Which Is Greater

[bornagainathiest]

That's interesting, Prof.

 

You're saying that subjectivity destroys trust between people.

 

Making trusting and grace-filled relationships... impossible.

 

That right?

 

BAA.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

That's interesting, Prof.

 

You're saying that subjectivity destroys trust between people.

 

Making trusting and grace-filled relationships... impossible.

 

That right?

 

BAA.

Pretty much, in a nutshell.  

 

If End's subjectivity leads us to find his thoughts untrustworthy, then it only stands to reason that the very same subjectivity would lead End to mistrust our thoughts.  

 

Religion destroying relationships right before our very eyes.

 

Unless, of course, End does trust us because he has objectively examined our behavior, intellect, actions, and thought processes and objectively found them to be trustworthy.  In which case... Nah, he'd never admit to it.

[bornagainathiest]

 

That's interesting, Prof.

 

You're saying that subjectivity destroys trust between people.

 

Making trusting and grace-filled relationships... impossible.

 

That right?

 

BAA.

Pretty much, in a nutshell.  

 

If End's subjectivity leads us to find his thoughts untrustworthy, then it only stands to reason that the very same subjectivity would lead End to mistrust our thoughts.  

 

Religion destroying relationships right before our very eyes.

 

Unless, of course, End does trust us because he has objectively examined our behavior, intellect, actions, and thought processes and objectively found them to be trustworthy.  In which case... Nah, he'd never admit to it.

 

 

 

Prof,

 

Is that End's religion (Biblical Christianity) destroying relationships before our very eyes?

 

Or is that End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity, destroying relationships before our very eyes?

.

.

.

I ask because there seems to be a difference.

 

Could you clarify and/or correct please?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[randomatheist]

Which is greater, your personal need to belong and be accepted in a small group or not belong and accepted in a larger group.

 

Thx.

Living and thinking for yourself is greater than both.

 

Ur welcome.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

That's interesting, Prof.

 

You're saying that subjectivity destroys trust between people.

 

Making trusting and grace-filled relationships... impossible.

 

That right?

 

BAA.

Pretty much, in a nutshell.  

 

If End's subjectivity leads us to find his thoughts untrustworthy, then it only stands to reason that the very same subjectivity would lead End to mistrust our thoughts.  

 

Religion destroying relationships right before our very eyes.

 

Unless, of course, End does trust us because he has objectively examined our behavior, intellect, actions, and thought processes and objectively found them to be trustworthy.  In which case... Nah, he'd never admit to it.

 

 

 

Prof,

 

Is that End's religion (Biblical Christianity) destroying relationships before our very eyes?

 

Or is that End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity, destroying relationships before our very eyes?

.

.

.

I ask because there seems to be a difference.

 

Could you clarify and/or correct please?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

That's a good point of clarification, BAA.  It seems to me that both would be true.  End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity is what is actually destroying trust.  However, I'd bet my eye-teeth that said belief is tied to his religious convictions.  In other words, if he wasn't so indoctrinated; he'd be more open-minded.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

 

That's interesting, Prof.

 

You're saying that subjectivity destroys trust between people.

 

Making trusting and grace-filled relationships... impossible.

 

That right?

 

BAA.

Pretty much, in a nutshell.  

 

If End's subjectivity leads us to find his thoughts untrustworthy, then it only stands to reason that the very same subjectivity would lead End to mistrust our thoughts.  

 

Religion destroying relationships right before our very eyes.

 

Unless, of course, End does trust us because he has objectively examined our behavior, intellect, actions, and thought processes and objectively found them to be trustworthy.  In which case... Nah, he'd never admit to it.

 

 

 

Prof,

 

Is that End's religion (Biblical Christianity) destroying relationships before our very eyes?

 

Or is that End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity, destroying relationships before our very eyes?

.

.

.

I ask because there seems to be a difference.

 

Could you clarify and/or correct please?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

That's a good point of clarification, BAA.  It seems to me that both would be true.  End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity is what is actually destroying trust.  However, I'd bet my eye-teeth that said belief is tied to his religious convictions.  In other words, if he wasn't so indoctrinated; he'd be more open-minded.

 

I think it's simpler than that, Prof.  If End3 wasn't so full of shit and full of himself (they appear to be the same thing) he'd be more open minded.

[Guest end3]

Here's the problem, End3.  Everything is subjective.  That means everything you say, everything you think, every positive claim, sweeping statement, or simple opinion you give is, by your own definition, subjective.  This means that none of these things has been considered objectively.  As a result, nothing that comes from you will be trustworthy to anyone who is objective.

 

But here's the other side of that coin.  If I (make the same mistake twice) offer you my own ideas, to which you claim to be open (and we know already that's a lie), I do so knowing that, in your mind, everything is subjective.  The result of this is that, even if I give you an objective idea of the objective reality around you (as I did in the "Grace Is The Knowledge..." thread), you will assume it is subjective, because your subjective beliefs (faith) will not allow you to do otherwise, despite the fact that alternatives have been pointed out repeatedly.  Since you will make this assumption, the only logical conclusion for you will be that my idea, being "subjective", is also untrustworthy.

 

You speak of "grace and relationships"; but now, because of your subjective beliefs (faith), we come to the point at which we can no longer trust one another.  This isn't a problem with me; nor is it a problem with you.  The problem is that your faith stands between you and I (and the other members of this site).

 

Would you continue to allow your faith to stand between yourself and those who care about you?

Was traveling yesterday. No, y'all are being something...can't think of the right word atm. I am capable of objective thinking and have told y'all that several times....have offered to participate even. But with that said, even my best objective efforts are still subjective by definition.

 

If y'all would like to keep playing games, that's fine, just leave me out.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Here's the problem, End3.  Everything is subjective.  That means everything you say, everything you think, every positive claim, sweeping statement, or simple opinion you give is, by your own definition, subjective.  This means that none of these things has been considered objectively.  As a result, nothing that comes from you will be trustworthy to anyone who is objective.

 

But here's the other side of that coin.  If I (make the same mistake twice) offer you my own ideas, to which you claim to be open (and we know already that's a lie), I do so knowing that, in your mind, everything is subjective.  The result of this is that, even if I give you an objective idea of the objective reality around you (as I did in the "Grace Is The Knowledge..." thread), you will assume it is subjective, because your subjective beliefs (faith) will not allow you to do otherwise, despite the fact that alternatives have been pointed out repeatedly.  Since you will make this assumption, the only logical conclusion for you will be that my idea, being "subjective", is also untrustworthy.

 

You speak of "grace and relationships"; but now, because of your subjective beliefs (faith), we come to the point at which we can no longer trust one another.  This isn't a problem with me; nor is it a problem with you.  The problem is that your faith stands between you and I (and the other members of this site).

 

Would you continue to allow your faith to stand between yourself and those who care about you?

Was traveling yesterday. No, y'all are being something...can't think of the right word atm. I am capable of objective thinking and have told y'all that several times....have offered to participate even. But with that said, even my best objective efforts are still subjective by definition.

 

If y'all would like to keep playing games, that's fine, just leave me out.

 

 

Keeping you honest and holding you accountable to your own words is not game playing on our part, End.

 

Saying that objective is subjective is playing with the meaning of words.

 

You are the one playing word games here.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

That's interesting, Prof.

 

You're saying that subjectivity destroys trust between people.

 

Making trusting and grace-filled relationships... impossible.

 

That right?

 

BAA.

Pretty much, in a nutshell.  

 

If End's subjectivity leads us to find his thoughts untrustworthy, then it only stands to reason that the very same subjectivity would lead End to mistrust our thoughts.  

 

Religion destroying relationships right before our very eyes.

 

Unless, of course, End does trust us because he has objectively examined our behavior, intellect, actions, and thought processes and objectively found them to be trustworthy.  In which case... Nah, he'd never admit to it.

 

 

 

Prof,

 

Is that End's religion (Biblical Christianity) destroying relationships before our very eyes?

 

Or is that End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity, destroying relationships before our very eyes?

.

.

.

I ask because there seems to be a difference.

 

Could you clarify and/or correct please?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

That's a good point of clarification, BAA.  It seems to me that both would be true.  End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity is what is actually destroying trust.  However, I'd bet my eye-teeth that said belief is tied to his religious convictions.  In other words, if he wasn't so indoctrinated; he'd be more open-minded.

 

Ding ding ding we have a winner. Yes, because it's all subjective, YES, I have a unique belief, even bias....imagine that. There is no God given way to walk around in true objectivity. So two things have to happen, either we define objectivity for each other and share in the common findings or we just get to know each other and realize that my red is actually orange and your red is almost purple.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Here's the problem, End3.  Everything is subjective.  That means everything you say, everything you think, every positive claim, sweeping statement, or simple opinion you give is, by your own definition, subjective.  This means that none of these things has been considered objectively.  As a result, nothing that comes from you will be trustworthy to anyone who is objective.

 

But here's the other side of that coin.  If I (make the same mistake twice) offer you my own ideas, to which you claim to be open (and we know already that's a lie), I do so knowing that, in your mind, everything is subjective.  The result of this is that, even if I give you an objective idea of the objective reality around you (as I did in the "Grace Is The Knowledge..." thread), you will assume it is subjective, because your subjective beliefs (faith) will not allow you to do otherwise, despite the fact that alternatives have been pointed out repeatedly.  Since you will make this assumption, the only logical conclusion for you will be that my idea, being "subjective", is also untrustworthy.

 

You speak of "grace and relationships"; but now, because of your subjective beliefs (faith), we come to the point at which we can no longer trust one another.  This isn't a problem with me; nor is it a problem with you.  The problem is that your faith stands between you and I (and the other members of this site).

 

Would you continue to allow your faith to stand between yourself and those who care about you?

Was traveling yesterday. No, y'all are being something...can't think of the right word atm. I am capable of objective thinking and have told y'all that several times....have offered to participate even. But with that said, even my best objective efforts are still subjective by definition.

 

If y'all would like to keep playing games, that's fine, just leave me out.

 

 

Leave you out?  You, a xian, repeatedly make threads and posts on an ex-c site but you want us to leave you out?  And you can't see the contradiction in this?

[Guest end3]

 

 

Here's the problem, End3.  Everything is subjective.  That means everything you say, everything you think, every positive claim, sweeping statement, or simple opinion you give is, by your own definition, subjective.  This means that none of these things has been considered objectively.  As a result, nothing that comes from you will be trustworthy to anyone who is objective.

 

But here's the other side of that coin.  If I (make the same mistake twice) offer you my own ideas, to which you claim to be open (and we know already that's a lie), I do so knowing that, in your mind, everything is subjective.  The result of this is that, even if I give you an objective idea of the objective reality around you (as I did in the "Grace Is The Knowledge..." thread), you will assume it is subjective, because your subjective beliefs (faith) will not allow you to do otherwise, despite the fact that alternatives have been pointed out repeatedly.  Since you will make this assumption, the only logical conclusion for you will be that my idea, being "subjective", is also untrustworthy.

 

You speak of "grace and relationships"; but now, because of your subjective beliefs (faith), we come to the point at which we can no longer trust one another.  This isn't a problem with me; nor is it a problem with you.  The problem is that your faith stands between you and I (and the other members of this site).

 

Would you continue to allow your faith to stand between yourself and those who care about you?

Was traveling yesterday. No, y'all are being something...can't think of the right word atm. I am capable of objective thinking and have told y'all that several times....have offered to participate even. But with that said, even my best objective efforts are still subjective by definition.

 

If y'all would like to keep playing games, that's fine, just leave me out.

 

 

Keeping you honest and holding you accountable to your own words is not game playing on our part, End.

 

Saying that objective is subjective is playing with the meaning of words.

 

You are the one playing word games here.

 

No, on ANYONE's best efforts we can't remove subjectivity. Instruments are even subjective on some level.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Was traveling yesterday. No, y'all are being something...can't think of the right word atm. I am capable of objective thinking and have told y'all that several times....have offered to participate even. But with that said, even my best objective efforts are still subjective by definition.

If y'all would like to keep playing games, that's fine, just leave me out.

 

But surely that's the point, End3.  It doesn't matter how many times you say you can think objectively; because knowing that for you objectivity is subjectivity makes the statement contradictory.  It doesn't matter how many times you offer to participate, when we can't trust your subjective thoughts.

 

Do you see how your subjective beliefs stand between you and the grace and relationships you'd like to have with others?

[Guest end3]

Ding ding ding we have a winner. Yes, because it's all subjective, YES, I have a unique belief, even bias....imagine that. There is no God given way to walk around in true objectivity. So two things have to happen, either we define objectivity for each other and share in the common findings or we just get to know each other and realize that my red is actually orange and your red is almost purple.

Someone respond specifically to this post. No dodges, no suckky Christian attacks. Just an explanation of how you view this to be inaccurate.

 

Good luck...you'll need it.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ding ding ding we have a winner. Yes, because it's all subjective, YES, I have a unique belief, even bias....imagine that. There is no God given way to walk around in true objectivity. So two things have to happen, either we define objectivity for each other and share in the common findings or we just get to know each other and realize that my red is actually orange and your red is almost purple.

 

Of course there's no god given way to walk around in true objectivity.  But there is a scientific one.  All we need is a photospectometer and we can demonstrate that orange is orange.  You can stubbornly continue calling it red; but that would only point out the glaring inconsistencies between your subjective beliefs and the objective reality around you.

[Guest end3]

 

Was traveling yesterday. No, y'all are being something...can't think of the right word atm. I am capable of objective thinking and have told y'all that several times....have offered to participate even. But with that said, even my best objective efforts are still subjective by definition.

 

If y'all would like to keep playing games, that's fine, just leave me out.

But surely that's the point, End3.  It doesn't matter how many times you say you can think objectively; because knowing that for you objectivity is subjectivity makes the statement contradictory.  It doesn't matter how many times you offer to participate, when we can't trust your subjective thoughts.

 

I offered to participate in objective reasoning with y'all. You said you were suspicious. I don't know that I have anything else to offer. I can't run around with a spectrometer on my head and collect data for interpretation so that we may have a relationship. It's all we have I think.

 

And this is why, when it happens where people take away something positive within a relationship, that I believe there is God manifested in that. When we don't, it's like an unanswered prayer. It's something we thought we needed but yet is still an object that guides us even though it didn't come out like we wanted.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

I offered to participate in objective reasoning with y'all. You said you were suspicious. I don't know that I have anything else to offer. I can't run around with a spectrometer on my head and collect data for interpretation so that we may have a relationship. It's all we have I think.

 

And this is why, when it happens were people take away something positive within a relationship, that I believe there is God manifested in that. When we don't, it's like an unanswered prayer. It's something we thought we needed but yet is still an object that guides us even though it didn't come out like we wanted.  ~End3 Posted Today, 09:23 AM

Do you see how your subjective beliefs (faith) stand between you and the grace and relationships you'd like to have with others?

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

Here's the problem, End3.  Everything is subjective.  That means everything you say, everything you think, every positive claim, sweeping statement, or simple opinion you give is, by your own definition, subjective.  This means that none of these things has been considered objectively.  As a result, nothing that comes from you will be trustworthy to anyone who is objective.

 

But here's the other side of that coin.  If I (make the same mistake twice) offer you my own ideas, to which you claim to be open (and we know already that's a lie), I do so knowing that, in your mind, everything is subjective.  The result of this is that, even if I give you an objective idea of the objective reality around you (as I did in the "Grace Is The Knowledge..." thread), you will assume it is subjective, because your subjective beliefs (faith) will not allow you to do otherwise, despite the fact that alternatives have been pointed out repeatedly.  Since you will make this assumption, the only logical conclusion for you will be that my idea, being "subjective", is also untrustworthy.

 

You speak of "grace and relationships"; but now, because of your subjective beliefs (faith), we come to the point at which we can no longer trust one another.  This isn't a problem with me; nor is it a problem with you.  The problem is that your faith stands between you and I (and the other members of this site).

 

Would you continue to allow your faith to stand between yourself and those who care about you?

Was traveling yesterday. No, y'all are being something...can't think of the right word atm. I am capable of objective thinking and have told y'all that several times....have offered to participate even. But with that said, even my best objective efforts are still subjective by definition.

 

If y'all would like to keep playing games, that's fine, just leave me out.

 

 

Keeping you honest and holding you accountable to your own words is not game playing on our part, End.

 

Saying that objective is subjective is playing with the meaning of words.

 

You are the one playing word games here.

 

No, on ANYONE's best efforts we can't remove subjectivity. Instruments are even subjective on some level.

 

 

If everything is unavoidably subjective End, why did you want to know what my point was 48 hours ago?

 

Your own perception of my point would have been unavoidably subjective - so why ask for it?

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

That's interesting, Prof.

 

You're saying that subjectivity destroys trust between people.

 

Making trusting and grace-filled relationships... impossible.

 

That right?

 

BAA.

Pretty much, in a nutshell.  

 

If End's subjectivity leads us to find his thoughts untrustworthy, then it only stands to reason that the very same subjectivity would lead End to mistrust our thoughts.  

 

Religion destroying relationships right before our very eyes.

 

Unless, of course, End does trust us because he has objectively examined our behavior, intellect, actions, and thought processes and objectively found them to be trustworthy.  In which case... Nah, he'd never admit to it.

 

 

 

Prof,

 

Is that End's religion (Biblical Christianity) destroying relationships before our very eyes?

 

Or is that End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity, destroying relationships before our very eyes?

.

.

.

I ask because there seems to be a difference.

 

Could you clarify and/or correct please?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

That's a good point of clarification, BAA.  It seems to me that both would be true.  End's belief in unavoidable subjectivity is what is actually destroying trust.  However, I'd bet my eye-teeth that said belief is tied to his religious convictions.  In other words, if he wasn't so indoctrinated; he'd be more open-minded.

 

Ding ding ding we have a winner. Yes, because it's all subjective, YES, I have a unique belief, even bias....imagine that. There is no God given way to walk around in true objectivity. So two things have to happen, either we define objectivity for each other and share in the common findings or we just get to know each other and realize that my red is actually orange and your red is almost purple.

 

 

Bzzzzzzzzt!  Wrong answer!

 

If everything is subjective, then there is no commonality we can share in.

 

Subjectivity destroys commonality because subjectivity is difference, not similarity.

 

Commonality is possible where there is objectivity.

 

But if everything is subjective, objectivity doesn't exist and therefore commonality is impossible.

 

Which is why unavoidable subjectivity destroys relationships, sharing, communion and trust.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

Here's the problem, End3.  Everything is subjective.  That means everything you say, everything you think, every positive claim, sweeping statement, or simple opinion you give is, by your own definition, subjective.  This means that none of these things has been considered objectively.  As a result, nothing that comes from you will be trustworthy to anyone who is objective.

 

But here's the other side of that coin.  If I (make the same mistake twice) offer you my own ideas, to which you claim to be open (and we know already that's a lie), I do so knowing that, in your mind, everything is subjective.  The result of this is that, even if I give you an objective idea of the objective reality around you (as I did in the "Grace Is The Knowledge..." thread), you will assume it is subjective, because your subjective beliefs (faith) will not allow you to do otherwise, despite the fact that alternatives have been pointed out repeatedly.  Since you will make this assumption, the only logical conclusion for you will be that my idea, being "subjective", is also untrustworthy.

 

You speak of "grace and relationships"; but now, because of your subjective beliefs (faith), we come to the point at which we can no longer trust one another.  This isn't a problem with me; nor is it a problem with you.  The problem is that your faith stands between you and I (and the other members of this site).

 

Would you continue to allow your faith to stand between yourself and those who care about you?

Was traveling yesterday. No, y'all are being something...can't think of the right word atm. I am capable of objective thinking and have told y'all that several times....have offered to participate even. But with that said, even my best objective efforts are still subjective by definition.

 

If y'all would like to keep playing games, that's fine, just leave me out.

 

 

Keeping you honest and holding you accountable to your own words is not game playing on our part, End.

 

Saying that objective is subjective is playing with the meaning of words.

 

You are the one playing word games here.

 

No, on ANYONE's best efforts we can't remove subjectivity. Instruments are even subjective on some level.

 

 

If subjectivity cannot be removed, what's the advantage of going with faith, End?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Again I ask, can you see, End3, how your subjective beliefs (faith) stand in between yourself and the grace and relationships you'd like to have with others?

[Guest end3]

Again I ask, can you see, End3, how your subjective beliefs (faith) stand in between yourself and the grace and relationships you'd like to have with others?

Wouldn't this be the point of "sacrifice"? For example, if I bend to allow for your objective language/perception/ideology and you do the same for me. It's not one sided. And as much as you would like to boil it down to objective philosophy, it falls short.

 

In other words as I understand you, you can't trust because you can't know because I won't allow for a theoretical strictly objective relationship. Is this right?

 

I didn't see you responding to my offer to have an objective discussion. So I would say practice what your are accusing me of. Granted I'm stubborn.

[mymistake]

 

Again I ask, can you see, End3, how your subjective beliefs (faith) stand in between yourself and the grace and relationships you'd like to have with others?

Wouldn't this be the point of "sacrifice"? For example, if I bend to allow for your objective language/perception/ideology and you do the same for me. It's not one sided. And as much as you would like to boil it down to objective philosophy, it falls short.

 

In other words as I understand you, you can't trust because you can't know because I won't allow for a theoretical strictly objective relationship. Is this right?

 

I didn't see you responding to my offer to have an objective discussion. So I would say practice what your are accusing me of. Granted I'm stubborn.

 

 

 

Gee End, why is it other people don't have this trouble?  When the Prof and I talk we just talk.  I don't have to ask him to sign a 200 part peace treaty so that he will agree to all of my subjective definitions.  Normal people just talk.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Again I ask, can you see, End3, how your subjective beliefs (faith) stand in between yourself and the grace and relationships you'd like to have with others?

Wouldn't this be the point of "sacrifice"? For example, if I bend to allow for your objective language/perception/ideology and you do the same for me. It's not one sided. And as much as you would like to boil it down to objective philosophy, it falls short.

 

In other words as I understand you, you can't trust because you can't know because I won't allow for a theoretical strictly objective relationship. Is this right?

 

I didn't see you responding to my offer to have an objective discussion. So I would say practice what your are accusing me of. Granted I'm stubborn.

 

No, End3.  Asking that another accept your definition of words is not having an objective conversation.  It's simply you having a subjective conversation and me agreeing with you.  We can compromise on some things; but neither of us can bend completely to the other and still remain objective.

 

And I would love to have an objective discussion with you; but as soon as you take the firm stance that "everything is subjective" then objectivity with you, and from you, becomes impossible.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Again I ask, can you see, End3, how your subjective beliefs (faith) stand in between yourself and the grace and relationships you'd like to have with others?

Wouldn't this be the point of "sacrifice"? For example, if I bend to allow for your objective language/perception/ideology and you do the same for me. It's not one sided. And as much as you would like to boil it down to objective philosophy, it falls short.

 

In other words as I understand you, you can't trust because you can't know because I won't allow for a theoretical strictly objective relationship. Is this right?

 

I didn't see you responding to my offer to have an objective discussion. So I would say practice what your are accusing me of. Granted I'm stubborn.

 

No, End3.  Asking that another accept your definition of words is not having an objective conversation.  It's simply you having a subjective conversation and me agreeing with you.  We can compromise on some things; but neither of us can bend completely to the other and still remain objective.

 

And I would love to have an objective discussion with you; but as soon as you take the firm stance that "everything is subjective" then objectivity with you, and from you, becomes impossible.

 

I'm not asking you at this point to accept my definitions but saying we could attempt the objective process if you would like. That is all I can offer because I can't objectively place objective outside of subjective.

 

Thx.

[mymistake]

That is all I can offer because I can't objectively place objective outside of subjective.

 

 

Then how do you function?  I presume you do not live in a mental ward.  When you go to Burger King and stand in line you comprehend that it is a place to by food - right?  You understand how to read the menu.  You expect ordering a whopper will result in you paying a few dollars to have the opportunity to eat a hamburger.  If you could not be objective you might try to slay a dragon or hide from aliens who are reading your mind.  But you don't do anything wild like that.  I think you are far more objective then you let on.  My guess is that it is only when you try to believe the crap your pastor fed you that your objectivity breaks down.  You bring that problem here so we only see you at your worst.  You do not want to believe that your pastor lied to you.  You reject the idea that he is a conman.  And that is the thing you cannot square with reality.

 

Anyway that is what happened to many of us.