Incomprehensibility Of Christian Mindsets

[white_raven23]

Personally I'm not interested in what the bible describes as the nature of man (sinner from birth). I don't believe in the god depicted in that book in the first place.

 

And I challenge you to look into the eyes of a newborne babe and tell it's mother that the kid is a filthy sinner unworthy in the eyes of your deity.

 

If you want to have that kind of negative mindset about yourself and humanity in general, have fun and enjoy.

 

How on earth do you expect rational thinking people to accept the idea that they must hate themselves in order to be loved by your version of god?

 

Good luck with that.

[Amethyst]

Well said, White Raven.

 

I can't help feel sorry for people who think that they have to live with such low self-esteem. I used to have that kind of low self-esteem too, much of it as a direct result of religion. It's improved greatly since I've been out of it. I no longer believe that I'm not worthy of an imaginary being's love (or any other being, for that matter).

 

I hope that those who believe in such nonsense get out of the cult some day. At the very least, find a more liberal church and get out of the fundy mindset. You don't have to spend life hating yourself.

[Chris de Vidal]

Good point. We logically shouldn't need a rule book if morality is somehow genetically implanted into us, rather than it being based on social norms (which it is).

 

Is the conscience learned? If a man were brought to court because he'd raped and murdered a woman, but the defense was that he'd grown up isolated on an island for 30 years with no human contact, a good judge would still find him guilty!

 

We need the Law to see our sin clearly. I think Paul addressed this well:

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

(Romans 7:7-12 ESV)

 

You know it's wrong to steal, to hate, to lust. You know it's wrong, you do it anyway. The Law just gives you eyes to see your wicked moral condition.

 

 

Without the Bible we would still have the creation and our conscience as witnesses to the reality of God. I think that's why atheist tribes (if they really are atheists) are so rare. Missionaries in one sense have it easy when they go to unreached people-groups because everyone knows there is a God through the evidence of the creation and their conscience; they don't have to build that bridge.

 

Only the atheist or agnostic intentionally suppresses this truth (see Romans 1), because to admit there is a God is to bow to Him.

 

So the Law was a very merciful gift! I have seen people, their consciences awakened by the Law, break down and pray a near-perfect "sinner's prayer" from their heart. They then go on to do the thing they were created to do: worship God with all their heart/soul/mind/strength and their neighbor as themselves.

 

 

OK no more posts for now, gotta get things done. If you need to talk urgently, Chris AT deVidal DOT tv.

[Eponymic]

Conscience means, "with knowledge." Every time we sin we do it with the knowledge that it's wrong.

 

You *know* it's wrong to purposely decieve someone for selfish reasons (lie).

You *know* it's wrong to lust.

You *know* it's wrong to hate.

You *know* it's wrong to steal.

You *know* that if there's a creator you should not blaspheme His name.

You *know* that if there's a creator you should worship Him with all your heart/soul/mind/strength.

 

Yet all we choose to do is wrong, wrong, wrong!

 

I can't tell if this is your opinion or the one of your group because of how you phrased things. Be clear, otherwise I cannot properly discuss the issues with you.

 

His reasons given:

* Desire to show wrath

* Make known His power

* Make known His patience toward His enemies

* Make known the riches of His glory for His beloved (ME!!!)

 

Which no matter how you cut it shows a humanistic god who isn't altruistic or all-caring and who loves very conditionally. Why does God need to be so insecure? He feels desire to show wrath. He has to make his power known. If he's really that powerful he doesn't have to make such brutal examples to get his point across. He could just make everyone's weapons disappear, or turn the battlefield into a lake. There are plenty of decent ways for a loving god to get his point across. Resorting to violence is the lowest common denominator, and any God who does that, isn't as all-knowing, all-caring, or benevolent as he claims to be.

 

Other scriptures indicate that God doesn't willingly or happily afflict but He does afflict, which is like a good parent who hates to discipline his child but does so for his best interest. He has other desires to uphold, such as the ones listed above or the desire to protect his freedom to choose.

 

Don't you find it a bit strange that God rarely or never uses positive reinforcement?

 

Our nature is wickedness. We are enemies of God through our wicked works. We should be giving Him the glory He deserves but we shake our puny fist at Him or ignore Him or prostitute ourselves with other lovers (other gods). He is just for executing judgement and keeping us out of heaven.

 

That's your presupposition. Which makes sense considering how negative & uncaring the Bible tends to be. There's barely a lick of real love, and not really any unconditional love to be found with Bible God. Funny how he's willing to take it, but not give it.

 

Another problem you and others in the world have in understanding this is you are not OUTRAGED by salvation. If the God of the universe is real, and He is a holy and just and unbendingly righteous judge, it is an utter outrage that He would just pardon guilty criminals! Outrageous! A Duval County judge that did that would be off the bench in a week! But no, every guilty criminal thinks he deserves heaven. No one is outraged about free pardon. Justice had to be served, and yet here guilty criminals walk free.

 

First of all, that phrasing is kooky. I'm assuming you're meaning that we should be outraged by unnecessary pardons because of your explanation. But saying outraged by salvation is certainly improper phrasing because it means outraged by redemption or preservation from sin in general terms. Where you are looking at a very specific case of people pardoning someone's sin, which isn't necessarily the same as someone offering a person salvation.

 

I am certainly not in favor of criminals who shouldn't be walking free doing so, though I think you need to clarify if that's all you are talking about.

 

It was so outrageous that God had to carry out justice on His Son. To not carry out justice would be injust, and yet to carry it out on His Son was infinitely loving! And it demonstrates just how glorious He really is! I think that's the thrust of Romans 3:21-26.

 

Actually, that's solely your point of view & opinion again.

 

In my opinion, this is infinitely unnecessary and ineffective. First of all, an all-powerful God has whatever means necessary to get his point across. And by sending human version of himself is entirely ineffective as it enables only a minute portion of the population to come in contact with him directly and get his message undiluted from others POV.

 

Second, it doesn't inspire any kind of harmony between races when you allow one group of people murder Jesus, and another group of people hate them because of it. Which is inevitable that that is the first thing that would be conjured in people if they are predisposed towards evil (which you claim).

 

Third, if God is so all-knowing and understanding, you think he would've gotten the message that mass genocide and other negative reinforcement displays, just don't get the desired results he wants. If God is having to make statement after statement, then who is at fault here. The creation, or the creator who can't seem to get his tinker toys working the way he wants to.

 

 

And I want to revisit a previous point. I am convinced we are not created for our own happiness but to glorify Him. (The cool thing is when we glorify Him by being happiest/satisfied in Him, I think He is MOST glorified. So our happiness and His glory are not at odds).

 

And if that's the case, then you're dealing with a megalomaniac God who has an ego larger than the Milky Way. Think about it, this supposed loving creator is either so bored, or so egotistic, or so sadistic, that he creates a race of humans just so they will glorify him for the fact that he can make a, in your opinion, inherently screwed up group of people? That's pretty twisted man.

 

God wanted to share Himself with us because He is so supremely good. And He allowed darkness so we would understand His goodness. Like the diamond on the black velvet background, so is the evil that is allowed which contrasts with good so well.

 

Again, if a God is omniscient, there shouldn't be a need for him to have an ego & there for feel like he has to create such a horrible force (evil) just to show that he really is a cool guy. That's more an example of insecurity than it is of goodness.

 

I think the Bible says He allowed evil to appear so as to make it apparent what goodness really looks like.

 

And an all-knowing creator couldn't create us with that knowledge?

 

Of course you can choose to reject this. I'm merely giving you my explaination as to why the Christian believes it to be so, according to the Bible.

 

I appreciate your willingness to give your version of Christianity.

I certainly don't believe it myself, and in that respect reject it, but I most certainly appreciate that you are willing to explain your belief structure.

 

Hopefully you'll extend us the same courtesy of truly listening to what we're trying to say about how we believe.

[Asimov]

You know, you are partially right. I should have developed that thought.

Con means with, science means knowledge. Every time you sin, you do it with the knowledge it's wrong.

 

Partially right? No, you cannot take the etymology of the word and apply to this case. Conscience does not mean that, and using obsolete definitions is a dishonest tactic.

 

God is not subject to the dimension of time. He dwells in eternity. The Bible tells us that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to us (see Psalm 90:4 & 2 Peter 3:8).

 

Psalms doesn't say that, but that doesnt' mean that God is not subject to the dimension of time, those two passages don't state that God isn't subject to time.

 

Second, evil cannot be created.

 

Chris, do you believe that omnipresence is one of his attributes?

[Chris de Vidal]

And I challenge you to look into the eyes of a newborne babe and tell it's mother that the kid is a filthy sinner unworthy in the eyes of your deity.

 

We have a 4-month old. We've talked about this.

 

Feelings don't change truth. He doesn't feel like capable of mass-murder, but he is. He may be cute but so was Hitler as a baby, I'm sure.

 

It is my duty to present the gospel to him by living my life in a way that demonstrates what I believe and to make it clear to him like I am to you right now. And pray for him, that he turns from the wickedness he certainly will one day commit.

 

How on earth do you expect rational thinking people to accept the idea that they must hate themselves in order to be loved by your version of god?

 

You're almost right. This is not self-hate but accepting reality. "Rational people" are just deceiving themselves. Those "rational people" believe they are good, but if they open up the Ten Commandments they will see they quite certainly are not.

 

We must reject any self-righteousness and admit our guilt, which is our true condition, and the Law proves it. Just like a guilty criminal, we must beg for mercy from the judge. He is merciful and will pardon, but not without justice being served on His Son.

 

 

OK I told you all for now, I really should go for now.

[Asimov]

You're almost right. This is not self-hate but accepting reality. "Rational people" are just deceiving themselves. Those "rational people" believe they are good, but if they open up the Ten Commandments they will see they quite certainly are not.

 

We must reject any self-righteousness and admit our guilt, which is our true condition, and the Law proves it. Just like a guilty criminal, we must beg for mercy from the judge. He is merciful and will pardon, but not without justice being served on His Son.

 

 

OK I told you all for now, I really should go for now.

Rational people reject the ten commandments, Chris, because it's bullshit.

[nick5]

Ok I don't post much, but man, this time I just HAD to say that this guy (chris) is totally ridiculous.

 

I think sin is the only reason to explain why evil exists and this world is not the perfect paradise it was originally intended to be. Mankind screwed it up!

Well then god screwed up by creating humans with the ability to screw up. God is ultimately responsible for all that is wrong, no matter how you try to explain or justify it. This is not debatable.

 

I think it's the best explaination why, for example, Muslims fly planes into buildings.

Or why christians rape little boys?

 

You know it's wrong to steal,

Not always.

 

to hate

Hate is an essential emotion just like love. It shoudl be directed towards people who deserve it, of course.

Hate itself is not wrong, it's good.

 

to lust.

It's not wrong. And it does not lead to adultery, that is bullshit. A guy can look at porn and be the most faithful guy with his girlfriend. Lust certainly doesn't equal cheating your girlfriend.

Besides, getting horny with your girlfriend is also lust, so there goes your whole adultery BS.

 

PS. I watch porn with my gf

[Asimov]

[nick5]

Nah, he's the turd sandwich

[thunderbolt]

It is my duty to present the gospel to him by living my life in a way that demonstrates what I believe and to make it clear to him like I am to you right now. And pray for him, that he turns from the wickedness he certainly will one day commit.

Good gawd, you should be prosecuted for child abuse and endangerment for warping such a little mind with your absolute horrendous and vile outlook of the world. I hope he turns out gay or some other type of "abomination" in your Christian mind to perhaps jolt you back into reality. But I guess you will just disown the bastard for spitting on your god, and you would be cheering jesus on to throw him in the lake of fire with a smirk of satisfaction on your face.

 

You are the proof of the "Incomprehensibility Of Christian Mindsets"

[Antlerman]

OK I told you all for now, I really should go for now.

You came here to discuss with us as humans? Doesn't sound like it. You came here to preach. Now that you said the truth, you shall shake the dust off your feet at us? Fuck off you prick. Don't come back.

[NotBlinded]

There is our moral bent toward evil. We are sinners by nature.

Believing this lie is the greatest sin there is and all other sins are the effect of this belief.

 

Out of that moral bent comes transgression of the Law (see 1 John 3:4 and this topical study.)

I don't see anywhere where that is speaking of a 'moral bent' to commit sin. This only says that those who live a sinful life are in distruption of the order of Life (or god's order). I agree. But, I don't agree that we are born that way. We learn to be that way by believing in lies.

 

So sin that comes from the sin nature is done with the knowledge that it is wrong. We are sinners at conception, just as I was an American at birth. Because we are sinners, we transgress the Law (sin).

Where is this 'sin nature' that you speak of located?

 

You know, you really didn't answer my question though...

 

I'm sorry! Don't you hate it when people do that?? Good questions deserve attention when someone takes the time to ask it thoughtfully.

 

 

I wasn't trying to show that god didn't exist, I was just wanting your rationale for being able to give qualities to something that is not a thing. Can you answer for me?

 

Could you please explain your question? I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

 

And by the way, if I don't answer it's not because I'm ignoring you. I've suddenly come into free time but that could change.

Here it is again:

 

I'd like to ask you a question in regard to that article. I can agree with the reasoning about evil not being a thing and that all things must have a beginning. Do you understand god as a thing? If so, it must have a beginning. If not, then how can you say that you understand, and can describe, the properties of no-thing?

 

If god is not a thing (which I agree) god can be descibed only by saying what it is not just as evil, cold, and silence. Evil is the lack of good, cold is the lack of heat, silence is the lack of sound. That brings us to God. God (The Unmanifested) is the lack of manifestation. The truth here, IMO, is that the opposite polarities are essential to what the whole is. Would you know silence if not for sound? Would you know cold if not for heat? Would you know evil if not for good? They are intrinsically intertwined.

 

I am just wondering how you can say with certainty what god is when it (no-thing/unmanifested) can be known only by understanding its opposite? What I am saying is that you portray god as a being that has such and such qualities as if you are describing a thing, and we both know that 'things' require a beginning.

[Amethyst]

You are the proof of the "Incomprehensibility Of Christian Mindsets"

 

It's not just the Christian mindset. That guy is like no Christian I've ever known in RL. I'm willing to bet that his church is a cult within a cult. Either that or he's just very self-hating. But the repetition of his statements smacks of brainwashing to me (and I don't mean the ordinary type of brainwashing you get when you just go to church on Sundays).

 

Cult Warning Signs

[thunderbolt]

It's not just the Christian mindset. That guy is like no Christian I've ever known in RL. I'm willing to bet that his church is a cult within a cult. Either that or he's just very self-hating. But the repetition of his statements smacks of brainwashing to me (and I don't mean the ordinary type of brainwashing you get when you just go to church on Sundays).

Yip, have to agree. Two of this type of cult leaders are Ray Crapfort and Captain Kirk who couldn't make it in Hollywood and became a Christian instead. He doesn't read the replies, just sputters his "everyone is evil" bullshit.

 

But you know what, I am glad people like him believes in the Ten Commandments, they absolutely NEED it to keep them from committing those wicked acts that he believes his is going to commit without God holding his lil hand. For OUR safety, please believe in it!

 

But just keep your god, his ten rules and followers as far away from me as possible. I fear for my life with them around.

[Onyx]

We have a 4-month old. We've talked about this.

 

Feelings don't change truth. He doesn't feel like capable of mass-murder, but he is. He may be cute but so was Hitler as a baby, I'm sure.

 

It is my duty to present the gospel to him by living my life in a way that demonstrates what I believe and to make it clear to him like I am to you right now. And pray for him, that he turns from the wickedness he certainly will one day commit.

 

Ouuuuch, that's so cold!

Your son aren't all that bad but if you say he's bad, then he'll think he's inately evil and go commit some evil acts to fulfill your attiude and feelings about him.

 

Like one said, you severely need a dose of REALITY!

No one will teach you reality but it is only you that will make that decision.

For your son and yourself safety, I hope you leave NOW!!!

NOW is the word not LATER!

 

All I can do is now to wait for you to grow up and take a spine with you.

My advice to you is that the best parents know their children are not bad, then they nurture that goodness in their children, not in that way that you're doing.

That is pyschological and religious abuse if you don't know what that is.

There is hope for you, so abandon that parenting appoarch for your good or the son won't go smoothly in the real world.

 

QUOTE(white_raven23 @ Mar 10 2006, 03:11 PM) *

 

How on earth do you expect rational thinking people to accept the idea that they must hate themselves in order to be loved by your version of god?

 

 

You're almost right. This is not self-hate but accepting reality. "Rational people" are just deceiving themselves. Those "rational people" believe they are good, but if they open up the Ten Commandments they will see they quite certainly are not.

 

We must reject any self-righteousness and admit our guilt, which is our true condition, and the Law proves it. Just like a guilty criminal, we must beg for mercy from the judge. He is merciful and will pardon, but not without justice being served on His Son.

 

Dude, your spewing sound like that hate website that want to restore theocracy in America!

I think goodness are our true form, not zombies for Jesus brainwashed version of the true form.

If you grovel for nothing then nothing will you get.

I can understand that if you're an actual criminal but a innocent non puritianical person grovelling?

Cooooome on!

Get back to the 21st Century or beyond not the 17th Century and before!

That's some real counselling you need there for your issues, not religion.

Your religion is a cult, it won't heal you, they will encourage the harmful ice in you.

WAKE UP! Try to convert to a lighter side of Christianity... or something.

 

The question is this:

 

Will you continue in your iceness or go out and be a beam in the world?

 

The choice is yours not mine.

 

Good luck.

[Ouroboros]

Chris,

 

Not every human is born with the ability to separate between right and wrong. Not every human is born with the ability to empathy or sympathy, and can't understand the "don't kill" rule that the majority of humans believe to be the moral code from God. We do have a built in, genetically sense to not kill members of our own family, but some are born without this sense. It's not sin, and it's not a moral code programmed by God, but a necessity of survival of the species. Simple put, any species or genetic drift that caused families to kill themselves of are self-explanatory extinct, and the only surviving species are the ones that have the instinct of *not* killing each other, unless under stress or danger. But that's only the norm, and not a God-given program that runs in every humans mind.

 

Secondly, if killing is immoral, and always sinful according to God, then why did he command "his" people to do so over and over again in the OT? Unless there are exceptions from the rule, and the idea of pure moral or pure immoral breaks apart and exists only in gray-zones. And how come there are so many supporters of death penalty that are born-again Christians? Do they intentionally support immorality and sin, and even claim it to be supported by Gods will? Even most Christians support the idea of war and killing your enemies. Then they live in constant sin and conflict with their own moral code.

[Chris de Vidal]

Of course I choose to reject it. It's stupid and you didn't even present an argument. You merely evangelized and shittered all over my fucking thread.

 

I'm sorry, I thought you were really seeking to understand Christians with an open mind.

 

You know, the Holy Spirit has really been convicting me of what I said above. It was sarcastic and intended to be an insult. It may not have sounded like one, but I meant it to sting.

 

Jesus said, "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you." (Luke 6:27,28 ESV)

 

Asimov, I've asked God to forgive me (for my offense was first at Him). Would you please forgive me too?

 

In light of Jesus' command, I'll be asking God to keep you safe and healthy this year. Of course He will do what is best, but He often makes different choices based upon the prayers of the saints.

 

 

To the message board: That insult did not represent what Christ looks like. That insult was a misrepresentation. I am to be His ambassador and I represented Him poorly.

 

Please do not view my sinful response as what Christ is really like. Please look past this broken vessel to the vessel Maker.

 

 

Almost all of you have cursed me, so in obedience to Jesus' command I will be asking God to keep you all safe and healthy in the next few months.

 

Ta ta for now, not ignoring you but I have to go away from the computer for a while.

 

(I apparently cannot PM people, could someone please PM Asimov the link to my apology? I don't want him to miss it. And he can write me at Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.)

[Onyx]

Think about these things we have to say.

We've been there and we escaped it.

We grovelled for weeks, months and years to get God to hear us.

We realized for variety of reasons, that perhap Christianity and God didn't even exist and never touched by it anymore.

We realied God was just meaningless babble or that he was misrepresented or just plain evil or that he simply didn't exist.

We have in common that we leaved Christianity or avoided it for life (Yes, there are a few.)

We are EXCHRISTIANS.

All that we ask for are respect, you don't have to agree or smile but we deserve respect and good behaviour toward us and we will warm to you if you will just drop the "I'm so holy, you so are not!" attitude and we will not call you a holy egomanic anymore.

 

Next time you decide to debate us, don't preach, just cut to the reason why Jesus or the bible package are the correct thing to follow, morally unobjectable, or whatever.

 

Is that clear?

[Skankboy]

You're almost right. This is not self-hate but accepting reality. "Rational people" are just deceiving themselves. Those "rational people" believe they are good, but if they open up the Ten Commandments they will see they quite certainly are not.

 

The irony here is that both sides can claim the other isn't "accepting reality".

 

Chris, I don't believe in any form of deity or even the concept of "evil" or "good" that you seem to ascribe to. The problem I often have with Christian thought is it starts from a presuppostion that evil exists. So why should I judge myself by the 10 commandments when I don't believe in their authority?

 

Am I a "good" person? Depends on your definition of good, I suppose. And that's my point. You treat "good" and "evil" as if they absolute attributes. They aren't. They are subjective to the culture and the time. Even many Christians, when pressed about the OT laws against pork, shellfish and the like, claim these were laws for "these people in this time".

 

Oh, the analogy about the guy raised on the island standing in front of the judge. You forget 2 points: 1 - ignorance of the law (in this case the lack of social conditioning, ie conscience) does not excuse you from the law. 2 - anyone in the state you described would probably be declared incompetant and would be placed in and institution. He would be "innocent" by reason of insanity!

 

Don't get me wrong Chris, I know where you are coming from. I USED to BE where you are coming from. Like many here, I didn't CHOOSE not to believe in god, I simply don't...

 

IMOHO,

[Mythra]

Temptation is morally neutral, but giving way to lustful thoughts is where adultery is born. Same as every murder began with a hateful thought.Luther said, "You can't stop birds from flying over your head, but you can stop them from making nests in your hair."

 

The Wisdom Book of Mythra states this: (and I quote) :

 

"Extreme sexual repression = extreme sexual obsession."

 

And Chris, if you have truly tried to deny your sexuality, you know that this saying is true.

[Onyx]

Tsk, prude!

That's the last word I've had to say.

[Mythra]

Chris: you do know that True Christians emasculate themselves in order to avoid temptation, right?

 

If you truly love Jesus, you'll take the Origen route and slice em off.

[Lycorth]

What's wrong with getting horny?

 

Temptation is morally neutral, but giving way to lustful thoughts is where adultery is born. Same as every murder began with a hateful thought.

 

Luther said, "You can't stop birds from flying over your head, but you can stop them from making nests in your hair."

 

That doesn't answer my question. What is wrong with sexual excitement to the point of having intense physical desire for another human being? And what is wrong with adultery, provided all parties are aware and consensually agree to it? The Holah Babble is supposed to be some infallible moral guide, well, prove it. Prove how getting hot and bothered is a person's downfall every single time it occurs. Otherwise, if it is not detrimental like that, how can it be wrong?

 

Luther's words make no sense here. You argument proceeds from the assumption that fleshly desire is inherently wrong. Please prove that it is. Without fleshly desire, there would be no human race, and no one to turn into Xians.

 

Not every murder begins with a hateful thought. Some killers feel nothing for their victims or their actions. Many acts of murder were unintentional, such as noncombatants killed during the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The bomber crews weren't full of hatred for every single Japanese man, woman, and child that they knew their actions would kill. Or a drunk driver who runs someone over, yet got sloshed without thinking "I'm gonna kill me someone tonight because I serve Satan!" Nor is a judge who mistakenly sentences the wrong man to die for a crime, and the execution is carried out. To say that every murder begins with a hateful thought is just more Xian anti-human psychobabble, trying to tie every bad thing in the world to eeevil human nature. It lacks scientific and rational basis, just like the whole of Xianity. If you contend that every murder is encouraged by a hateful thought, please prove so, or admit the Babble isn't reliable as a guide to human moral behavior.

[pandora]

Don't y'all know that God changed our genes so that we would sin? After The Fall, it was part of the curse on mankind. Duh.