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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
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    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • moxieflux66
      Seems to me there has been no visible problems with just treating sex as it is; a biological inevitability. Stop pretending you can stop it and work with it for everyone's benefit.    Since twenty years have elapsed in NZ since this law's reasonable implementation, couldn't we say the positive results of treating sex rationally is a GOOD IDEA and benefits society and economies rather than 'original sin' concepts, which clearly do not work? I have not heard of any ill effects from the legalization of prostitution in Nevada either for that matter. 🤔    
    • Wertbag
      I had to double check, the "Prostitution reform bill" was passed in 2003, so we are just pass 20 years on it being legal.  Wasn't long after the Netherlands legalizing it in 2000, becoming the first European country to do so. Personally, I've seen no negative effects.  People who used the services before it was legal continued to do so, and those who didn't want to didn't change their minds.  It felt like more prostitutes changed to working at gentlemen's clubs or as escorts, and less street walkers.  We used to have red light districts (Fort St and upper K Road for those who know Auckland), but both of those cleaned up and are more mixed commercial areas now.  There are still brothels and strip clubs, but fewer and less in your face. There is a working girl support service, free health checks and all legal protections.  It's all been good from what I can see.
    • moxieflux66
      Yes, I know about Nevada. Geez, Weez. I didn't say I wanted to BE a prostitute! 😵‍💫
    • Weezer
      The writing was just there.  No significance.   NDEs seem to reflect the persons basic beliefs.  No religion, no religious message.  My wife's "pagan" uncle had one on the operating table and the only thing it did was to cure him of the fear of death.
    • Weezer
      The state of Nevada has allowed prostitution for decades.  Hey, it is the Sodom and Gomorrah of America!  You might want to move to Las Vegas.  😁
    • Weezer
      Here is another very informative book that is not directly related to the subjects you are questioning, but is an overall view of the development of human beings that puts the whole concept of the biblical God and related religions into question.  I believe looking at the big picture is a more effective way of putting those individual concepts to rest, than focusing directly on them.  The book.  SAPIENS, by Yuval Noah Harari
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      Don't underestimate resources that aren't actually "resources."  What I mean is that focusing on other things besides trying to explain all of the inexplicables can often be a profound source of enlightenment and relief.  Take up a completely unrelated hobby, or study a new language.  Learn to quilt.  Maybe just focus on upgrading the house for a bit.  If it doesn't help, I'll admit I was wrong; but you'll feel like you've accomplished something. 
    • older
      While Nontheist has given you enough to keep you busy for a long time, I'll toss this one onto the list: A Manual for Creating Atheists, by Peter Boghossian.
    • nontheistpilgrim
      I have been on the road for over fifteen years following retirement from Christian ministry. I enjoy reading! (I used to read Strong’s Theology before settling down at night – eek) It’s been a struggle (and in some senses still is a struggle) to sort out my beliefs after so many years a Christian and so much commitment to the church and ministry. I have grown into a full atheist position but still feel that I need to read more of the absurdity of Christianity and its basic beliefs. So you may understand this mixed list of books that have helped me down the years. In no particular order.   Godless for God’s sake by David Boulton was a very important starter. The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy really got me thinking! The Age of reason by Thomas Paine. Did Jesus exist (1986 edition) by G A Wells (my present reading, rather difficult) God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens. Who on Earth was Jesus by David Boulton. All that’s wrong with the Bible by Jonah Conner. The End of Faith by Sam Harris. Atheism for Dummies. The Dark Side by Valerie Tarico. Jesus interupted by Bart Ehrman. Goodbye Jesus by Tim Sledge. The Portable Atheist (selected readings by Christopher Hitchens). Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman. Crazy for God by Frank Schaeffer. The world’s sixteen crucified Saviours by Kersey Graves.   I'd be interested to know what you find helpful from your own researches.
    • moxieflux66
      Me neither although my brother did and insists I need it (badly) 😉   Interesting dream. Did the writing or message seem important?    My mother said she had an NDE when she was giving birth to my brother. She said she saw the white light and Jesus and she was told she had to go back/chose to go back (don't remember which one). I believe it cemented her beliefs in xitanity.     
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    • Ushiromiya_Battler

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      Here because I want to see what more is out there. 
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      Happy New Year to my fellow heathens!!! Hope everyone has a fantastic new year and 2024 goes well for all people here! My New Year's resolution is to get a better sleep schedule (I'm not failing shhhhh! 🤫)
       
      Here's to a great 2024!! 🥳🍻🎊🎉
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