more in depth questions for Joefizz to answer about religion,etc.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

11 hours ago, Joefizz said:

I didn't answer simply because I don't have an answer,because God may be omniscient but I am not,I don't claim to know everything about God,I'm not about to know his every thought or his every reason for every action he has done as a few boldly claimed that Christians do,I have plenty of questions for God just as many do but if he doesn't answer such questions then I can only presume that the answer is not for me to know.

 

Your honest answer is appreciated. Unlike those other Christians who assert that they know exactly what Yahweh thinks (and it almost always aligns with their own thoughts and feelings), you at least admit that you do not know why your god does some of the things that he does.

 

If his reasons for allowing Satan to run free, despite already knowing beforehand everything that Satan was going to do, are not for you to know, then why would you trust Yahweh so much then?

 

It seems rather simple: If Yahweh knew beforehand that Satan was going to successfully ruin the rest of his creation, but chose to create him anyway, then it makes logical sense that the only reason is because he wanted Satan to ruin his creation. Like a parent who allows a rabid dog to run loose upon their children, despite having access to a gun with which to put the animal down, Yahweh has allowed Satan to run free, causing as much destruction as he can (at least according to Christian beliefs).

 

You have said that Yahweh refuses to destroy Satan because Satan is supposed to learn something, but clearly he never will. Revelation tells us what will happen to Satan and his fate is sealed. You also said that he will not destroy Satan because he is his child, but should not all of the harm that is being caused to the rest of his children be enough of a reason? It would seem that according to your way of thinking, Yahweh has more love for Satan than the rest of his children because he allows Satan to do horrible things to them, but does not stop him.

[Joefizz]

2 minutes ago, crazyguy123 said:

 

Your honest answer is appreciated. Unlike those other Christians who assert that they know exactly what Yahweh thinks (and it almost always aligns with their own thoughts and feelings), you at least admit that you do not know why your god does some of the things that he does.

 

If his reasons for allowing Satan to run free, despite already knowing beforehand everything that Satan was going to do, are not for you to know, then why would you trust Yahweh so much then?

 

It seems rather simple: If Yahweh knew beforehand that Satan was going to successfully ruin the rest of his creation, but chose to create him anyway, then it makes logical sense that the only reason is because he wanted Satan to ruin his creation. Like a parent who allows a rabid dog to run loose upon their children, despite having access to a gun with which to put the animal down, Yahweh has allowed Satan to run free, causing as much destruction as he can (at least according to Christian beliefs).

 

You have said that Yahweh refuses to destroy Satan until later on because Satan is supposed to learn something, but clearly he never will. Revelation tells us what will happen to Satan and his fate is sealed. You also said that he will not destroy Satan because he is his child, but should not all of the harm that is being caused to the rest of his children be enough of a reason? It would seem that according to your way of thinking, Yahweh has more love for Satan than the rest of his children because he allows Satan to do horrible things to them, but does not stop him.

Well alot of what you said bears alot of truth although my remark concerning God's love I didn't intend to be interpreted as that God loves satan more than everyone,but you seem to grasp alot of God's plans for satan and what he I suppose one could say forbeared,of satan before casting him out from his kingdom,and also a pretty good guess as to why God allowed and stills allows satan to do certain things,let me add to this that the understanding for why God allowed him to be present on earth was to give satan in a sense what he wanted but not how he wanted it,that something being a degree of dominion over his creations man and woman but the creation would have to choose whom to serve,and through that satan would have a degree of power because the understanding is that the more people that served satan whether unintentionally or intentionally their in a sense siding with satan through faith of the world/satan would add to satan's power so as to lay a "Fair" fight between God and satan adding humanity in the mix,evening the scales perhaps not completely but enough for satan to establish an army under his leadership,so as that in the end a clear superior leader would be established,God being the presumed victorious one between the two.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

22 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

Well alot of what you said bears alot of truth although my remark concerning God's love I didn't intend to be interpreted as that God loves satan more than everyone,

 

Even if you didn't intend for your remark to be interpreted as God loving Satan more than everyone else, does it not seem like a reasonable conclusion for someone to reach based on not just your words, but also what Christian belief tells us about Satan's relationship with Yahweh?

 

but you seem to grasp alot of God's plans for satan and what he I suppose one could say forbeared,of satan before casting him out from his kingdom,and also a pretty good guess as to why God allowed and stills allows satan to do certain things,let me add to this that the understanding for why God allowed him to be present on earth was to give satan in a sense what he wanted but not how he wanted it,that something being a degree of dominion over his creations man and woman but the creation would have to choose whom to serve,

 

Would this then mean that men and women are merely intended to be used as pawns for some sort of a Chess game between Yahweh and Satan? It seems that Yahweh cares very little for the lives of his creations on the Earth, except for those that he has predestined to serve his own purposes. This means that to Yahweh, you, me, and everyone else are merely pieces being pushed around on a board with a specific endgame in mind.

 

and through that satan would have a degree of power because the understanding is that the more people that served satan whether unintentionally or intentionally their in a sense siding with satan through faith of the world/satan would add to satan's power so as to lay a "Fair" fight between God and satan adding humanity in the mix,evening the scales perhaps not completely but enough for satan to establish an army under his leadership,so as that in the end a clear superior leader would be established,God being the presumed victorious one between the two.

 

But there could never be a fair fight between Yahweh and Satan because Yahweh already knows how everything will turn out and always has (if we assume that he is eternal and omniscient). If he knows the future and is fully capable of changing the circumstances to get any result that he wants, then everything must be happening according to plan. It must be that he created Satan with the intention of destroying him one day, but not until after he gave him control of a portion of his own creations to use for some game that they are playing. This would mean that Yahweh has no love or compassion for Satan because Satan is nothing more than cheap entertainment. If this is Yahweh's intended purpose for Satan, then just imagine how much less he must value you and I.

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

40 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

But they are known as explanations for how the universe and life began,care to explain how they aren't beliefs?

 

Are you saying that an explanation and a belief are the same thing? If so, ok then. If not , disregard the rest of this post.

 

Are all beliefs of equal worth?

 

I have observed your photo from your postings. Which theory seems better?

 

Theory 1: You have two eyeballs.

Theory 2: You have 17 eyeballs.

 

Of course the answer is #2. No, wait. Just kidding. Why would one theory be better than another? Or are all theories of equal believability?

 

...

 

The Big Bang may fall into a similar category as (dis)proving God so how about another example of scientific explanation that includes something observable? How about medicine?  How do antibiotics work? I think we have a pretty darn good understanding of them. We have observed how they work so I would not call them beliefs. There really are many fields of science where we know how stuff works because we have observed it happening and made it happen too!

 

I don't believe in gravity. I don't have to.

 

Ok then, enjoy. Time for bed.

[Joefizz]

5 minutes ago, crazyguy123 said:

 

 

 

Well he of course values us and loves us,other wise why did he not just tell adam and eve to follow satan?

Because he values giving us "Free will" just the same as satan,who really pushes this fight?

Satan because he simply won't accept defeat so he gladly  continues to go against God and add to his forces because he can't see his first defeat as a loss,so he seeks to persist on an obviously futile fight to the finish,where as God simply knows that he won't see reason,and only allows for this fight so that satan is sufficiently and justly defeated even undoubtedly to satan,so that satan is "Aware clearly" of why God in the end will punish him in accordance to his actions.

[Joefizz]

13 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Are you saying that an explanation and a belief are the same thing? If so, ok then. If not , disregard the rest of this post.

 

Are all beliefs of equal worth?

 

I have observed your photo from your postings. Which theory seems better?

 

Theory 1: You have two eyeballs.

Theory 2: You have 17 eyeballs.

 

Of course the answer is #2. No, wait. Just kidding. Why would one theory be better than another? Or are all theories of equal believability?

 

...

 

The Big Bang may fall into a similar category as (dis)proving God so how about another example of scientific explanation that includes something observable? How about medicine?  How do antibiotics work? I think we have a pretty darn good understanding of them. We have observed how they work so I would not call them beliefs. There really are many fields of science where we know how stuff works because we have observed it happening and made it happen too!

 

I don't believe in gravity. I don't have to.

 

Ok then, enjoy. Time for bed.

Ok actually I think heard this in school,that theories are "educated guesses",so I suppose tben that theories even though they are used by scientists to apparently prove things,they are guesses or opinions based upon observations would that be accurate to say?

[Blamtasticful]

1 hour ago, Joefizz said:

2.I suppose it's because for starters I understand the feeling,being invisible yet existing and helping others despite no appreciat ion God has people for him true enough,but how many people whether believer or non believer evaluate what they have and take most all of it for granted?

All of us have at some point and I think that's what shuts our hearts so tight,because we don't care for ourselves or others and would rather spend time on using up what time we have on things we never will have enough of,like money,theories,cars,airplanes,phones,games,and so forth,if we let ourselves we could just let our life go by without caring for each other at all or even become horrendous killers without a discernable purpose in life,So why can I believe more on God whom I can't see?

Because everything and everyone I have seen has not helped me,cared for me,or even protected me more than God,for there is no other explanation,for how I'm alive,how I was,how I changed,and how I am,I have received many "Answers" from people but they have always led me in a circle,through God now I am on a steady path,I may still remember my past but my focus is on the future,the past holds nothing for me.

 

I guess I understand that man. For real actually. I mean I can see from your point of view why if everything kinda sucked before faith and then faith came and gave you purpose, peace, security, community and even bliss at times. Why would you want to give that up. I think to me that tells me that we in the secular community still have a hard time demonstrating to people of faith that you can have those things in abundance after faith. The trouble is that it can be a harder process, but it works better because we have no illusions that keep us pursuing things that don't really work in life.

 

It might be easier now to be in a community of faith and I get that and don't want to shame you for it. But I do want you to know that if you feel strong enough one day that there is a better way. I live a live full of purpose and meaning here and now and I sleep easy at night with the knowledge that there is no god who sends so many nice and good people that you yourself know, and have experience with, and talk to hell simply for having mistaken beliefs. If you think about it is that really a joy and purpose-filled faith? All I ask is that you keep an open mind. You don't have to believe anything that you don't want to but no intelligent God would want you to stop pursuing knowledge. If he is the truth than pursuing the truth will lead you to him. If he doesn't, well, then I think you know the answer. If you do ever find yourself moving toward that possibility do not despair I am a testimony of hope that there is still purpose

[Joefizz]

2 minutes ago, Blamtasticful said:

 

I guess I understand that man. For real actually. I mean I can see from your point of view why if everything kinda sucked before faith and then faith came and gave you purpose, peace, security, community and even bliss at times. Why would you want to give that up. I think to me that tells me that we in the secular community still have a hard time demonstrating to people of faith that you can have those things in abundance after faith. The trouble is that it can be a harder process, but it works better because we have no illusions that keep us pursuing things that don't really work in life.

 

It might be easier now to be in a community of faith and I get that and don't want to shame you for it. But I do want you to know that if you feel strong enough one day that there is a better way. I live a live full of purpose and meaning here and now and I sleep easy at night with the knowledge that there is no god who sends so many nice and good people that you yourself know, and have experience with, and talk to hell simply for having mistaken beliefs. If you think about it is that really a joy and purpose-filled faith? All I ask is that you keep an open mind. You don't have to believe anything that you don't want to but no intelligent God would want you to stop pursuing knowledge. If he is the truth than pursuing the truth will lead you to him. If he doesn't, well, then I think you know the answer. If you do ever find yourself moving toward that possibility do not despair I am a testimony of hope that there is still purpose

Your honest sentiments and kind advise concerning the future,are much appreciated,I know we each have our own paths in life but we can still "Grow in Knowledge Together"because you are correct about that we should be "open minded" and "willing to gain more knowledge",after all no matter what lies ahead we are all here together on earth and we might as well try to be pleasant and understanding with each other.

[LogicalFallacy]

On 9/1/2017 at 5:45 PM, Joefizz said:

Ok actually I think heard this in school,that theories are "educated guesses",so I suppose tben that theories even though they are used by scientists to apparently prove things,they are guesses or opinions based upon observations would that be accurate to say?

 

No, not accurate at all.

 

Would you jump off a 10 story building if I told you to? If not why not? Gravity is just an 'educated guess'... oh no wait its fact. You jump off a building you fall... that's what the theory of gravity tells us.

 

[Scientific] theories are explanations of the facts and observations about a phenomena that best fits the data.

 

For example the theory of gravity is the best explanation we have of why jumping off a building is a really bad idea!

 

The theory of evolution is the best explanation of the diversity of life.

 

The big bang theory is the best explanation of the cosmic microwave background.

 

And so on.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

8 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Well he of course values us and loves us,other wise why did he not just tell adam and eve to follow satan?

 

Adam and Eve were set up to fail in a situation in which Yahweh already knew beforehand would turn out the way that it did. Adam and Eve didn't know what sin was, didn't know who Satan was, didn't know that the serpent was lying to them and Yahweh wasn't, and they certainly did not know that doing as the serpent told them would result in all of mankind being given a programming to sin. It is your god who set up the situation and then punished Adam and Eve and everyone else who came after them for doing exactly what he knew they would do.

 

Because he values giving us "Free will" just the same as satan,who really pushes this fight?

 

Free will is not a Biblical concept. We cannot have free will if our very nature that we are programmed with goes against Yahweh. We cannot have free will if he already knows everything that we will ever say, think, or do before we've been created. We cannot be anything but pawns.

 

Satan because he simply won't accept defeat so he gladly  continues to go against God and add to his forces because he can't see his first defeat as a loss,so he seeks to persist on an obviously futile fight to the finish,where as God simply knows that he won't see reason,and only allows for this fight so that satan is sufficiently and justly defeated even undoubtedly to satan,so that satan is "Aware clearly" of why God in the end will punish him in accordance to his actions.

 

No, it is not Satan. If Yahweh created Satan knowing beforehand everything Satan would ever say, think, or do then Satan is only acting out what he has been destined for. Just like us, he would be acting out his own programming. He wouldn't have free will either.

 

[mwc]

12 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Well he of course values us and loves us,other wise why did he not just tell adam and eve to follow satan?

Because he values giving us "Free will" just the same as satan,who really pushes this fight?

Satan because he simply won't accept defeat so he gladly  continues to go against God and add to his forces because he can't see his first defeat as a loss,so he seeks to persist on an obviously futile fight to the finish,where as God simply knows that he won't see reason,and only allows for this fight so that satan is sufficiently and justly defeated even undoubtedly to satan,so that satan is "Aware clearly" of why God in the end will punish him in accordance to his actions.

    Free will is fun.  Why don't you use yours and take a shot at my post way back on page 2?  We can talk about all these things since I already kind of did.

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

13 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Ok actually I think heard this in school,that theories are "educated guesses",so I suppose tben that theories even though they are used by scientists to apparently prove things,they are guesses or opinions based upon observations would that be accurate to say?

 

Take a look at your self. Do you in fact exist?  Maybe your existence is just an opinion or educated guess based on observation? Maybe you don't exist at all? Do you need faith to accept your own existence? Or is it obvious or self-evident?  If you feel that you are indeed real please tell me why? Because I'm not convinced (haha).

 

Does the Flying Spaghetti Monster exist?

Does Jesus exist?

 

I submit to you that if two thousand  years ago some smart ass replaced all the bible references to Jesus with the phrase "Flying Spaghetti Monster" that today you would be trying to recruit us for his Noodley goodness.

 

Can I get a R'amen?

 

This site might have been Ex-Pasta.net.

[disillusioned]

18 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

This site might have been Ex-Pasta.net.

 

Nonsense. No one who has looked deep into the sauce and cheese could ever recant their faith. Once you have felt the brush of his noodly appendage there simply is no going back.

[Joefizz]

On 9/1/2017 at 3:12 PM, midniterider said:

 

Take a look at your self. Do you in fact exist?  Maybe your existence is just an opinion or educated guess based on observation? Maybe you don't exist at all? Do you need faith to accept your own existence? Or is it obvious or self-evident?  If you feel that you are indeed real please tell me why? Because I'm not convinced (haha).

 

Does the Flying Spaghetti Monster exist?

Does Jesus exist?

 

I submit to you that if two thousand  years ago some smart ass replaced all the bible references to Jesus with the phrase "Flying Spaghetti Monster" that today you would be trying to recruit us for his Noodley goodness.

 

Can I get a R'amen?

 

This site might have been Ex-Pasta.net.

And your brain is outta here............lol.

[Joefizz]

7 hours ago, disillusioned said:

 

Nonsense. No one who has looked deep into the sauce and cheese could ever recant their faith. Once you have felt the brush of his noodly appendage there simply is no going back.

Are you talking about mr.noodle or someone else?

[Joefizz]

On 9/1/2017 at 8:37 AM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

No, not accurate at all.

 

Would you jump off a 10 story building if I told you to? If not why not? Gravity is just an 'educated guess'... oh no wait its fact. You jump off a building you fall... that's what the theory of gravity tells us.

 

Theories are explanations of the facts and observations about a phenomena that best fits the data.

 

For example the theory of gravity is the best explanation we have of why jumping off a building is a really bad idea!

 

The theory of evolution is the best explanation of the diversity of life.

 

The big bang theory is the best explanation of the cosmic microwave background.

 

And so on.

Ok I think I get what you mean,so theories are evaluations to establish in depth answers to many questions concerning what exists and how they function as well as how they can change or react in a variety of circumstances,would that be more accurate to say?

[sdelsolray]

23 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

Ok I think I get what you mean,so theories are evaluations to establish in depth answers to many questions concerning what exists and how they function as well as how they can change or react in a variety of circumstances,would that be more accurate to say?

 

No that would be less accurate to say.

 

Read again what LF wrote:

 

"[Scientific] theories are explanations of the facts and observations about a phenomena that best fits the data."

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Joefizz said:

Are you talking about mr.noodle or someone else?

 

Flying Spaghetti Monster heaven includes a beer volcano and a stripper factory. Just sayin'.

[Joefizz]

 

31 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

No that would be less accurate to say.

 

Read again what LF wrote:

 

"[Scientific] theories are explanations of the facts and observations about a phenomena that best fits the data."

So it's pretty much figuring out what could be true,using the facts already established,and then giving an explanation having a possibility of being true concerning the subject with observations that fit with the explanation as opposed to simple speculation,would that be correct?

[disillusioned]

2 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Are you talking about mr.noodle or someone else?

 

Have you not heard the good news?

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, Joefizz said:

 

So it's pretty much figuring out what could be true,using the facts already established,and then giving an explanation having a possibility of being true concerning the subject with observations that fit with the explanation as opposed to simple speculation,would that be correct?

 

You can start here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

 

Study hard.

[LogicalFallacy]

5 hours ago, Joefizz said:

 

So it's pretty much figuring out what could be true,using the facts already established,and then giving an explanation having a possibility of being true concerning the subject with observations that fit with the explanation as opposed to simple speculation,would that be correct?

 

What sdelsolray said in reply to you both times. (Sdelsolray, thanks for the correction by putting "scientific" at the start of the definition. I slipped up there as  theory related very specifically to science in the definition)

 

Joe I'm not entirely sure why you feel the need to re-define or expand the definition I provided of scientific theory. Certainly we can spend much time talking about scientific theories, but in relation to you asking if a scientific theory is an "educated guess", the most informative concise explanation I have ever heard is "[Scientific] theories are explanations of the facts and observations about a phenomena that best fits the data." That's it. No need to expand it unnecessarily. Occam's razor principle - keep it simple as possible and don't introduce anything into an explanation that is not required.

 

My personal explanation of the definition is to give an example (I gave several). You note that apples always fall from a tree. They never go up, they never float, they ALWAYS fall - this is a natural phenomena. Apples fall. This is a fact and an observation. You have watched 100 apples being dropped and they all fall - this is your data. Now we have an explanation for this - its called gravity. So linking all of this together - Gravity is the scientific theory that is the best explanation of the facts and observations about falling apples (the phenomena) that best fits the data.

 

There are no guesses, no speculations, just observations facts and data leading to explanations that we call scientific theories.

 

Do you understand that?

 

[ag_NO_stic]

Unlike some others here, I have no questions that I want you to answer to me, because you will not change my  mind. I have questions for you to consider on your own, when no one is around.

 

1) If "God" is unchanging, why did he seem to change so thoroughly from the Old Testament to the New Testament? If he is all-loving, why is there a hell? Why is it acceptable to punish for eternity a finite crime? You don't hold this standard for your own children?

 

2) Why is "I don't know" acceptable when you refer to the mind of god, but not acceptable when we say the same thing about what we believe that does not include god?

 

3) Some moral issues to consider: Is it moral for created beings not knowing good and evil to be punished for all eternity for an ill-informed decision? Why are we commanded to be patient and kind, forgiving and not keeping records of wrongs, not envious, not boastful.....when your god is none of these things? God was not patient with Adam and Eve, Not forgiving to them or to anyone who doesn't "believe" (considering believers assert that god made their skeptical minds that way) by keeping record of their wrongs, jealous of our attention, and boastful to the point that he apparently made creation just to glorify himself? Why would any "moral" being "need" blood sacrifices to be satisfied for a standard that they are capable of changing? If he is all-powerful, he can change the definition of "sin" at his will. For example: rape. It is clearly condoned in the OT, so either God can change his standard and finds it repulsive now or he is unchanging and it is still acceptable in god's eyes.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You think it's astonishing that we don't believe and I think it's astonishing the mental acrobatics you have to do to make your theology work with reality. If you can accept that Zeus, once a revered and all-powerful god, is a combination of history, misunderstanding the world, and folklore/legend, why can you not do the same for Jesus?

[ag_NO_stic]

Point blank: Would your life be different if you did not fear hell or god?

[Joefizz]

On 9/2/2017 at 11:31 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

What sdelsolray said in reply to you both times. (Sdelsolray, thanks for the correction by putting "scientific" at the start of the definition. I slipped up there as  theory related very specifically to science in the definition)

 

Joe I'm not entirely sure why you feel the need to re-define or expand the definition I provided of scientific theory. Certainly we can spend much time talking about scientific theories, but in relation to you asking if a scientific theory is an "educated guess", the most informative concise explanation I have ever heard is "[Scientific] theories are explanations of the facts and observations about a phenomena that best fits the data." That's it. No need to expand it unnecessarily. Occam's razor principle - keep it simple as possible and don't introduce anything into an explanation that is not required.

 

My personal explanation of the definition is to give an example (I gave several). You note that apples always fall from a tree. They never go up, they never float, they ALWAYS fall - this is a natural phenomena. Apples fall. This is a fact and an observation. You have watched 100 apples being dropped and they all fall - this is your data. Now we have an explanation for this - its called gravity. So linking all of this together - Gravity is the scientific theory that is the best explanation of the facts and observations about falling apples (the phenomena) that best fits the data.

 

There are no guesses, no speculations, just observations facts and data leading to explanations that we call scientific theories.

 

Do you understand that?

 

Yes,odd though that none of my school teachers including science and astronomy teachers ever taught me this,they always said "Educated guesses based on established facts"Thanks for this knowledge on scientific theories,always good to learn something new and through such learning not end up incorrectly say things one doesn't know for sure,which unfortunately due to my schooling I always reflected the "educated guess" as scientific theories,so this should help me discuss better with others about science much appreciated!