christian sucked

 

I got various psychological and social benefits, too, but I'm not considering them "reasons" right now. I found a centeredness in the better parts of Catholic tradition, but I can't say that effect is unique to Christianity. Many religious and philosophical traditions have that, or versions of it.

 

Thanks, that is like a breath of fresh air. Why don't people ever seem to discuss those issues you mentioned? IMO those are the reasons that people believe or eventually disbelieve, but we never debate them. Christians never talk about them. Atheists never talk about them. All we talk about is philosophy and theology and history.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Now, we've been over this before, Ironhorse, many times.  We've answered this question before, many times.  However, I am willing to answer it, yet again. 

 

To begin with, what I want god to do is irrelevant, given that he does nothing anyway.  This is precisely why prayer is so ineffective and useless.  Multitudes of people throughout the centuries have wanted god to do something and they were either disappointed when god did nothing, or they found some way of continuing to delude themselves when god did nothing, or something happened by coincidence and they attributed it to god, despite the fact that god did nothing.

 

Secondly, it is not necessary for god to constantly intervene in my daily life.  This is not the point behind my post.  The point of my post is that literally nothing in my personal life would change just because someone offered me definitive proof of god's existence.  The reason nothing would change is because god doesn't actually do anything to begin with, and that would not change just because he knew that we knew that he was real.

 

Third, simply believing that god is doing more than you could ask or even imagine, doesn't demonstrate that god is actually doing more than you could ask or even imagine.  It only demonstrates your unwillingness to examine the world and ask yourself, "What would this world look like if I didn't believe god existed?"  If you could objectively interact with that question (which actually has more relevance to the daily minutiae of your life than the "Big" Question), you'd be much closer to understanding the world as we understand it.

 

Finally, there are plenty of people who already believe that god intervenes in their daily lives on a constant basis, doing everything from finding them a parking spot, to taking the lives of their children because "he needs another angel in heaven" (because, you know, omnipotence doesn't mean he can just go around creating more angels as he needs them).  The fact that "god" intervenes in so many lives isn't proof of his existence; it is only proof of the awesome ability of the human brain to willfully suspend disbelief.

I don't follow what you are saying. Here are some ways I might understand you:

 

(1) Observation indicates that God never intervenes even if he exists?

 

(2) God would only intervene according to his master plan and would ignore the imperfect desires of humans?

 

(3) God may have created the universe but he can no longer intervene today (deism)?

 

Option (1) best expresses the intention of my post.  Even if a god exists, there is no observable evidence that he/she/it does anything.  This would be unlikely to change, even if proof of a god's existence were to become available.

[Roz]

I'm still puzzled as to people capitalizing the first letter in god.  Which god are you talking about?

[directionless]

I'm still puzzled as to people capitalizing the first letter in god.  Which god are you talking about?

For me:

 

"God" means some preeminent spirit that probably created the universe, might observe/manage the universe, and might even want people to know him as a person.

 

"god" means a polytheistic god like Zeus.

 

"Biblegod" or "Yahweh" means the character in the Bible stories that were probably only rarely inspired by actual encounters with "God". I try to use "Biblegod" because that makes it more clear what I mean.

 

Probably I should use a different word from "God" that doesn't imply "Biblegod".

[Roz]

Oh ok, thanks for that clarification

[mymistake]

 

The same tired apologetics as dozens of xians in hundreds of threads before. Why hasn't god provided some sound arguments by now?

 

Maybe God is too busy masturbating or something.

 

 

 

God is building the character of babies by killing them.  AIDS, starvation, SIDS, flu, malaria, birth defects - God has so many character building tools in his tool box.  God loves babies so much.

[par4dcourse]

Xian arguments all eventually boil down to "I feel it in my heart". Funny thing, the heart is much better at feeling than reasoning.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Xian arguments all eventually boil down to "I feel it in my heart". Funny thing, the heart is much better at feeling than reasoning.

Actually the heart is much better at pumping blood than feeling or reasoning.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

Option (5) is what I really want to hear about from IH or any other Christians. Why do they never talk about evidence?

 

BTW I understand that Christians might be reluctant to share their testimonials and risk seeing these experiences ridiculed by skeptics. HOWEVER, the Christians might be able to talk in general terms about the types of experiences that provide their evidence. Otherwise the Christians appear to all be brainwashed or intellectually cowardly for believing with no evidence at all.

I used to have a mixture of reasons for faith:

-- in order to exist, contingent things must be created and sustained by a being that exists necessarily

-- miracles

-- historical claims, esp. the argument that the apostles would not have been tortured for what they knew was a lie

-- my own experiences: answered prayer; feeling God's presence, esp. in ecstatic moments like receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

-- generally that being a Christian rocked, and being a non-Christian sucked

 

I got various psychological and social benefits, too, but I'm not considering them "reasons" right now. I found a centeredness in the better parts of Catholic tradition, but I can't say that effect is unique to Christianity. Many religious and philosophical traditions have that, or versions of it.

 

Thanks, that is like a breath of fresh air. Why don't people ever seem to discuss those issues you mentioned? IMO those are the reasons that people believe or eventually disbelieve, but we never debate them. Christians never talk about them. Atheists never talk about them. All we talk about is philosophy and theology and history.

 

 

The reason I don't discuss the kind of issues ficino mentioned is because I have assessed their validity for me and found them wanting.  Using his reasons as an example (as they were similar to my own) I have satisfied myself that:

 

- things can exist without having been created by a "god" or "spiritual" force of some kind

- miracle claims don't stack up

- xian historical claims such as the apostles being tortured and killed for their beliefs don't stack up

- what I previously interpreted as answered prayer was in fact confirmation bias

- what I previously interpreted as feeling god's presence was likely an increase in endorphins

- my previous belief that being a xian rocked and being a non xian sucked was based on cultural stuff and wasn't true.

 

The reason I talk about history is because it helps me assess whether or not the claims in the bible are true.  And these days I care more about whether things are true than whether they feel good or sound believable.