Incomprehensibility Of Christian Mindsets

[Asimov]

I've been thinking about this for the past 5 minutes and thought I'd share my thoughts.

 

Frequently, my discussions with Christians revolve around morality and it's objectivity, subjectivity, or projectionist leanings.

 

Now, one of the arguments brought up by those I discuss with is the argument that morality is built into our systems at birth...or rather, they say that it's written in our hearts.

 

The implication regarding this is that morality is thus a genetic behaviour, much like some people are inclined to be more aggressive or passive, sociopaths, empaths, overly emotional, social or antisocial...etc.

 

The problem with this argument is that it suddenly means that if morality is a genetic behaviour, but if our nature is a sinful one (according to Christian Doctrine) then logically what the Christian is saying is that by nature we know what is right and wrong, but by nature we are also inclined to be immoral.

 

Doesn't really make sense does it?

 

Not only that, but if God instilled in us this sense of right and wrong, then why the need for a bible? Why a need for a rule book?

[Kuroikaze]

 

Not only that, but if God instilled in us this sense of right and wrong, then why the need for a bible? Why a need for a rule book?

 

yes, and if god "wrote the law in our hearts" or some nonsense, how come various cultures of the world disagree on fundamental moral issues

[Asimov]

yes, and if god "wrote the law in our hearts" or some nonsense, how come various cultures of the world disagree on fundamental moral issues

 

 

Right, basically it's the moral system as told by "intuitionists" but with a christian slant to it.

[Mike D]

The implication regarding this is that morality is thus a genetic behaviour

Right, that's why our parents spend the first 10 years of our life doing nothing but wasting all their time and energy trying to teach us right from wrong. It's just more smoke and mirrors to try fool the gullible and simple minded into believing Chrstianity is true.

[Mythra]

That's actually a pretty good point, Asimov. If mankind is so inherently sinful, why do we even have an opinion about what's right and wrong? If we were truly such evil creatures, nothing would seem wrong to us. It would be anything goes. Every man for himself, and nothing is taboo. Kill or maim anyone who looks at you wrong.

 

It's only like that in people who have brain damage or severe mental illness.

 

Whether people are under the "influence" of the Holy Sprite or just plain ordinary people, for the most part - decency reigns.

[Fweethawt]

Not only that, but if God instilled in us this sense of right and wrong, then why the need for a bible? Why a need for a rule book?

Don't forget now, God's original intention was for us to not have knowledge of good and evil. So, the object of Christianity is to take this knowledge and completely fuck it up so that we don't use it anymore.

 

Makes sense now, doesn't it.

[Chris de Vidal]

I've been thinking about this for the past 5 minutes and thought I'd share my thoughts.

 

Frequently, my discussions with Christians revolve around morality and it's objectivity, subjectivity, or projectionist leanings.

 

Now, one of the arguments brought up by those I discuss with is the argument that morality is built into our systems at birth...or rather, they say that it's written in our hearts.

 

The implication regarding this is that morality is thus a genetic behaviour, much like some people are inclined to be more aggressive or passive, sociopaths, empaths, overly emotional, social or antisocial...etc.

 

The problem with this argument is that it suddenly means that if morality is a genetic behaviour, but if our nature is a sinful one (according to Christian Doctrine) then logically what the Christian is saying is that by nature we know what is right and wrong, but by nature we are also inclined to be immoral.

 

Doesn't really make sense does it?

 

Not only that, but if God instilled in us this sense of right and wrong, then why the need for a bible? Why a need for a rule book?

 

 

You know, that is a fine question.

 

 

You can choose to reject this, I just want to give an answer from what I believe the Bible teaches.

 

 

You've probably bumped into "Way of the Master" students like me. I urge you to first familiarize yourself with "True and False Conversion." Even if you don't agree with it, at least it'll help understand the Christian perspective with a point-of-view that has not been discussed in the church over the last 100 years. This Christianity stuff really doesn't make sense without that understanding.

 

 

My group of people, the reformed Christians, interpret the Bible to say that we all are morally bent toward evil. And we really don't need the Bible to tell us what is right and wrong, because we have a conscience.

 

Conscience means, "with knowledge." Every time we sin we do it with the knowledge that it's wrong.

 

You *know* it's wrong to purposely decieve someone for selfish reasons (lie).

You *know* it's wrong to lust.

You *know* it's wrong to hate.

You *know* it's wrong to steal.

You *know* that if there's a creator you should not blaspheme His name.

You *know* that if there's a creator you should worship Him with all your heart/soul/mind/strength.

 

Yet all we choose to do is wrong, wrong, wrong!

 

The rule book is there NOT to give us a standard we can attain but as a mirror to demonstrate just how unrighteous we are. We think we are Good People. The rulebook says otherwise. It was never intended to give us a bar to reach but to slay us and cause us to recognize our need for Him. I think that's the thrust of chapters like Romans 7. We are all held up in Him, we should all worship Him, and the Law shows us our need for Him. It draws us to Him for help like a beggar draws near to free bread.

 

 

So why does God judge us for doing what comes naturally? Good question.

 

The answer given in Romans 9 readily answers why. It's rather long, but Paul asks the same questions. He then asks, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (verse 19)

 

God answers, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (verses 20-24 ESV)

 

His reasons given:

* Desire to show wrath

* Make known His power

* Make known His patience toward His enemies

* Make known the riches of His glory for His beloved (ME!!!)

 

Other scriptures indicate that God doesn't willingly or happily afflict but He does afflict, which is like a good parent who hates to discipline his child but does so for his best interest. He has other desires to uphold, such as the ones listed above or the desire to protect his freedom to choose.

 

This isn't a perfect analogy and will get you into trouble if you press it, but think of the mosquito. By nature it seeks you out, annoys you, draws blood, spreads disease, causes an itch, etc. By its nature. And yet it's perfectly fair for you to slap it, spray it, keep it out with screens, etc.

 

Our nature is wickedness. We are enemies of God through our wicked works. We should be giving Him the glory He deserves but we shake our puny fist at Him or ignore Him or prostitute ourselves with other lovers (other gods). He is just for executing judgement and keeping us out of heaven.

 

I think one of the reasons we have great difficulty with this is we press a philosophical presupposition into the Bible. We assume that in order to have responsibility one MUST have ability. But the Bible doesn't say that! If you accept the authority of the Bible, (and here's why I do) you must agree with it.

 

In fact, I've found two scriptures that say the opposite, that certain people were unable to make right decisions and yet they were judged by it (email me chris AT devidal DOT tv if you're curious).

 

Don't glue these two concepts together. Treat them separately and see what the bible says about each:

Responsibility: Everyone must repent and trust the savior for salvation.

Ability: We are dead, unable, blind, helpless, etc.

 

 

Another problem you and others in the world have in understanding this is you are not OUTRAGED by salvation. If the God of the universe is real, and He is a holy and just and unbendingly righteous judge, it is an utter outrage that He would just pardon guilty criminals! Outrageous! A Duval County judge that did that would be off the bench in a week! But no, every guilty criminal thinks he deserves heaven. No one is outraged about free pardon. Justice had to be served, and yet here guilty criminals walk free.

 

It was so outrageous that God had to carry out justice on His Son. To not carry out justice would be injust, and yet to carry it out on His Son was infinitely loving! And it demonstrates just how glorious He really is! I think that's the thrust of Romans 3:21-26.

 

 

And I want to revisit a previous point. I am convinced we are not created for our own happiness but to glorify Him. (The cool thing is when we glorify Him by being happiest/satisfied in Him, I think He is MOST glorified. So our happiness and His glory are not at odds).

 

You can either say He's lacking glory, or you can say that it is not a problem when a spring of cool, living water is so good it overflows. God wanted to share Himself with us because He is so supremely good. And He allowed darkness so we would understand His goodness. Like the diamond on the black velvet background, so is the evil that is allowed which contrasts with good so well.

 

Could you explain more?

Cold is the absense of heat.

Black is the absense of light.

Evil is the absense of good.

 

I think the Bible says He allowed evil to appear so as to make it apparent what goodness really looks like.

 

 

All of this, I think, is a more glorious story than to say we have the ability to do right and God rewards that. No, I believe the God who created the mosquito gets stung by them on a regular basis. He patiently endures the stings. Out of love for those mosquitos and out of a desire to demonstrate How glorious He is, He sends His Son to become one of them but never stings anyone, not even the mosquito maker. He intentionally gets slapped for the other mosquitoes. Those that admit they are mosquitos (and not butterflies) and apologize for stinging their maker and others and believe that the Son's sacrifice pays the debt owed are transformed into butterflies!

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but I hope that makes sense. I think that's in essense what the Bible says.

 

 

For 15 years I was a false Christian. I stung my creator by disobeying Him, spurning His commands, and not giving Him what He deserved. But now that I've truly been born again I am a new creation. I am no longer permanently a slave to my old sin nature. I no longer willingly walk in sin (which I did before). I now find Jesus precious (which I didn't before). I now am able to give God the worship He so rightly deserves!

 

 

Of course you can choose to reject this. I'm merely giving you my explaination as to why the Christian believes it to be so, according to the Bible. Check out "True and False Conversions" and maybe DesiringGod.org for some more clarity.

[thunderbolt]

Right, basically it's the moral system as told by "intuitionists" but with a christian slant to it.

Yes, I think they are bixsexual - they want it both ways on every issue

[Astreja]

Chris, if you're going to spend the rest of your life trying to convince yourself that you and everyone else is eeeevil...

 

...Please stay as far away from me and my loved ones as possible.

 

You *know* that if there's a creator you should not blaspheme His name.

You *know* that if there's a creator you should worship Him with all your heart/soul/mind/strength.

Uh, no, I don't *know* any such thing. Any god worthy of the title doesn't give a rat's ass about blasphemy or worship.

 

But any human with two brain cells to rub together *should* be able to see that the disseminators of the Bible and similar scriptures have consistently reaped personal benefits by scaring their fellow humans into cowed submission. This has nothing to do with loving a god. It's all about power. Earthly power.

 

Please don't sacrifice yourself to crumbling old paper written by people you never met in a language you don't understand.

[Asimov]

You know, that is a fine question.

 

They were rhetorical.

 

You can choose to reject this, I just want to give an answer from what I believe the Bible teaches.

 

If God exists, then no, I can't choose anything....but let's proceed:

 

My group of people, the reformed Christians, interpret the Bible to say that we all are morally bent toward evil. And we really don't need the Bible to tell us what is right and wrong, because we have a conscience.

 

Why are we morally bent towards evil? Because of our fallen nature? Why do we have a fallen nature? Because God gave us that fallen nature. He didn't have to make it pass on to Adam...again, incomprehensibility. If we are morally bent towards evil, then our conscience tells us to do so.

 

Conscience means, "with knowledge." Every time we sin we do it with the knowledge that it's wrong.

 

The amazing ability of Christians to rewrite definitions of words. I don't agree with that definition because you arbitrarily applied it.

 

Conscience:

 

1. The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide.

2. A source of moral or ethical judgment or pronouncement: a document that serves as the nation's conscience.

3. Conformity to one's own sense of right conduct: a person of unflagging conscience.

 

Your argument falls apart before you even get started, Chris.

 

It states specifically that our conscience guides us in the moral actions that we have. Since we are morally bent towards evil and God gave us our conscience, then God gave us this evil moral conscience.

 

 

You *know* it's wrong to purposely decieve someone for selfish reasons (lie).

You *know* it's wrong to lust.

You *know* it's wrong to hate.

You *know* it's wrong to steal.

You *know* that if there's a creator you should not blaspheme His name.

You *know* that if there's a creator you should worship Him with all your heart/soul/mind/strength.

 

Lying is not what you stated it as. Lust is not wrong, hate is not wrong, stealing is not always wrong, it's not wrong to blaspheme my creators name unless he tells me it's so, and I should only worship something that I idolize or find worthy of idolatry, and that includes my creator.

 

God answers, "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (verses 20-24 ESV)

 

IOW, "wah! I dont' want to answer your fucking question because I'm a big pussy!

 

My God, Paul should not speak for his creator, because he makes him look like an asshole 3 year old. And 3 year olds suck.

 

His reasons given:

* Desire to show wrath

* Make known His power

* Make known His patience toward His enemies

* Make known the riches of His glory for His beloved (ME!!!)

 

3 year-old.

Other scriptures indicate that God doesn't willingly or happily afflict but He does afflict, which is like a good parent who hates to discipline his child but does so for his best interest.

 

"Daddy, please don't hurt me!"

"I hurt because I love!!!"

 

Another problem you and others in the world have in understanding this is you are not OUTRAGED by salvation. If the God of the universe is real, and He is a holy and just and unbendingly righteous judge, it is an utter outrage that He would just pardon guilty criminals! Outrageous! A Duval County judge that did that would be off the bench in a week! But no, every guilty criminal thinks he deserves heaven. No one is outraged about free pardon. Justice had to be served, and yet here guilty criminals walk free.

 

Um...I'm not outraged because it's all fiction you dumb shit.

 

Of course you can choose to reject this. I'm merely giving you my explaination as to why the Christian believes it to be so, according to the Bible. Check out "True and False Conversions" and maybe DesiringGod.org for some more clarity.

 

Of course I choose to reject it. It's stupid and you didn't even present an argument. You merely evangelized and shittered all over my fucking thread.

 

[Fweethawt]

You merely evangelized and shittered all over my fucking thread.

He said, "shittered".

 

[jrmarlin]

Chris look up Isaiah 45 - verse 7:

 

It very clearly states in God's supposed words verbatum:

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

So if we're evil as you say then God made us this way. If God made us this way then I guess in God's eyes its hunkie dorie to be evil. What are you bitching about? Get off the cross and give Jesus a turn.

[Lycorth]

Good point, Asimov. I used to be in the Xian camp that believe the Lard wrote all morality on our hearts, and it is quite asinine when compared with the fact that Xianity teaches that we're all eeevil dog turds, like our buddy Chris above thinks. When you introduce the human conscience and make a bunch of claims about it, you undercut the Xian argument of original sin and man's inherently sinful nature. You simply can't have it both ways.

 

You *know* it's wrong to lust.

 

What's wrong with getting horny?

 

You *know* that if there's a creator you should not blaspheme His name.

 

What's wrong with that? If the Creator(s) cared, we'd know. No messages, no need to worry.

 

You *know* that if there's a creator you should worship Him with all your heart/soul/mind/strength.

 

See above. Sorry, but only Judiasm, Xianity, Islam, and their offshoots teach that. That's an instilled belief, not an instinctive response.

 

Yet all we choose to do is wrong, wrong, wrong!

 

Only compared with the demonic standards of the Xian devilgod. Otherwise, we're just fine.

 

We do reject it, Chris. If you want people to listen to you, come here and do something better than try to convert us to your self-hating deathcult. If you want to despise yourself and your loved ones, that's your choice. But parade your ignorant assumptions around here and expect them to get shoved up your ass. My piss stream is more sacred than all your scripchahs and churches and your three-in-one demon whom you serve. You prove you are too afraid to think outside your cult's brainwashings when all you can do is parrot Xian propaganda.

 

Bottom line is that the demon called Yahweh™ or Jehovah™ cannot possibly have written any moral code on our hearts and then automatically hate us from birth on account of our inherently sinful nature. You can't get it both ways.

[Kryten]

Chris look up Isaiah 45 - verse 7:

 

It very clearly states in God's supposed words verbatum:

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

So if we're evil as you say then God made us this way. If God made us this way then I guess in God's eyes its hunkie dorie to be evil.

 

What are you bitching about? Get off the cross and give Jesus a turn.

 

Excellent!

[Chris de Vidal]

Of course I choose to reject it. It's stupid and you didn't even present an argument. You merely evangelized and shittered all over my fucking thread.

 

I'm sorry, I thought you were really seeking to understand Christians with an open mind.

[Mike D]

You *know* it's wrong to purposely decieve someone for selfish reasons (lie).

You *know* it's wrong to lust.

You *know* it's wrong to hate.

You *know* it's wrong to steal.

You *know* that if there's a creator you should not blaspheme His name.

Yes you're right I knew all this stuff the second my mom popped me out in the hospital.

 

You, like so many Christians, are in complete and total denial of reality! Humans by default start out without knowledge of anything. Yet you say we know from birth (because that's what inherent knowledge is) that it's wrong to "blaspheme" the "creator"?? LMAO, get real!

 

You *know* that if there's a creator you should worship Him with all your heart/soul/mind/strength.

Illogical! If we don't absolutely know there's a creator then why would we absolutely know we should worship it?? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Chris de Vidal]

Chris look up Isaiah 45 - verse 7:

 

It very clearly states in God's supposed words verbatum:

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

I have noticed that people pick apart verses their opponents use with context and hebrew/greek but don't examine their own with the same scrutiny. You might want to check the word "evil" at BlueLetterBible.com and also see what scholars and commentators have concluded that word really meant in the original hebrew.

 

Second, evil cannot be created. I read this very fine Stand To Reason article just this morning:

A Good Reason for Evil -- "What is evil? Could it have a purpose? Here is a view of evil from an adult rather than a childish perspecitve."

 

 

 

More STR resources about evil:

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5350#1evil

 

What's wrong with getting horny?

 

Temptation is morally neutral, but giving way to lustful thoughts is where adultery is born. Same as every murder began with a hateful thought.

 

Luther said, "You can't stop birds from flying over your head, but you can stop them from making nests in your hair."

[jrmarlin]

Chris look up Isaiah 45 - verse 7:

 

It very clearly states in God's supposed words verbatum:

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

I have noticed that people pick apart verses their opponents use with context and hebrew/greek but don't examine their own with the same scrutiny. You might want to check the word "evil" at BlueLetterBible.com and also see what scholars and commentators have concluded that word really meant in the original hebrew.

 

Second, evil cannot be created. I read this very fine Stand To Reason article just this morning:

A Good Reason for Evil -- "What is evil? Could it have a purpose? Here is a view of evil from an adult rather than a childish perspecitve."

 

 

 

More STR resources about evil:

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5350#1evil

Chris, that is the whole verse. Look it up. It is the whole verse verbatum. Look it up. Look it up. Look it up.

 

By the way... the whole context excuse doesn't work. Your people cherry pick the bible worse than anyone else on this planet to placate your egos and prove yourself to yourself. So don't even go there, sister.

 

The Verses before and after 7:

 

45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: (45:5-6)

How many gods are there?

45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Is God the creator of evil?

45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. "Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself."

Does God hide himself?

45:16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. "I have sworn by myself."

Is it okay to swear?

45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

 

The above scripture was taken from the Skeptic Annotation Bible - Comparing and contrasting....

[NotBlinded]

Second, evil cannot be created. I read this very fine Stand To Reason article just this morning:

A Good Reason for Evil -- "What is evil? Could it have a purpose? Here is a view of evil from an adult rather than a childish perspecitve."

I'd like to ask you a question in regard to that article. I can agree with the reasoning about evil not being a thing and that all things must have a beginning. Do you understand god as a thing? If so, it must have a beginning. If not, then how can you say that you understand, and can describe, the properties of no-thing?

[Chris de Vidal]

Conscience:

 

1. The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide.

2. A source of moral or ethical judgment or pronouncement: a document that serves as the nation's conscience.

3. Conformity to one's own sense of right conduct: a person of unflagging conscience.

 

Your argument falls apart before you even get started, Chris.

 

You know, you are partially right. I should have developed that thought.

 

Con means with, science means knowledge. Every time you sin, you do it with the knowledge it's wrong.

 

Do you understand god as a thing? If so, it must have a beginning. If not, then how can you say that you understand, and can describe, the properties of no-thing?

 

 

That is a very good question. Thank you for not having the same hateful attitude the others have.

 

 

I totally agree with Ray Comfort's very reasonable explaination:

I have found from experience that the popular atheist's question, "Who made God?" doesn't deserve to have a question mark. It is usually presented as a statement. The questioner is persuaded that such a question cannot be answered. A twinkle is usually seen in his eye as he tosses what he thinks is his trump card onto the table. He gambles his very soul on the belief that there is no higher card--that it cannot be answered.

 

Actually, the explanation is very simple. Does space have an end? If it does--if there is a brick wall at the end of space that reads "The End," I want to know what's behind the brick wall. By faith you and I are forced to believe that no matter in which direction we set off, space will never end. It just goes on and on and on--forever. It has no beginning or end. It hurts the brain to think about such a state, but we have no choice but to accept that fact by faith.

 

God also has no beginning and no end. But with God, we have a little more information than we have with space. Time is a dimension that God has created and it is to this dimension that mankind is subjected. We have to wait for time to pass. We can't jump ahead even one second in time. We are enslaved in its power. It is because we are in time that reason demands a beginning and an end. It hurts the brain to think of any other dimension.

 

God is not subject to the dimension of time. He dwells in eternity. The Bible tells us that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to us (see Psalm 90:4 & 2 Peter 3:8). You can prove this for yourself by studying the prophecies of the Bible mentioned in a later chapter. God can flick through time as you and I flick through the pages of a history book. If you find this hard to believe, even when confronted with the evidence of biblical prophecies, you will find it to be true one day. The Scriptures tell us that God will eventually withdraw time, and we will then dwell in eternity.

From God Doesn't Believe In Atheists. (You can read the first chapter for free.)

 

I cannot improve upon that.

 

Thanks again for your attitude! I respect that.

 

Chris look up Isaiah 45 - verse 7:

 

It very clearly states in God's supposed words verbatum:

45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

I have noticed that people pick apart verses their opponents use with context and hebrew/greek but don't examine their own with the same scrutiny. You might want to check the word "evil" at BlueLetterBible.com and also see what scholars and commentators have concluded that word really meant in the original hebrew.

 

Second, evil cannot be created. I read this very fine Stand To Reason article just this morning:

A Good Reason for Evil -- "What is evil? Could it have a purpose? Here is a view of evil from an adult rather than a childish perspecitve."

 

 

 

More STR resources about evil:

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5350#1evil

Chris, that is the whole verse. Look it up. It is the whole verse verbatum. Look it up. Look it up. Look it up.

 

Kind sir, in this instance I was talking about the hebrew, not the context. But even then sometimes one must understand the context to help interpret difficult hebrew.

 

If I were doing a study on this verse, I might start with this resource:http://www.carm.org/diff/Isa_45_7.htm

[NotBlinded]

You know, you are partially right. I should have developed that thought.

 

Con means with, science means knowledge. Every time you sin, you do it with the knowledge it's wrong.

The only thing that you have shown is that our conscience tells us when we are doing wrong based on prior knowledge. You have not shown that that knowledge comes before birth...yet! :-}

 

Sin is 'missing the mark' and it is the result of not knowing that we are all one...we are all the same stuff. 'Sin' presents itself in mistaking the 'knowledge' that we are all separate as the truth. All other 'sin' results from that misunderstanding. We become double-minded.

 

So, it's the lack of knowledge of who we are that causes 'sin'. It is also believing in knowledge that is not true, which is the same thing. (The Adam and Eve allegory)

[NotBlinded]

Do you understand god as a thing? If so, it must have a beginning. If not, then how can you say that you understand, and can describe, the properties of no-thing?

 

 

That is a very good question. Thank you for not having the same hateful attitude the others have.

 

 

I totally agree with Ray Comfort's very reasonable explaination:

I have found from experience that the popular atheist's question, "Who made God?" doesn't deserve to have a question mark. It is usually presented as a statement. The questioner is persuaded that such a question cannot be answered. A twinkle is usually seen in his eye as he tosses what he thinks is his trump card onto the table. He gambles his very soul on the belief that there is no higher card--that it cannot be answered.

 

Actually, the explanation is very simple. Does space have an end? If it does--if there is a brick wall at the end of space that reads "The End," I want to know what's behind the brick wall. By faith you and I are forced to believe that no matter in which direction we set off, space will never end. It just goes on and on and on--forever. It has no beginning or end. It hurts the brain to think about such a state, but we have no choice but to accept that fact by faith.

 

God also has no beginning and no end. But with God, we have a little more information than we have with space. Time is a dimension that God has created and it is to this dimension that mankind is subjected. We have to wait for time to pass. We can't jump ahead even one second in time. We are enslaved in its power. It is because we are in time that reason demands a beginning and an end. It hurts the brain to think of any other dimension.

 

God is not subject to the dimension of time. He dwells in eternity. The Bible tells us that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to us (see Psalm 90:4 & 2 Peter 3:8). You can prove this for yourself by studying the prophecies of the Bible mentioned in a later chapter. God can flick through time as you and I flick through the pages of a history book. If you find this hard to believe, even when confronted with the evidence of biblical prophecies, you will find it to be true one day. The Scriptures tell us that God will eventually withdraw time, and we will then dwell in eternity.

From God Doesn't Believe In Atheists. (You can read the first chapter for free.)

 

I cannot improve upon that.

 

Thanks again for your attitude! I respect that.

You're welcome. But, don't judge too hastily.

 

I understand what Ray says here, but I disagree. Space and time are dimensions of the same reality and therefore must have a beginning. Space, time and matter all came about at the same instant (as far as I know). One cannot compare god to space, I know, I have tried! Space and time is only applicable as a means for measurement between matter. If there were no matter, space and time would not exist as such.

 

If there is a god, if would have to be outside the dimensions of space, time and matter. It is the unmanifested that was and always will be intertwined with the manifested. It can only be known subjectively and then expressed by the use of forms (words), and in this process, god is diminished into the realm of the manifested. The bible and other religions are only pointers in order to get people to 'experience' the realm of the unmanifested.

 

You know, you really didn't answer my question though... I wasn't trying to show that god didn't exist, I was just wanting your rationale for being able to give qualities to something that is not a thing. Can you answer for me?

 

Oh, we dwell in eternity everytime we are completely aware of the present moment. There is only the now...ever.

[Amethyst]

The problem with this argument is that it suddenly means that if morality is a genetic behaviour, but if our nature is a sinful one (according to Christian Doctrine) then logically what the Christian is saying is that by nature we know what is right and wrong, but by nature we are also inclined to be immoral.

 

Doesn't really make sense does it?

 

Not only that, but if God instilled in us this sense of right and wrong, then why the need for a bible? Why a need for a rule book?

 

Good point. We logically shouldn't need a rule book if morality is somehow genetically implanted into us, rather than it being based on social norms (which it is).

 

Hey, you forgot the bold type.

[Antlerman]

"Morality" is nothing more than a particular set of socially acceptable behaviors by which cooperation in a society is best served. There is nothing innate outside of possible a sense of needing community for the sake of individual survival. Knowedge of a God is purely a learned concept.

 

 

The Bible is nothing more that 3 things:

 

1. A social book of laws for a particular cultural for codes of conduct which support the community

2. A collection of various spiritual truisms from spiritually minded aesthetics

3. A tribal priesthood book of myth stories for instructions and control of the people they desire to govern

 

Who is God? He is the servant of the instinct to survive in human beings. The essence of life is Survival; Cooperation serves social animals such as humans. Principles of Love foster cooperation. God is a symbol of Love and socially acceptable conduct that promotes attitudes and actions of cooperation. Man creates and modifies God to serve this purpose for himself. God is a servant of Man who serves his own Survival.

 

All this theological reading of Chris's is really nice, however it is nothing more that a tool that seems to work for a few individuals to accomplish the above. There are many versions of God depending on what best serves the cultures of the True Divine Creators: Human Beings. The downside, when the created God is taken as strictly true as Chris does, though it may work within a closed, rural-type society with a single minded mythology, in a cosmopolitan, and even a global society in which we all live - you become shut out from the world around you, and the myth system works against the whole human being who lives in a greater society. You become out of touch with the world and God is now a detrimate to those who believe dogmatically. Greater socialization is no longer being served.

 

Summary: Every thing said in Chris' theological treatise fails to address the reality of today’s world. It is mythology supporting mythology as end to itself.

[Chris de Vidal]

You know, you are partially right. I should have developed that thought.

 

Con means with, science means knowledge. Every time you sin, you do it with the knowledge it's wrong.

The only thing that you have shown is that our conscience tells us when we are doing wrong based on prior knowledge. You have not shown that that knowledge comes before birth...yet! :-}

 

Sin is 'missing the mark' and it is the result of not knowing that we are all one...we are all the same stuff. 'Sin' presents itself in mistaking the 'knowledge' that we are all separate as the truth. All other 'sin' results from that misunderstanding. We become double-minded.

 

So, it's the lack of knowledge of who we are that causes 'sin'. It is also believing in knowledge that is not true, which is the same thing. (The Adam and Eve allegory)

 

It's unhelpful that "sin" in the Bible can have two different meanings. I don't know if this is an English translation problem or just that one needs to study the context to get the meaning.

 

There is our moral bent toward evil. We are sinners by nature.

 

Out of that moral bent comes transgression of the Law (see 1 John 3:4 and this topical study.)

 

So sin that comes from the sin nature is done with the knowledge that it is wrong. We are sinners at conception, just as I was an American at birth. Because we are sinners, we transgress the Law (sin).

 

Did that make sense?

 

I understand what Ray says here, but I disagree.

 

Well I'm not convinced by your argument, so we'll agree to disagree.

 

 

You know, you really didn't answer my question though...

 

I'm sorry! Don't you hate it when people do that?? Good questions deserve attention when someone takes the time to ask it thoughtfully.

 

 

I wasn't trying to show that god didn't exist, I was just wanting your rationale for being able to give qualities to something that is not a thing. Can you answer for me?

 

Could you please explain your question? I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

 

And by the way, if I don't answer it's not because I'm ignoring you. I've suddenly come into free time but that could change.

 

Summary: Every thing said in Chris' theological treatise fails to address the reality of today’s world. It is mythology supporting mythology as end to itself.

 

I think sin is the only reason to explain why evil exists and this world is not the perfect paradise it was originally intended to be. Mankind screwed it up! I think it's the best explaination why, for example, Muslims fly planes into buildings.

 

Check out that Stand To Reason article, it rocks!