Incomprehensibility Of Christian Mindsets

[Lycorth]

Oh, you are.

 

*shakes Varokhar's hand*

*buys Varokhar a beer*

 

You're very welcome, Fwee

 

I totally agree.

 

For the love of his paper god, Chris is going to teach his very own son to hate himself.

 

He hates his own son.

 

And he does it with a smile on his face.

 

Indeed, and that only goes to display the depth of his mind-numbness, the degree to which he has been brainwashed by his human-hating cult.

 

I still want to see if the little punk has even a shred of testicular fortitude to respond to what I've said, or what anyone else here has said, and defend his dead bastard on a stick.

[Fweethawt]

I know Fweethawt ... what scares me is wondering exactly what it takes to crush a child's spirit.

Teaching him (from birth) that he is a wretched, evil and worthless Human Being, that's how. It's what Christianity is best at, for the most part.

[Open_Minded]

I know Fweethawt ... what scares me is wondering exactly what it takes to crush a child's spirit.

Teaching him (from birth) that he is a wretched, evil and worthless Human Being, that's how. It's what Christianity is best at, for the most part.

 

OK ... I know this .. .but how. I know this seems niave to you ... but seriously I'm entering that parallel universe mode again.

 

Is there physical abuse.

 

Is that what this child has to look forward to? Just exactly how do you break the spirit of a child?

 

 

....

 

Will you "spare the rod" Chris????

[Mythra]

You were not born wicked, and whoever convinced you that you were was abusing you. DO NOT DO THE SAME THING TO YOUR SON, THAT WAS DONE TO YOU.

 

You know what I find completely amazing? That you, Open Minded, and this Chris guy can both get your inspiration for life from the same book.

 

I mean that as a great compliment to you. You are a quality individual, and it comes through in your posts.

 

But I also mean it as a slam on your book. If one book can be so enigmatic and convoluted as to produce two individuals that are such polar opposites, what does that say about it?

[Fweethawt]

Indeed, and that only goes to display the depth of his mind-numbness, the degree to which he has been brainwashed by his human-hating cult.

He's simply living out the blessed words of Luke 14:26, in vivid color. That's all.

 

That's one of the finer verses penned by the devious demon behind the Christian religion.

 

I still want to see if the little punk has even a shred of testicular fortitude to respond to what I've said, or what anyone else here has said, and defend his dead bastard on a stick.

Fortitude is not something you will often find within the person of a believer. Don't forget, it's the lack of such a virtue that drives people into accepting this religion as "truth".

 

It's also the very thing that pulled most of us out of the cult.

 

 

Fortitude : strength of mind that enables a person to encounter danger or bear pain or adversity with courage.

[Lycorth]

Haha - very good point, Fwee. He's just hating everything he can in the name of Jesus™. He's being a great little Xian

 

And no, there's a part of me that really doesn't think he's got what it takes to be a man and respond to what I've said. He usually ignores what I say to him, and I can only presume because he knows he doesn't have snappy answers for someone like me, or whatever. Either way, my challenge still stands, and this is a great opportunity for him to impress his imaginary friend!

[Astreja]

...in obedience to Jesus' command I will be asking God to keep you all safe and healthy in the next few months.

I reject your prayer and throw it back in your face. I want no part of your god's murderous "blessings," nor the "good wishes" of someone who would consciously and willingly terrorize their own child's mind with tales of hellfire.

[Fweethawt]

I know Fweethawt ... what scares me is wondering exactly what it takes to crush a child's spirit.

Teaching him (from birth) that he is a wretched, evil and worthless Human Being, that's how. It's what Christianity is best at, for the most part.

OK ... I know this .. .but how.

Each and every person is an individual. Each and every person is born with the potential (there's that word again) to express their individuality in either a good and progressive way, or a bad and intransigent manner.

 

If you beat them down, both mentally and physically, rarely do they ever realize their individual potential. (there's that word again. only this time, it's in a different context. )

 

Is there physical abuse.

Sure! Why not? Anything for the Kingdom™, no?

 

Is that what this child has to look forward to? Just exactly how do you break the spirit of a child?

Don't forget now, you're talking to a Christian Fundamentalist™ here. What a normal Human Being considers "breaking the spirit of a child" to be, a believer considers it to be "Building Up In The Lord™".

 

So yes, it is very possible that this is exactly what this child has to look forward to. What is a True Christian's™ outlook, if not bleak?

 

....

Will you "spare the rod" Chris????

Go grab yourself a drink, then come back and answer this one yourself.

[Open_Minded]

You were not born wicked, and whoever convinced you that you were was abusing you. DO NOT DO THE SAME THING TO YOUR SON, THAT WAS DONE TO YOU.

 

You know what I find completely amazing? That you, Open Minded, and this Chris guy can both get your inspiration for life from the same book.

 

I mean that as a great compliment to you. You are a quality individual, and it comes through in your posts.

 

Thank you Mythra ... I sincerely mean that.

 

But I also mean it as a slam on your book. If one book can be so enigmatic and convoluted as to produce two individuals that are such polar opposites, what does that say about it?

 

Oh, Myrthra, don't blame (or give credit to) the Bible.

 

My parents and their unconditional love produced me. My parents and their always seeing the best in their children produced me. My parents and thier expectations that we children THINK, produced me. Give credit to them.

 

I don't know who produced Chris, but I can assure you (the chances are extremely high that) the following was not part of his childhood experience:

1. Unconditional love
   
2. Someone who always saw the best (the highest potential) in him.
   
3. Someone who expected him to think, to approach the Bible and everything else with critical analysis.
   

Don't blame the Bible for him either. If his parents used it as an excuse to abuse him, that is not a reflection on the Bible it is a reflection on his parents.

 

Yes...the Bible is extremely important to me, and it is a source of inspiration. But - it does not make me who I am. Love made me who I am - and Love continues to make me every single day.

[Fweethawt]

...in obedience to Jesus' command I will be asking God to keep you all safe and healthy in the next few months.

I reject your prayer and throw it back in your face. I want no part of your god's murderous "blessings," nor the "good wishes" of someone who would consciously and willingly terrorize their own child's mind with tales of hellfire.

Now now now...

 

He's only asking his god to keep us safe for a few months. It's not like he's asking him to draw us into his warm and loving embrace for all of eternity.

 

He can't ask too much from his god.

Otherwise, he might realize that he isn't even there.

 

 

 

 

 

God damn! Am I on a sarcasm roll tonight, or what?!?!

 

[Kalidasa]

Asimov, I don't wish to derail your thread any further, but I have to say this...

 

Chris, you are one sick-minded bastard. You need professional help, and soon. Not to mention that your kid needs to be taken far away from you, so you don't harm the poor kid any further with your sheer invective and abuse.

 

And one more thing:

 

 

That is all I had to say.

[Asimov]

So...how about that topic?

[Fweethawt]

So...how about that topic?

[Lycorth]

So...how about that topic?

 

 

I think we just did a number on one Xian's mindset

[Fweethawt]

So...how about that topic?

 

I think we just did a number on one Xian's mindset

No we didn't.

 

You're forgetting that the bombardment with common sense makes faith stronger.

 

[thunderbolt]

Almost all of you have cursed me, so in obedience to Jesus' command I will be asking God to keep you all safe and healthy in the next few months.

A few months? Then what? Back to “burn you unbelieving assholes?” Seriously, if the best you can do is a “few” months, then rather shove it up your HOLIER-THAN-THOU mother fucking ass - I can look after myself just fine. I don’t need that kind of half-hearted pity, not from you or your god.

 

I find it pathetic that you would march in here with all your holy commandments of what we are supposed to believe, or how we should behave to get into your heaven, but when you transgress your own stupid made-up rules, then all of a sudden we have to pardon you for your lapse of unholy insanity?

 

No, I hold your god responsible for creating such crapy examples of who he supposedly is and love - you. You have not only revealed yourself but your god in BIG NEON SIGNS. He is not worthy of my adoration. Neither you, nor your god can keep the standard and rules you came to cram down our throats here in such an arrogant way as if you have found some enlightened truth about how to be a perfect moral example for sweet Jesus. You failed dude! YOU are one of the reasons I don’t believe, and I will tell your god that on judgment day! So, I don’t want to hear anymore “I told you the truth” bullshit out of your mouth. Get it?

[Astreja]

Yes...the Bible is extremely important to me, and it is a source of inspiration. But - it does not make me who I am. Love made me who I am - and Love continues to make me every single day.

(hugs OpenMinded) Thank you... I really needed to hear that.

 

Okay, Asimov, I'm in.

 

Morality from genetics? Yeah, I can see it. In a group environment, those who go against the good of their community tend to get *whacked* by their fellow travellers.

 

Over not all that many generations, those who are genetically predisposed to "do good" will still be around, whereas an evildoer will be chased out, eaten, or otherwise cut out of the loop. Unless that evildoer is so strong that it can overpower all opposition. (Perhaps this is how predators evolve, too.)

 

1. People basically good --> No need for cultural rules of morality.

 

2. People basically evil --> Must swat them across the nose with rolled-up holy book to make them behave.

 

The problem is this: Whoever's been writing down all these holy books seemingly *does* have enough moral smarts to compile a book on cultural do's and dont's. And other people in the group have enough moral awareness to recognize that these books might be a valuable addition to their community library.

 

To me, that debunks "people are evil" right there.

 

"People are evil except for these very, very special inspired-by-a-god types," you protest. Okay, that's even more problematic. What's the magic ingredient and why did the god give it only to these select individuals? If it really, really wants its "children" to mind, and it's powerful enough to add a sense of morality to someone's evil nature, why stop at Hammurabi or Moses or whoever?

 

You're right, Asimov: It. Does. Not. Make. Any. Fucking. Sense.

[Asimov]

You're right, Asimov: It. Does. Not. Make. Any. Fucking. Sense.

 

 

And it's so simple to comprehend that a society who is inherently evil would not survive at all. If there was no law, then society would collapse and we would run around in loincloths rampantly killing each other and everything else.

 

We wouldn't be a society who progressively gets healthier, wealthier, and better!

[Astreja]

That raises another question. A big one.

 

Does a philosophy that indoctrinates a culture in the "people are evil" mindset actually create an evil society? Or at least drive us crazy with cognitive dissonance?

[Kuroikaze]

You're right, Asimov: It. Does. Not. Make. Any. Fucking. Sense.

 

 

And it's so simple to comprehend that a society who is inherently evil would not survive at all. If there was no law, then society would collapse and we would run around in loincloths rampantly killing each other and everything else.

 

We wouldn't be a society who progressively gets healthier, wealthier, and better!

 

you may have hit on something here, I think this is probably the reason fundies like pat robertson are always preaching such doom and gloom on the United States...he has to convince everyone that everything is going to shit, because if people realized that things were improving overall then the lack of logic in fundamentalism might be more obvious.

[Fweethawt]

That raises another question. A big one.

 

Does a philosophy that indoctrinates a culture in the "people are evil" mindset actually create an evil society? Or at least drive us crazy with cognitive dissonance?

I think that question is easily answered. A resounding "yes" goes out to this one.

 

Here in the States, religion, superstition and all sorts of weird and freaky shit flourishes like crazy. Christianity does just about anything it can do to halt or stump progress. The more widespread it is, the more a society infested with it begins to crumble. It's almost as if its main goal is to go after and tear down anything that progresses above and beyond its version of "perfection".

[SkepticOfBible]

Chris-- you honestly think your son will commit mass murder if he doesn't become a Christian?

 

Four months old? And you're sure he is THAT much of a sociopath?

 

Worse, if God-Forbid something happens to him? How will his god treat his baby? By torturing him in hell. Afterall "You must accept Jesus or else it's hell".

[mwc]

Too many quotes. Chris de Vidal in red.

 

 

Yet all we choose to do is wrong, wrong, wrong!

And you, as many of us here did, chose the god of the bible. I guess that you're right that we're so screwed up that we'll choose anything that is evil and wrong (,wrong, wrong!).

 

The rule book is there NOT to give us a standard we can attain but as a mirror to demonstrate just how unrighteous we are. We think we are Good People. The rulebook says otherwise.

So you'll be doing the same for your own family? Make rules that are impossible to live up to and then punish your kids for not living up to them just so they can know, by comparison, how good you are and how bad they are? Remember that rules are not meant as guides but as impossible to achieve standards to demonstrate how much better the rule maker is. Please remember to drive your car at -2 mph. You can't? You suck! (But since it's my rule I guess that means I'm pretty darn impressive wouldn't you agree?)

 

His reasons given:

* Desire to show wrath

* Make known His power

* Make known His patience toward His enemies

* Make known the riches of His glory for His beloved (ME!!!)

Ahhh...this makes much more sense now. In my sinful state I think that if I were god I would simply just appear to everyone and demonstrate who I am in all my glory. The way you have makes much more sense though. Demonstrating his power by using wrath against his enemies at some future date since he's patient reveals his glory to you.

 

Other scriptures indicate that God doesn't willingly or happily afflict but He does afflict, ...

I thought that god only did things according to his will. Are you saying that we're really willing god to punish us? Lame.

 

a good parent who hates to discipline his child but does so for his best interest. He has other desires to uphold, such as the ones listed above or the desire to protect his freedom to choose.

Yeah, sadly the whole "good parent" argument is a load of shit. Parents teach their children to stand on their own *without* the parents around. It is inevitable that most people will outlive their parents and this is a much needed skill. So when will you be getting rid of god? As I recall the exact opposite is the case. We are to always rely on god and when the next world comes we will be solely dependant on god as little children are to their parents. We aren't growing up and away from god but the opposite. The parent analogy fails the real situation. There is nothing to be learned since the next life will either be a place where god's will is always done and all needs are met or one of eternal suffering where these lessons would be useless.

 

This isn't a perfect analogy and will get you into trouble if you press it, but think of the mosquito. By nature it seeks you out, annoys you, draws blood, spreads disease, causes an itch, etc. By its nature. And yet it's perfectly fair for you to slap it, spray it, keep it out with screens, etc.

By "press it" do you mean actually think about it for a few seconds? You're right it does have some issues when pressed hard like that. Let's see. Mosquitos are a certain way by nature as you point out. They don't willingly transmit disease. They aren't thinking that by doing what they do that it will actually harm us. I swat them because they are a nuisance and nothing more. I don't hate them (I might say I do when I'm getting bit but I'm not full of hate for them). I don't plan my vengeance upon them. I can't fault them for doing exactly what they are supposed to do. If, on the other hand, that I was about to create mosquitos and I knew that they would become this terrible pest then I would either not make them or correct the flaw before continuing. I wouldn't create them with their flaw and then make them suffer when it was preventable.

 

If the God of the universe is real, and He is a holy and just and unbendingly righteous judge, it is an utter outrage that He would just pardon guilty criminals! Outrageous! A Duval County judge that did that would be off the bench in a week! But no, every guilty criminal thinks he deserves heaven. No one is outraged about free pardon. Justice had to be served, and yet here guilty criminals walk free.

 

It was so outrageous that God had to carry out justice on His Son. To not carry out justice would be injust, and yet to carry it out on His Son was infinitely loving! And it demonstrates just how glorious He really is!

God is not only the judge but the prosecute and injured party as well. God is a kangaroo court. He could, as the injured party or prosecuter, simple decide not to prosecute. You leave out that god is infinately loving, compassionate and merciful. These traits would force god to actually forgive everyone no matter what. Justice is something people seek since they have no other recourse.

 

I doubt you'd be praising that just judge if he were to punish his own son for someone else's crime. It makes no sense and is in no way loving or just. This very action is more screwed up then simply forgiving the criminal. "Please forgive those who tresspass against us." Why does it seem that god can forgive those who sin against others, without a blood sacrifice, but not against him?

 

I am convinced we are not created for our own happiness but to glorify Him.

Neat. I'm can assure you that we were created as grounds keepers and nothing more.

 

God wanted to share Himself with us because He is so supremely good. And He allowed darkness so we would understand His goodness. Like the diamond on the black velvet background, so is the evil that is allowed which contrasts with good so well.

So god was wherever god was before he made everything (which implies god was nowhere at all) and suddenly thought to himself "I'm so fucking great I think I'll make something so fucked up they'll just have to see how great I am in comparison." Are you retarded?

 

And since god is so supremely good he possessed the knowledge of everything that was evil. Let's see what that might be. Prior to making anything there was nothing except god (somewhere around 1 to 3 really). All he knew was himself and nothing else since there was nothing else. Even though he existed alone and was absolutely good he knew that there was something that was the opposite of him and it would be known as evil (maybe there was only god and this fruit tree that god wasn't supposed to eat from and, when he did he knew of evil then since being all good he could have only known of good and nothing more). He spontaneosly had full knowledge of things that he himself would then make. This includes everything including a crude, flawed, evil gnat of a being that is so beneath him that he wants it to know him and love him so that they can be pals forever. He then creates an ant farm and proceeds to piss all over it since those ants are acting like stupid fucking ants and can't seem to see beyond their own plastic walled world. When he does interact with them they bite him and it hurts his precious finger. But he loves these ants so much he parts with a representation of himself for a short time so that he can tolerate the ants. Do I have this story right?

 

So all in all you're telling me that we need to see something that is simply evil so we can recognize how good god is? So what did god compare himself to in order to realize that he's the best of the best? If there's no other gods like him (trinities don't count) then he's neither good nor bad. He's undefined. If the comparison is between us and him then he's stupid since I don't compare myself to lower forms of life to assess my self-worth.

 

Evil is the absense of good.

And god is said to be everywhere at all times. This helps to explain the state we're in.

 

God can't be all good and have any knowledge of evil. Evil would have had to have come from the mind of god since there is not external method for god to have learned evil from. You see before the beginning was only an all good god. He could not possess knowledge of evil. It simply could not be as he was the sole source of information and he is only good. Good is the absence of evil. Evil is the absence of good. God is good. God is the absence of evil. Evil can't exist unless evil is good but now we have a paradox.

 

I think the Bible says He allowed evil to appear so as to make it apparent what goodness really looks like.

So if I were you I'd start beating the shit out of everyone I ever met so that they could know how good I truly was. After all how can they know the good you if they never experience the bad you?

 

God can't know good since he can't know evil. Without the comparison it is impossible for god to know either position. If we drop the charade and admit that doing things that god doesn't like is defined by god to be evil then you're getting somewhere because it doesn't require god to be good or evil. God could be pure evil and not doing the evil things he wants us to when then be, by comparison, evil from his point of view. We can't compare god to anything so the good/evil title can't apply. Isn't it nice how the same argument you present to damn us also damns god?

 

[snipped jesus as a perfect non-stinging mosquito which really means he was a flawed mosquito since mosquitos bite to live]

[also snipped part where mosquitos become butterflies]

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but I hope that makes sense. I think that's in essense what the Bible says.

Have you heard the story of the coyote and the scorpion? I tell you really quick. The scorpion wants to cross a river but can't swim. A coyote comes by and the scorpion asks him to take him across. The coyote tells the scorpion no since he will sting him half way across the river and he will drown. The scorpion assures him this isn't the case since if he were to sting the coyote they both would drown. After seeing the logic of the scorpion the coyote agrees to take him across. Half way over the scorpion stings the coyote. As they sink beneath the water the coyote asks the scorpion why he did such a thing since now they'll both drown. The scorpion replies "I'm a scorpion. It's my nature."

 

To expect a scorpion to not behave like a scorpion was unwise of the coyote and cost him everything. Why is it that god is expecting us to not act as humans?

 

I now am able to give God the worship He so rightly deserves!

He might deserve it if he didn't demand it and punish those who don't offer it.

 

And we have to then assume he even exists.

 

mwc

[Lycorth]

Absolutely brilliant rebuttal, mwc! Worthy of a bookmark and at least occasional reference

[mwc]

Absolutely brilliant rebuttal, mwc! Worthy of a bookmark and at least occasional reference

Keep up this kind of talk and you'll have me committing the sin of pride.

 

Thanks for the kind words.

 

mwc