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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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    • pantheory
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  • Recent Posts

    • pantheory
      "1. If hell exists, god cannot be omnibenevolent.  2. If hell exists, it invalidates god's omnipresence.   According to the Bible Hell exists. God is not omnibenevolent to those who disobey him. He created Hell for Lucifer, for the disobedient angels, and for all who do not follow his word. I don't believe God is omnipresent in Hell but since he created it, he has power over it, and maybe if he wished, he could destroy it or have it managed differently, The Bible doesn't talk of this.
    • pantheory
      Good question. According to the Bible God created hell as a place to ban Lucifer and his follower angels. The fire and torment part of hell is little discussed in the Bible, primarily Revelation. But Lucifer was free to tempt Eve and is accordingly free to temp sinners in the world so how is hell managed. There is much unanswered in the Bible, that's why all of God's ways and purposes are unknown, and sometimes only faith must be involved in God's purposes when all the answers are not there.
    • moxieflux66
      Ok, that's it for me. Next time I go for a hike in the woods I'm taking my electric flyswatter. 😉
    • moxieflux66
      I can't tell you how relieved I am to finally find an expert in this area! It's been plaguing me for years. So please keep going! I have many more questions...   Such as, does it take individual spraying of feathers or can it be done industrial style, like in a paint shop? Seems to me if this has to be done individually it might take the whole of the CIA to do that every day.....And what happens if it's raining too? Or the ducks have to fly through a hurricane?  Then there's this....      
    • older
      http://jesusbuds.com/     The CIA sprays the feathers with WD40 each morning.     No. Those are owned by Bill Gates and are used to deliver the microchips to the vaccine manufacturers.
    • TABA
      Non-grata, you readily concede that there are many contradictions in scripture and while I understand you do not require perfection in scripture in order to believe in God/Jesus yourself, surely you see how hard it can be to discern what is true and what is not in both the Old and New Testaments.  Surely you can see how a rational person might conclude it is all myth and fiction and that this supposed god does not even exist?   How then can you believe in and worship a good who sends non-believers to this place of eternal torment?  
    • moxieflux66
      I knew it all along!!! I have heard this for years and observed many different species from several parts of the US. I have even witnessed what appears to be two drones mating (very realistic!) but the question is, how do duck drones keep from getting waterlogged when they land in the water? 🤔   Does that include big flying bugs too? I have seen some that actually hover and try to stare me down before flying off. If they're not government drones, they might be spying on me for the aliens (not aliens from my own home planet though...whew). 👽   As for that last bit, I am truly speechless so I will just end by saying that you missed your calling as a writer for Saturday Night Live. 😁    
    • moxieflux66
      I will try to address this when I stop laughing but haven't as of yet. 🤣   (a few minutes later)   Nope...still laughing....   Hey where can I get whatever it is you're smoking? 🤔
    • older
      It should also be noted that this is alleged to have happened in Gaza during the war. So let's think about this. Gaza is being destroyed, hundreds of thousands of people are running for their lives, children are starving, bombs are falling constantly, and someone has the time and means to go around and check with the Muslim population to see how many of them have dreamed of Jesus, and keep track of the reports to determine that 200 of them had the same dream on the same day. Sure.    Now it is possible because birds aren't real. They have been replaced by drones and some of those drones could have been shipped to Israel and used to surveil Muslims in Gaza. This is from the Audubon Society website so it has to be true:   The CIA assassinated John F. Kennedy after he refused to kill and replace billions of birds with drones. The U.S. government is sequestering a team of Boeing engineers in Area 51 for a secret military mission. Our tax dollars have been funneled into building the “Turkey X500,” a robot used to hunt large birds. ... [T]he CIA took out 12 billion feathered fugitives because directors within the organization were “annoyed that birds had been dropping fecal matter on their car windows.” The targets were eradicated between 1959 and 1971 with specially altered B-52 bombers stocked with poison. They were then supplanted with avian-like robots that could be used to surveil Americans.     And this is from The Guardian in an article about the guy who first sounded the alarm: He said he was part of a movement that had been around for 50 years, and was originally started to save American birds, but had failed. The “deep state” had destroyed them all, and replaced them with surveillance drones. Every bird you see is actually a tiny feathered robot watching you.   This has to be true or the Audubon Society and The Guardian wouldn't have printed it. So the answer is that the CIA, in cooperation with George Soros, who secretly converted to Catholicism, and the Trilateral Commission, sent bird-drones to Israel to use in Gaza to detect the brain waves of Muslims when they were sleeping and discover their dreams, which would facilitate the destruction of Islam and create a one-world Christian government.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      You have already eschewed the bible as non-authoritative, owing to mistranslation, misinterpretation, and misapplication.  Therefore, nothing the bible says, or implies, would be accepted into evidence anyway.  If, as you have said, the bible is filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, then falsus in uno, nothing it says can be trusted.    I am not using scripture.  I am using logic, which you claimed to respect,  and which I suspect you do not actually know how to use.  Using the very first law of logic, the law of non-contradiction, I have demonstrated that:   1. If hell exists, god cannot be omnibenevolent.  2. If hell exists, it invalidates god's omnipresence.    According to the rules of logic and formal debate, your options at this point are:   A. Concede both points B. Refute both points C. Change your current position on both points D. Ignore the logic you claimed to respect and therefore contradict yourself.   I'd make it easier on you if I could; but there it is.
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      Here because I want to see what more is out there. 
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      Happy New Year to my fellow heathens!!! Hope everyone has a fantastic new year and 2024 goes well for all people here! My New Year's resolution is to get a better sleep schedule (I'm not failing shhhhh! 🤫)
       
      Here's to a great 2024!! 🥳🍻🎊🎉
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