Which Is Greater

[StillLooking]

 

It would appear that, once again, we've brought End3 too close to the truth about himself and he has decided to hightail it back to the safety of his own seclusion, hoping that, upon his eventual return, we will have forgotten all about this little run-in with the truth.  Licking his wounds, End3 has chosen self-appointed exile in order to re-instill in himself a faith that his deepest nether-reaches can no longer tolerate.

 

Or, maybe, he's just run off because he can't face the truth.  After all, for him, even truth is subjective.

If I'm just going to be harassed rather than having a discussion, I'd rather not.

 

Was thinking about it. I think the reason we are at an impasse is our core beliefs hinge on this conversation. Ordinarily I think people are more willing to compromise in a discussion...but not this time. Peace.

 

 

No, end3, we cannot compromise on our stance in any discussions (agreeing with you even a little that everything human perceives is subjective) because it is the foundation of the discussions.

 

You sound like a person who wants to discuss linear algebra but you are thinking that 1 + 1 = can be anything, it can be 2, 3, 4 or any number. You ask us to compromise to a middle point of 1 + 1 = 3 but it simply will not work because it doesn't make sense.

Do you see the reason why BAA & RNP cannot yield even a millimeter in this matter?

 

Edit: I am editing my example above to make it easier for end3 to understand.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

It would appear that, once again, we've brought End3 too close to the truth about himself and he has decided to hightail it back to the safety of his own seclusion, hoping that, upon his eventual return, we will have forgotten all about this little run-in with the truth.  Licking his wounds, End3 has chosen self-appointed exile in order to re-instill in himself a faith that his deepest nether-reaches can no longer tolerate.

 

Or, maybe, he's just run off because he can't face the truth.  After all, for him, even truth is subjective.

If I'm just going to be harassed rather than having a discussion, I'd rather not.

 

Was thinking about it. I think the reason we are at an impasse is our core beliefs hinge on this conversation. Ordinarily I think people are more willing to compromise in a discussion...but not this time. Peace.

 

Bless your heart.  Being harassed by being kept honest and held accountable for your words.  Poor thing.

 

The reason we're at an impasse is because everyone but you realizes that not everything is subjective.  We're all just trying to get you onto the same page as the rest of us so that we can all move forward as a group.

[bornagainathiest]

Here is my considered response to End3's use of the 'H' word.

 

 

Giving Unrequested Help To Those Who Need It

 

 

Many of us help other members of this forum. 

We do so gladly, for the good of those who need it.  Often there'll be a 'cry for help' in the Rants & Replies, the Ex-Christian Life or the General Christian Theological Issues sections.  Some of the more common themes are OCD-related issues, persistent nightmares, abusive relationships in families or a persistent and abiding terror of eternal damnation and hellfire.  Sadly, the list is much longer than this.  But the salient point remains.  Those of us who can - help those of us who need it.

 

Even when there is no overt call for help, we sometimes still give it or at least offer it.

Upon reading a person's story we can sometimes relate to their situation and think to ourselves, "Yes!  I know about this problem and I can help him/her!"  We then act upon this realization and get in contact, either openly in the relevant thread or confidentially via Private Messaging.  This is unrequested help.  Sometimes it's accepted and sometimes it's refused.

 

Now, in the case of End3, he hasn't overtly requested our help in keeping him honest to his own words.

But since the precedent of giving unrequested help does exist within Ex-C, then the least we can do for him is what we would gladly do for others.  I can think of at least three good reasons for doing so.  There may well be others.

 

First, it demonstrates that we make the effort to treat everyone in Ex-C on an equal basis. 

Secondly, it demonstrates this equality to the widest possible audience - not just the members, but also to the lurkers.

Lastly, since we are only human and prone to err, it's a kindness on our part to make sure that one of us stays true to their own words.

 

 

Perceiving Unrequested Help as Harassment

 

 

Even though it's not specifically enshrined in the Rules and Guidelines of Ex-C, by common agreement and by numerous examples, the Lion's Den is the place where Christians are held accountable for their words, their claims and their beliefs.  Therefore, since this precedent exists and is an accepted part of the usual workings of Ex-C, to claim or argue otherwise is to go against an indisputable and irresistible tide of contrary evidence.

 

To ask for exemption or exception from this is to flout the established principle of equality that prevails in Ex-C.

Nobody deserves special treatment or deserves to be exempted from the existing rules, guidelines or established precedents that govern the workings of Ex-C.  However, should they feel that they are a special case and deserve to exempted from what is currently in force, then they are free to present their case for exemption to the Moderators.  I'm sure that the Moderators would give their case a fair hearing and I'm also confident that we will abide by whatever ruling they make about their 'special' case.

 

Of course, there are other sub-forums in Ex-C.

Other sub-forums where Christians aren't under the intense scrutiny of the Lion's Den.  If End3 were to go to any of these, then he would have to abide by the prevailing rules and guidelines of his chosen destination - just as we all do.  If he wanted to be exempted from those prevailing rules and guidelines, then (as before) he'd have to present his case for exemption to the Moderators and they'd have to rule on the matter.  As before, I'm sure that their ruling would be quite fair and even-handed. 

 

But, as I made clear yesterday, wherever End3 goes, he unavoidably takes his subjectivity with him.

So, wherever he goes, we should be there to do the right and proper thing and keep him honest to his own, unavoidable standard.  If he goes or if he stays, we should be on hand to keep him honest.  It's the kind and helpful thing to do for him.

 

Reminds me a bit, of the lyrics of a song by The Clash.  (Nostalgic interlude.)

"Should I stay or should I go?  If I go there will be trouble.  If I stay it will be double!"

 

 

A Glimpse Of The Future..?

 

 

I know of a thread over at Christianforums.com that's been running continuously since... Sept 18, 2012..!

As of today the post count is up to 4, 588 and there's no sign of it ending any time soon.  The reason for the thread and it's content isn't really relevant here.  Suffice to say that the involved parties will not accept what each other is saying and stubbornly refuse to yield even a millimetre themselves. I simply mention it to give a hint of what could be played out here (anywhere in Ex-C) if there is no resolution to certain outstanding issues.  Issues that could be easily and quickly settled by honest answers to simple-enough questions.

 

(I can supply a link to that Christianforums thread.  Assuming that anyone in their right mind is at all curious about the 'death-before-defeat' mentality of the participants.  Just ask.)

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So I now return to my patient vigil, waiting for End3 to deal with his backlog of unanswered questions.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Orbit]

End, just admit that there is an objective reality so we can be done with this.

[mymistake]

 

 

It would appear that, once again, we've brought End3 too close to the truth about himself and he has decided to hightail it back to the safety of his own seclusion, hoping that, upon his eventual return, we will have forgotten all about this little run-in with the truth.  Licking his wounds, End3 has chosen self-appointed exile in order to re-instill in himself a faith that his deepest nether-reaches can no longer tolerate.

 

Or, maybe, he's just run off because he can't face the truth.  After all, for him, even truth is subjective.

If I'm just going to be harassed rather than having a discussion, I'd rather not.

 

Was thinking about it. I think the reason we are at an impasse is our core beliefs hinge on this conversation. Ordinarily I think people are more willing to compromise in a discussion...but not this time. Peace.

 

Bless your heart.  Being harassed by being kept honest and held accountable for your words.  Poor thing.

 

The reason we're at an impasse is because everyone but you realizes that not everything is subjective.  We're all just trying to get you onto the same page as the rest of us so that we can all move forward as a group.

 

 

 

I'm confused.  When End mentioned harassment was he talking about Prof and BAA helping him?  I thought he was talking about the way the board gets pissed at him when he harasses Free Thinker.  It never occurred to me that he thought being helped is harassment.   

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

It would appear that, once again, we've brought End3 too close to the truth about himself and he has decided to hightail it back to the safety of his own seclusion, hoping that, upon his eventual return, we will have forgotten all about this little run-in with the truth.  Licking his wounds, End3 has chosen self-appointed exile in order to re-instill in himself a faith that his deepest nether-reaches can no longer tolerate.

 

Or, maybe, he's just run off because he can't face the truth.  After all, for him, even truth is subjective.

If I'm just going to be harassed rather than having a discussion, I'd rather not.

 

Was thinking about it. I think the reason we are at an impasse is our core beliefs hinge on this conversation. Ordinarily I think people are more willing to compromise in a discussion...but not this time. Peace.

 

Bless your heart.  Being harassed by being kept honest and held accountable for your words.  Poor thing.

 

The reason we're at an impasse is because everyone but you realizes that not everything is subjective.  We're all just trying to get you onto the same page as the rest of us so that we can all move forward as a group.

 

 

 

I'm confused.  When End mentioned harassment was he talking about Prof and BAA helping him?  I thought he was talking about the way the board gets pissed at him when he harasses Free Thinker.  It never occurred to me that he thought being helped is harassment.   

 

 

No need to be confused, MM.

 

This has next to nothing to do with End's interaction with FTNZ and a great deal to do with us "helping" him by keeping him honest and accountable to his own words and beliefs. 

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End calls this help... harassment.

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 He firmly believes that his own subjectivity is an innate condition that he cannot possibly avoid or escape from.

That, for him, everything is subjective.  Which, of course also means - that for him, nothing is objective.  For him, subjectivity is ALL and objectivity doesn't exist.  Which inevitably means that wherever he posts and whatever he writes, his words will always be... subjective.  He takes his subjectivity with him wherever he goes.  It's inescapable.  Unavoidable.  Always there, no matter what he does.

 

So we'll be helping him out (wherever he is) in everything he writes.  

We'll be helping him by politely reminding him that he can't possibly write anything that is objective.  He can't make any kind of objective statements or claims whatsoever.  For him objectivity is a non-existent, unattainable nonsense which plays no part in his totally subjective reality.  So, if End did try and write something that he thought was objective - he'd be completely contradicting his firm belief that, 'everything is subjective'.

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And we can't have End contradicting himself, now can we?

 

 

That clear things up for you..?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

It would appear that, once again, we've brought End3 too close to the truth about himself and he has decided to hightail it back to the safety of his own seclusion, hoping that, upon his eventual return, we will have forgotten all about this little run-in with the truth.  Licking his wounds, End3 has chosen self-appointed exile in order to re-instill in himself a faith that his deepest nether-reaches can no longer tolerate.

 

Or, maybe, he's just run off because he can't face the truth.  After all, for him, even truth is subjective.

If I'm just going to be harassed rather than having a discussion, I'd rather not.

 

Was thinking about it. I think the reason we are at an impasse is our core beliefs hinge on this conversation. Ordinarily I think people are more willing to compromise in a discussion...but not this time. Peace.

 

 

Compromise is not a necessary part of discussion.  Discussion means giving and receiving information.  What the participants choose to do with that information is optional.  At the moment you are choosing to ignore our information and hold firmly onto your own.  This suggests an unwillingness to listen, and overall bad faith on your part.  When we don't listen we don't learn anything new.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

Reminds me a bit, of the lyrics of a song by The Clash.  (Nostalgic interlude.)

"Should I stay or should I go?  If I go there will be trouble.  If I stay it will be double!"

 

 

Thanks for the nostalgic interlude, BAA, I love that song!  It's a perfect choice to ramp up the creative tension towards the end of a party  And it's rather apt when applied to End's situation in this thread, and to deconversion generally.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

 

 

 

i came in this party too late, shoot me a message if you start a new topic i can jump in as well

right now soo many posts in this thread i lost track of what is exactly whats going on. Eh maybe next time

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

i came in this party too late, shoot me a message if you start a new topic i can jump in as well

right now soo many posts in this thread i lost track of what is exactly whats going on. Eh maybe next time

 

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

 

 

 

 

 

i came in this party too late, shoot me a message if you start a new topic i can jump in as well

right now soo many posts in this thread i lost track of what is exactly whats going on. Eh maybe next time

 

 

 

 

not a troll i am open for heartfelt and logical discussion. but your entitled to your subjective opinion so i aint stopping you lol

[mymistake]

 

 

 

 

 

i came in this party too late, shoot me a message if you start a new topic i can jump in as well

right now soo many posts in this thread i lost track of what is exactly whats going on. Eh maybe next time

 

 

 

 

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

lol

[mikey101]

 

 

not a troll i am open for heartfelt and logical discussion. but your entitled to your subjective opinion so i aint stopping you lol

 

 

A person who thinks everyone should believe the same as they do is not logical. Being part of the majority (Christians) and making an effort to try to tell the minority that they're wrong because they don't think like you,  is basically being a bigot.  

 

If you were actually logical, you would understand concepts like diversity of belief, that it's ok that some people don't believe like you do.   

 

But your mind is probably not able to process what I'm saying, hence there will likely be no reply.  The heart is where you understand things like this.. do you have a heart?

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

diversity is so obvious if a speck of dust billion miles away had eyes, even IT could see that such ridicoulous easy concept.

 

you making up your own argument and attacking it, we all know what thats called. I said nothing of the such, you take what other christians have said, in your mind, you inventory of experiences and phrases from them and then.......try to put it on me. ha you cant cut us all from the same cloth...but this is soooo ironic isnt it? you did the same thing you accused me of

 

But your mind is probably not able to process what I'm saying, hence there will likely BE a reply, that will counter what im saying with stock answers. The mind is where you understand things like this.. do you have a mind?

 

of course you do. Thats good. happy for you

[TheRedneckProfessor]

diversity is so obvious if a speck of dust billion miles away had eyes, even IT could see that such ridicoulous easy concept.

 

you making up your own argument and attacking it, we all know what thats called. I said nothing of the such, you take what other christians have said, in your mind, you inventory of experiences and phrases from them and then.......try to put it on me. ha you cant cut us all from the same cloth...but this is soooo ironic isnt it? you did the same thing you accused me of

 

But your mind is probably not able to process what I'm saying, hence there will likely BE a reply, that will counter what im saying with stock answers. The mind is where you understand things like this.. do you have a mind?

 

of course you do. Thats good. happy for you

Your blood is as rich in irony as it is in iron.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

lol..how much you charge for humor lessons? i always enjoyed your responses. Now im already paying Ravenstar for grammer lessons, and Crazyguy as a body guard, So my income is limited so keep that price to a minumum please

[Ravenstar]

Where's my cheque?

[mikey101]

diversity is so obvious if a speck of dust billion miles away had eyes, even IT could see that such ridicoulous easy concept.

 

you making up your own argument and attacking it, we all know what thats called. I said nothing of the such, you take what other christians have said, in your mind, you inventory of experiences and phrases from them and then.......try to put it on me. ha you cant cut us all from the same cloth...but this is soooo ironic isnt it? you did the same thing you accused me of

 

But your mind is probably not able to process what I'm saying, hence there will likely BE a reply, that will counter what im saying with stock answers. The mind is where you understand things like this.. do you have a mind?

 

of course you do. Thats good. happy for you

 

Don't you even know what you're doing here?   You're a Christian on an ex-Christian forum.  We don't believe the same as you, so you have to try to insert your beliefs here.  

 

Yet another Christian that can't be honest.  Has no idea what he's doing, or what intolerance means.  This is why no one likes Christians, you guys act like major dicks.   A real friend will tell you that, but of course you wouldn't listen.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

but im not the one making up arguments and attacking them. im communicating with what is actually being said and not using stock answers and questions and then try to use it on someone that never said such a thing. i like you Mikey, you like truth and you like to be treated fairly and you like logic. Im sorry if i offended you in anyway but i am no way intending to. Im try to discuss not debate. I only known u for a short time but u seem like a cool dude. And I Dont actually know u know . Just saying in the short interaction we had so far I think your a great guy for what its worth

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Y'all really should come to chat. We have all kind of crazy fun conversations. From relationships to politics to martial arts to posting pics of our selves to having cyber sex. Orbit is having a slumber party Helvetios and Onyx will be there then Crazy guy and true freedom will be bringing beer and pizza. It be great. See u there

[FreeThinkerNZ]

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

[mymistake]

I have faith that the trolling will come to an end.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Lol free

[mikey101]

but im not the one making up arguments and attacking them. im communicating with what is actually being said and not using stock answers and questions and then try to use it on someone that never said such a thing. i like you Mikey, you like truth and you like to be treated fairly and you like logic. Im sorry if i offended you in anyway but i am no way intending to. Im try to discuss not debate. I only known u for a short time but u seem like a cool dude. And I Dont actually know u know . Just saying in the short interaction we had so far I think your a great guy for what its worth

 

So do you usually like to hang out with ex-Christians?  If so, you must be close to giving up your faith. Otherwise, it's obvious what you're here for.  

 

If you can't be honest about it, then I don't see how there can be any meaningful communication.  If you *can* be honest.. then you will have shown us you can be real, and that goes a very long way.

 

From what I've seen, it's very hard for evangelical Christians to be honest, it's not something that's taught in their culture, and to live that way can weigh heavy on the conscience.

 

But sometimes Christians escape from their faith and become free.  That must be what you're here for, because it's what this website is for.