Incomprehensibility Of Christian Mindsets

[Jedah]

If this argument was true in any way then each nation that has the freedom of religion would have almost the same rate of converts to christianity as everywhere else. However, they dont. Instead we have differant religions that teach mostly the same morals. It seems that morality is common sense and people just tend to try and justify it with religion rather then it being the other way around.

[Amethyst]

I think he needs professional help. Seriously.

With God and Ray Comfort on his side, who else could even be worthy enough to help him?

 

A really good therapist? Just a thought.

 

 

The problem is this: Whoever's been writing down all these holy books seemingly *does* have enough moral smarts to compile a book on cultural do's and dont's. And other people in the group have enough moral awareness to recognize that these books might be a valuable addition to their community library.

 

To me, that debunks "people are evil" right there.

 

Yeah, but not everything in the bible is moral. Some of the behaviors classified as "evil" have genetic tendencies and aren't a result of any choice. But 2,000 years ago, they didn't understand that. We know that now -- at least, a lot of people do. There are unfortunately still people with their heads in the sand, though.

 

That raises another question. A big one.

 

Does a philosophy that indoctrinates a culture in the "people are evil" mindset actually create an evil society? Or at least drive us crazy with cognitive dissonance?

 

Interesting question. There is evidence that our society has more violence than societies that aren't overwhelmingly Christian (for example, Asian cultures). And I can't help but wonder if other things in our culture are a side-effect of the Christian culture (health issues, for example, that aren't as prevalent in other societies).

 

Here in the States, religion, superstition and all sorts of weird and freaky shit flourishes like crazy. Christianity does just about anything it can do to halt or stump progress. The more widespread it is, the more a society infested with it begins to crumble. It's almost as if its main goal is to go after and tear down anything that progresses above and beyond its version of "perfection".

 

Yeah, good point. It's like when things aren't the fundie Chrisatian ideal, the meme must stop any progress in its tracks and go back to the way things were centuries ago. It's like a computer program that has to reset every so often or something. Hmmm...Matrix, anyone?

[Antlerman]

Almost all of you have cursed me, so in obedience to Jesus' command I will be asking God to keep you all safe and healthy in the next few months.

You are not asking anyone here for forgivness. You have personally not felt remorse - or any other HUMAN emotion - from within your OWN spirit. You ask our forgiveness because someone told you to!!!!!!!??????? I can sense deeply, and with great terror in my very heart that you are completely disconnected from your own spirit. "Chris" is a shell of a human, masked behind distorted and twisted theology of man. You are on a dangerous path. I have never said that to any Christian before, but I am saying it to you with all gravity.

 

You are emotionally, spiritually, and intellectually twisted and distorted as your picture in your avitar. I pity beyond all words your poor child Chris! You need serious help! Seek out a deprogramming center and ask for help! For the sake of your child Chris, get help!

[Lycorth]

Indeed, Antlerman - I noticed that, too. He's a slave to his god, and I shudder to think what he'd do to his child or wife or himself if he all of a sudden should become convinced that Jesus™ told him to do something nasty. This is why people need to get out of this cult, because it encourages a demented mindset of slavery and anti-human behavior.

[LookingGlass]

"Morality" is nothing more than a particular set of socially acceptable behaviors by which cooperation in a society is best served. There is nothing innate outside of possible a sense of needing community for the sake of individual survival. Knowedge of a God is purely a learned concept.

 

Hi, I'm not much for arguments, but I just wanted to agree with this statement, as an anthropology enthusiast. Acceptable behavior varies from culture to culture. So what is considered unacceptable in one culture may be the norm in another, therefore making the concept of "sin" open to interpretation. For example, using swear words is typically unacceptable in most christian circles in the US, and this bible verse may be used to justify it: MATTHEW 12:36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment." (37) "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." But in another culture, using works like d**n, b**ch, f*ck etc. may be perfectly acceptable in christian circles. An american missionary encounters such language in the church and is taken aback by their "obvious disrespect of God's law." In many instances, there is no way to really gage what is sinful and what is not. Since Americans tend to have no real knowledge of the rest of the world, it's easy for American xtians to create their own christian sub-culture. When I was xtian, this was a problem that I often delt with: How can xtians see everything in black and white when there are so many obvious shades of grey?

[Amethyst]

Indeed, Antlerman - I noticed that, too. He's a slave to his god, and I shudder to think what he'd do to his child or wife or himself if he all of a sudden should become convinced that Jesus told him to do something nasty. This is why people need to get out of this cult, because it encourages a demented mindset of slavery and anti-human behavior.

 

Yeah. Either he had cultlike parents while growing up, and that is where he's getting all this from, or he's currently in a cult (a more dangerous one than just run-of-the-mill Christianity), or both. Because really, he seems a lot more self-hating than most Christians I've met in real life.

 

I realize he is probably ignoring most responses, but I'm going to post a link to the Toxic Parents self help book.

 

From the B&N page:

 

Are you the child of toxic parents?

 

When you were a child...

 

• Did your parents tell you you were bad or worthless?

• Did your parents use physical pain to discipline you?

• Did you have to take care of your parents because of their problems?

• Were you often frightened of your parents?

• Did your parents do anything to you that had to be kept secret?

 

Now that you’re an adult...

 

• Do your parents still treat you as if you were a child?

• Do you have intense emotional or physical reactions after spending time with your parents?

• Do your parents control you with threats or guilt? Do they manipulate you with money?

• Do you feel that no matter what you do, it’s never good enough for your parents?

 

I will post a link here from Barnes & Noble:

 

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...553381407&itm=1

 

Emotional abuse is still abuse. The scars it leaves are just as real and damaging. You can get past it, but it will take work. Good luck.

[jrmarlin]

Indeed, Antlerman - I noticed that, too. He's a slave to his god, and I shudder to think what he'd do to his child or wife or himself if he all of a sudden should become convinced that Jesus™ told him to do something nasty. This is why people need to get out of this cult, because it encourages a demented mindset of slavery and anti-human behavior.

 

Yeah. Either he had cultlike parents while growing up, and that is where he's getting all this from, or he's currently in a cult (a more dangerous one than just run-of-the-mill Christianity), or both. Because really, he seems a lot more self-hating than most Christians I've met in real life.

Now that you mention it, he does display a very cult-like mentality, moreso than the average xian. He has this delusion of granduer almost like a deity complex which indicative of latent schizophrenia. Perhaps the best thing to do with Chris is just ignore him.

 

Once we stop feeding him with the attention he so desparately craves, perhaps he will move on and seek life elsewhere. As long as any reaction is given, he will continue to "act out his fantasy here" and talk even more often. No use beating a dead horse. You guys have been showing him every which way but up and he doesn't get it. He actually is not here to get it.

 

He is probably here because he got kicked off the christian forums.

[Lycorth]

Yeah, it's very possible he got his ass kicked out of other forums and is here for a rise, not intending to listen to a word we say. Oh well - but there is a silver lining.

 

All the useless back and forth will be read by many people, many of whom may not even register as members here. But they will read, and the seeds of doubt and truth will be implanted. Far from being turned off by the fiery exchanges, they will doubt, think for themselves, and realize that all those ex-xians are right - and people like Chris really are whacked-out cultists.

 

I wonder if Chris isn't posting because he's scourging himself in front of a crucifix for failing his Lard and Slaver...

[Fweethawt]

Yeah, good point. It's like when things aren't the fundie Chrisatian ideal, the meme must stop any progress in its tracks and go back to the way things were centuries ago. It's like a computer program that has to reset every so often or something. Hmmm...Matrix, anyone?

But, in the Matrix, once everything was reset, it was a better, brighter and more colorful world.

 

You did see the third movie, didn't you?

[Amethyst]

But, in the Matrix, once everything was reset, it was a better, brighter and more colorful world.

 

You did see the third movie, didn't you?

 

Actually, no. I saw the first & second but not the third.

[jrmarlin]

Actually the Matrix has only a green hue to it. The Real World has real color; however, it is dull because humans scorched the sky.

 

But then again, I only saw the first and second as well....however, I will say, I am not happy about the Oracle dying after the second. She is one of my favorites.

[Fweethawt]

But, in the Matrix, once everything was reset, it was a better, brighter and more colorful world.

 

You did see the third movie, didn't you?

Actually, no. I saw the first & second but not the third.

Actually the Matrix has only a green hue to it. The Real World has real color; however, it is dull because humans scorched the sky.

 

But then again, I only saw the first and second as well....however, I will say, I am not happy about the Oracle dying after the second. She is one of my favorites.

At the end of the third movie, after the big battle, there was a little girl who (according to the script) was responsible for the creation of the view of the world that she and the Oracle were sitting there talking about.

 

Throughout all three Matrix movies, if you paid attention, you could notice the green hue to everything while they were inside of the Matrix. But, when they got back to the "real world", although everything was trashed, it had vivid color.

 

Well, at the end of the third movie, the world that the little girl created within the new Matrix didn't have the green hue. It was just as vivid in color as the "real" world.

[Chris de Vidal]

(I just hit preview and quotes appear as [ quote ]. I have no idea why it does that. I hope you can still understand it.)

 

 

Sorry it's taken so long to reply. Last post and then I'm done.

 

First, text makes it difficult to transmit emotions. I do not come here thinking I am better than you or holier than thou.

 

I want to repeat: I AM NOT A GOOD PERSON. I have violated the very Laws I have been trying so hard to share with you. A thousand times over! I have not earned God's forgiveness any more than you can.

 

BUT NOW I AM A SON OF GOD! What better news to a rotten sinner like me?? Adopted into the kingdom? I cannot believe it! What joy! What priviledge! What amazing grace! What gratitude flows out of my heart!

 

 

Eponymic said:

I am certainly not in favor of criminals who shouldn't be walking free doing so, though I think you need to clarify if that's all you are talking about.

 

That indeed is what I am talking about.

 

 

Asimov said:

Chris, do you believe that omnipresence is one of his attributes?

 

If by that you mean able to see every event that has ever happened in history. If by that you mean /IN/ everything, no.

 

 

nick5 said:

Hate itself is not wrong, it's good.

 

I think you mean that righteous hatred is good, which is true. But unrighteous hatred is as murder to God.

 

 

See the problem you have is you are measuring your own goodness by your own standard. God's standard is /perfection/.

 

 

Lust certainly doesn't equal cheating your girlfriend. Besides, getting horny with your girlfriend is also lust, so there goes your whole adultery BS.

 

What you've missed is this is offensive to God. You're disobeying the spirit of His Law.

 

His standard is /perfection/. All Law breaking begins in the mind!

 

 

HanSolo said:

Not every human is born with the ability to separate between right and wrong.

 

I agree! Did you see what Capone said about himself?

 

People who you and I would consider good (ex. Ghandi) again and again do not consider themselves to be good. There has been no historical great thinkers about the human condition to believe we are basically good.

 

Just because a baby isn't born knowing how to discern between right and wrong doesn't mean he doesn't have a moral bent toward wickedness; it just hasn't expressed itself yet.

 

 

if killing is immoral, and always sinful according to God, then why did he command "his" people to do so over and over again in the OT?

 

Great question! Why did God off people and then tell people it's wrong to off people?

 

The Bible gives a simple explaination: THEY WERE MONSTERS OF INIQUITY! They drink iniquity like water.

 

Imagine an alien race of purple people that always give birth to more purple people. It is always expected that they will only give birth to purple people (without outside blood).

 

That is like our sinful nature.

 

And isn't it true that all babies grow up to break God's Ten Commandments? There is no direction people go other than into wickedness.

 

Now here's the good news: God is merciful for babies. They deserved hell because they were a /race/ of wicked people that would do nothing but sin, love it love it love it, yet it seems as though the Bible says that children (and mentally retarded adults) that have not reached the "condition of accountability" are given forgiveness. I can expound on that if you'd like.

 

So even though those children were bashed against rocks -- BECAUSE THEY ARE WICKED AT ROOT -- they will be given heaven.

 

One of the rules of debate is to represent your opponent in a way that He would agree with and then attack /that/. God says He is righteous and we are clearly not because we have broken His Laws again and again.

 

Now you can choose to say, "I reject that!" Sure, fine. But at least do it on His terms, in a way that He would agree with, or you are arguing dishonestly.

 

 

SillyGeezer10

if you will just drop the "I'm so holy, you so are not!" attitude and we will not call you a holy egomanic anymore.

 

Oh no! I am *so* not holy! I have probably broken more Ten Commandments than any of you!

 

I have been given a /foreign/ righteousness.

 

It is quite difficult to transmit emotions via a message board. I am *so* not holier than thou!

 

 

SillyGeezer10

Next time you decide to debate us, don't preach, just cut to the reason why Jesus or the bible package are the correct thing to follow, morally unobjectable, or whatever.

 

Is that clear?

 

To be honest, reading over my first post, that's what I was doing, explaining why the package is correct. To do that, one needs to address the conscience.

 

 

What is wrong with sexual excitement to the point of having intense physical desire for another human being?

 

Because it is offensive /to God/. He said no, you violate His law with your mind.

 

 

And what is wrong with adultery, provided all parties are aware and consensually agree to it?

 

Because it is offensive /to God/. The whole understanding of this is He is saying, "no," but you decide to do it anyway. It is disobedience against your creator.

 

And there are good reasons he told you no (love your neighbor as yourself), but primarily it is wrong because He said NO!

 

 

Mythra said:

Yeah? Luther also said this: (terrible Luther quote)

 

Yeah I only follow Luther as far as he followed Christ. He was a falliable man. Next.

 

 

 

pandora:

Chris--- what would you say if I told you that I was a True Christian? I spent many a night in tears over my sins. I eventually got to the point where I trusted God's grace and took refuge in it. I never got proud (about this grace) and went out and sinned willy nilly because I thought God would forgive me anyway, nor did I go out and assume that grace was enough... I volunteered more than I worked. I befriended the underdogs and the nerds in school.... I didn't kiss my boyfriend, I didn't cheat on exams, etc... all because I feared God in what I thought was a healthy way. I wanted to serve him.

 

What do you say to people such as me? Even if you don't believe me, assume I am telling the truth. What is your theory of why I am an apostate now?

 

I would love to continue exploring this offline; please contact me Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.

 

Without knowing too much of your history, I'd say you were like me, an almost-Christian. The very evidence you didn't really believe is you have taken Christ off like I did.

 

I'm not making you out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, but you couldn't have been a sheep either, or you wouldn't have taken Christ off. You were probably like me, a goat. Unaware that you were not saved, but full of confidence that you were.

 

Please contact me offlist Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv for a friendly, non-threatening chat about this.

 

 

jrmarlin said:

Because like the ----tard he is, he will use that against you. Don't give him such amo, it will only come back to haunt you.

 

No sir, I refuse to use it against him. Besides, I have been given grace not to return insult for insult but rest in the justice of God.

 

Besides even that, when I am mocked and persecuted for the sake of the gospel, I GET A REWARD IN HEAVEN! I should send him flowers ;-)

 

 

When someone is merely trying to explain truth carefully, humbly, and someone VIOLENTLY LASHES OUT, it is likely there is something supernatural going on that we cannot see. For I did not attack him yet he spit insults and curses at God?? Tell me that's normal???

 

I'm praying hard for him.

 

 

Varokhar said:

But if he's really a fundy dope and not doing it for attention, I want to know what he thinks. I want to see if he can actually feel some shame for his nonsense, or will just respond with the same old Babble verses and programming.

 

I would actually rather not be here. Attention of this kind isn't enjoyable in the least.

 

My motivations: The Lamb is worthy of those He died for! Jesus went to hell -- perhaps even for you -- and He deserves to have those He was slain for. HE IS WORTHY!

 

 

Also, I am here because I care for you.

 

I am willing to DIE for my Savior. I would be a martyr for Him. If there were someone you loved this much you would too.

 

I love you even as you spit acid at me. I am *so* concerned for where you will be when you die. Run to hell if you must, but you will do so with my hands clutched around your legs trying to stop you!

 

 

pandora said:

Chris-- you honestly think your son will commit mass murder if he doesn't become a Christian?

 

That was not what I said, now was it?

 

I was getting at we all have the seeds to do something like Hitler because we all know how hate can just boil and boil.

 

If He does not become a Christian and yet does not murder like Hitler, it is only because of God's sustaining and restraining grace FOR YOUR SAKE. God loves the world in a general sense to prevent more children from becoming Hitlers.

 

 

Asimov said:

No, because you only ask for forgiveness because Christ commands you to. I don't forgive you because you don't need forgiveness, you need a reality check.

 

My conscience would not have let me sleep that night. I obey God and He gave me a conscience, aided by the Bible.

 

I'm sorry you will not forgive me; any decent person can do that.

 

I'm glad God is greater than you, for I know He forgave me! I'm glad you're not the one in charge :-)

 

 

YOU ARE NOT A BAD PERSON

 

Oh but I am! I am!!! I sat down and studied the moral rule, the Ten Commandments, and I realized I'd broken them all a thousand times over in word and in thought!

 

And my bend was to do that from my very birth.

 

 

So either you are wrong or the Creator of the universe is wrong.

 

 

And now I am considered PERFECT, holier than thou NOT BECAUSE I'M A GOOD PERSON but because I've been GIVEN Christ's righteousness!

 

 

 

 

There seems to be much discussion about how I will treat my baby. Honestly, this is like shooting the messenger. It makes it clear to me that I am striking a nerve with the truth and gives me assurance to continue sharing the truth. I know that I am not attacking any of you, so I know it must be the truth that is troubling you!

 

 

I love Dominic *dearly.* Want to see him?

Dominic Elijah Emmanuel de Vidal

 

I want five more just like him!

 

 

Some of you probably had parents who shouted at you when you disobeyed, "YOU'RE A ROTTEN SINNER AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR DOING THAT!"

 

Let me state this very clearly: THAT IS A WRONG APPLICATION OF THE DOCTRINE OF INDWELLING SIN. Your parents will have to face God one day for how they treated you!

 

So would I, if I abused my son in this way. Knowing he's wicked at heart doesn't give me an excuse to be holier than him, as if I didn't disobey my parents!

 

(WHATEVER!! I once got so mad at mom I put my thumb on her eye and pressed hard. My hate was not satisfied with anything but blood!)

 

 

I will not be telling him how aweful he is when I get mad at him, telling him what a rotten sinner he is. That is the wrong application of the docrtrine of sin.

 

I will look for areas where he does well and praise him. I will constantly tell him how much I love him and live it out by giving him treats and gifts. I will serve him by sacrificing many hours on his behalf.

 

But when he disobeys I will remind him before I administer careful, thought-out, emotion-controlled discipline that he needs a savior just like daddy. It is when his disobedience is fresh in his eyes that he will be most aware of his moral depravity.

 

You've seen the destruction of parents who shout at their kids how rotten they are. And you've also seen the destroyed lives of children who run amuck. A godly parent drives right down the middle, neither tolerating sin nor ruling dictatorially with an iron fist but showering affection and lovingly discipling.

 

 

Fweethawt said:

He's only asking his god to keep us safe for a few months. It's not like he's asking him to draw us into his warm and loving embrace for all of eternity.

 

I'd already asked for that :-)

 

 

 

 

MWC wins the award for the best response yet. He's wrong, but it was still well-thought-out and challenged the MEAT of the message, not shooting the messenger as many of you did.

 

 

mwc said:

Make rules that are impossible to live up to and then punish your kids for not living up to them just so they can know, by comparison, how good you are and how bad they are?

 

They are God's rules for righteousness! There is no one good but God! And He will destroy all evil! Even you, if you have not either been perfect since conception or have been given a /foreign/ righteousness like me.

 

 

Yeah, sadly the whole "good parent" argument is a load of shit. Parents teach their children to stand on their own *without* the parents around.

 

Don't stretch the analogy where I didn't intend it to go. The argument was only meant to be applied in the circumstance of God's discipline, not in life improvement.

 

 

But to answer you, a good parent teaches the child to depend upon His Maker. Still dependant, but dependant upon the only thing in the universe that can sustain.

 

Anyway no analogy on earth can perfectly reflect the perfection of the Bible. To understand how God might will someone to die and then His will to love and save them might overcome the first will, go right to the Bible.

 

 

By "press it" do you mean actually think about it for a few seconds?

 

Yes, precisely. Throw away the analogy when it begins to contradict perfect scripture. I just hoped it'd be a picture you could understand why God would judge a race of people that can help but do nothing but sin.

 

Here's the good news: The True Christian is no longer slave to sin! He can begin to do righteous things!

 

 

If, on the other hand, that I was about to create mosquitos and I knew that they would become this terrible pest then I would either not make them or correct the flaw before continuing. I wouldn't create them with their flaw and then make them suffer when it was preventable.

 

Ahh you are correct, that's where the analogy fails. God did not CREATE mankind as evil, we gladly chose it! We are a race of people who love sin. Sin sin sin, we just looooooove to sin!!

 

Assume God's word is true for a moment (if it doesn't hurt to do so). Don't you love to disobey it? I used to! Don't you love pr0n and love to hate those who do wrong to you and insult them like I did?

 

 

God is not only the judge but the prosecute and injured party as well. God is a kangaroo court.

 

You can spin it that way if you'd like, sure. The Bible says He created us to enjoy Him and when we not only enjoy other things but spit at him like you are doing, we deserve hell.

 

You have not been a righteous person! When you become perfectly righteous, /then/ you will be in the right place to judge Him.

 

Just to clarify, I am not perfectly righteous either. The difference between you and me is I have a /foreign/ righteousness. So I bow down at His feet.

 

 

I doubt you'd be praising that just judge if he were to punish his own son for someone else's crime. It makes no sense and is in no way loving or just. This very action is more screwed up then simply forgiving the criminal. "Please forgive those who tresspass against us." Why does it seem that god can forgive those who sin against others, without a blood sacrifice, but not against him?

 

So many things to talk about here.

 

This is another imperfect analogy, please understand where I am coming from and don't try to stretch it where it is not supposed to go. Just try to get my point.

 

 

A tribal king heard of a revolt in his tribe and laid down the rule that whoever is caught in the act of treason will be whipped 40 times.

 

It was revealed that his own brother whom he loved was the one who would have led the revolt.

 

The tribe was concerned; would the king let his brother go and so forfeit justice?

 

On the day of punishment, the king issued the decree that he should be whipped. As his brother was being tied to thetree, the king stepped out, took of his clothes and laid his flesh next to his brother's.

 

Again and again the whip tore out chunks of flesh from the king.

 

The king's love was fully expressed, and yet justice had taken place.

 

2,000 years ago Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God came down and took my place. He took 40 lashes for me. I deserved those nails! I deserved that crown! I deserved the hell of the Father's wrath! Yet God so loved me that He would let His son be beaten with a whip, nailed to a tree, and then he visited all of the fury of hell for me upon Him. And because Jesus lived a perfect life, I'm not just forgiven, I am righteous!

 

 

 

That's all I'm going to write on this thread. If once again you try to twist my words around so that I am saying something I am not, I will assume you are not seeking the truth but surpressing the truth as Romans 1 says. If you'd like to discuss anything privately, please write me: Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv. I have to use email because it seems my PM isn't enabled.

[white_raven23]

Chris.....you have unattended business in a thread pinned at the top of the Lion's Den.

 

Can't miss it. Got your name on it.

 

Looks like you are willfully ignoring it to me.

[jrmarlin]

Chris.....you have unattended business in a thread pinned at the top of the Lion's Den.

 

Can't miss it. Got your name on it.

 

Looks like you are willfully ignoring it to me.

I was just thinking the same thing, WR.

[Lycorth]

 

What is wrong with sexual excitement to the point of having intense physical desire for another human being?

 

Because it is offensive /to God/. He said no, you violate His law with your mind.

 

That is not an answer. I asked you what is wrong with sexual desire, not what your cult teaches about it. I asked for real-world, practical examples of sexual excitement being always and irrevocably wrong and harmful, not for your brainwashed bullshit. Strike one.

 

And what is wrong with adultery, provided all parties are aware and consensually agree to it?

 

Because it is offensive /to God/. The whole understanding of this is He is saying, "no," but you decide to do it anyway. It is disobedience against your creator.

 

That is not what I asked for. Again, I asked for real-world proof of across-the-board harmfulness, and you responded with canned answers. Strike two.

 

And there are good reasons he told you no (love your neighbor as yourself), but primarily it is wrong because He said NO!

 

Again, not what I asked for - and also even more off the mark. Having sexual desire does not abrogate having love or respect for anyone, and I'd ask you to prove otherwise but of course you'd just conveniently ignore what you don't have easy answers for. You insist on responding with the "because Gawd said so" line, which you know I didn't ask for. I was a Xian and I know what your cult teaches, so if I wanted to review that, I'd have pulled out an old Xian propaganda book. I asked your your thoughts and proofs on the matter, which you consistently failed to give. Strike three - yerrrrrr out!

 

Varokhar said:

But if he's really a fundy dope and not doing it for attention, I want to know what he thinks. I want to see if he can actually feel some shame for his nonsense, or will just respond with the same old Babble verses and programming.

 

I would actually rather not be here. Attention of this kind isn't enjoyable in the least.

 

My motivations: The Lamb is worthy of those He died for! Jesus went to hell -- perhaps even for you -- and He deserves to have those He was slain for. HE IS WORTHY!

 

 

Also, I am here because I care for you.

 

I am willing to DIE for my Savior. I would be a martyr for Him. If there were someone you loved this much you would too.

 

I love you even as you spit acid at me. I am *so* concerned for where you will be when you die. Run to hell if you must, but you will do so with my hands clutched around your legs trying to stop you!

 

Like I said, the same old programming. No Babble verses this time, and not a word in a rational justification of his mentality, just a bunch of Xian programming. The demented mentality of being willing to die for a god you can't show to me - come on, man, I was a Xian once, also. That tripe resonated with me once, but no more. If you can't come up with better stuff than that, who do you expect to convert?

 

Jesus™ only stopped in Hell, according to Xian mythology. Where's the sacrifice? If Jesus™ actually gave up himself to eternal suffering, then it would be a sacrifice. He died, rose, and was good as new - that's nothing.

 

I am not running to Hell, and your arrogant insistence that I am doesn't change it. Your hands aren't clutched around my legs, and don't try to use Jedi mind tricks to make me think differently. I spent too much time learning the deepest secrets of your cult and how it tricks people into believing in it, and I am wise to those games.

 

Jesus™ does not love me. If he did, he'd eradicate Satan and there'd be nothing to tempt us with, and this "indwelling sin" of yours would be gone, also. He wouldn't institute a religion full of mind games and trickery for us to play, with eternal suffering as the price of failure. That's not love - that's cruelty. Furthermore, it's strictly mythological, and lacks anything to prove its veracity. Hence it is not necessary for us to accept. Jesus™ is a monster, and so is Yahweh/Jehoover™. Scum, one and all.

 

Chris, you failed to address my challenge. You failed to try and use your brain to explain yourself. You've only helped me to see more clearly what a monster of a god you worship, and insulted me by positing that I need him, for I am garbage otherwise. You've also helped reinforce in my mind how self-hating and filthy Xianity is, for you insist your innocent little baby is wicked at heart and that you are, too. No self-respecting person could possibly want that. No apology, no remorse, no reason or proof for any of it, just more demented programmed responses and a mountain of evidence that leaving your joke of a religion was the best thing I could have ever done.

 

You failed.

[Antlerman]

pandora:

Chris--- what would you say if I told you that I was a True Christian? I spent many a night in tears over my sins. I eventually got to the point where I trusted God's grace and took refuge in it. I never got proud (about this grace) and went out and sinned willy nilly because I thought God would forgive me anyway, nor did I go out and assume that grace was enough... I volunteered more than I worked. I befriended the underdogs and the nerds in school.... I didn't kiss my boyfriend, I didn't cheat on exams, etc... all because I feared God in what I thought was a healthy way. I wanted to serve him.

 

What do you say to people such as me? Even if you don't believe me, assume I am telling the truth. What is your theory of why I am an apostate now?

 

I would love to continue exploring this offline; please contact me Pathetic (AT) Waste (DOT) SOB.

 

Without knowing too much of your history, I'd say you were like me, an almost-Christian. The very evidence you didn't really believe is you have taken Christ off like I did.

 

I'm not making you out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, but you couldn't have been a sheep either, or you wouldn't have taken Christ off. You were probably like me, a goat. Unaware that you were not saved, but full of confidence that you were.

 

Please contact me offlist Pathetic (AT) Waste (DOT) SOB for a friendly, non-threatening chat about this.

 

Chris is this why you're here, to try to prosetlize? I belive that totally against the rules of this web site. Listing your name as a contact offline to help "save" one of our most revered members Pandora (good luck on that one, BTW ). So how's about respecting our policies? Or are you above that?

 

No, because you only ask for forgiveness because Christ commands you to. I don't forgive you because you don't need forgiveness, you need a reality check.

 

My conscience would not have let me sleep that night. I obey God and He gave me a conscience, aided by the Bible.

 

I'm sorry you will not forgive me; any decent person can do that.

 

I'm glad God is greater than you, for I know He forgave me! I'm glad you're not the one in charge :-)

 

Oh, but we are! You have not felt personal remorse BECAUSE YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT US. You yourself have said, that your motives for asking forgiveness was because your Abusive Sky Daddy (ASD) told you to do so. Chris, that is not personal remorse. Your actions and your words betray you a phoney bologne sales twrip trying to tell himself he's doing ASD's will, and you will get many little tin crowns with rhinestones in them when ASD rewards you for you love for him. IT'S ABOUT YOU CHRIS. IT'S ABOUT YOU CHRIS. IT'S ABOUT YOU CHRIS --- NOT US.

 

I do have the power of forgiveness over you for offenses done towards me. You have not asked me sincerly. You shall not receive forgiveness. You are not forgiven.

 

 

There seems to be much discussion about how I will treat my baby. Honestly, this is like shooting the messenger.

You can respond to these observations and genunic concerns in the following post: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=152520

 

They are God's rules for righteousness! There is no one good but God! And He will destroy all evil! Even you, if you have not either been perfect since conception or have been given a /foreign/ righteousness like me.

WOW!!!! "There is no God but one God" Translate to Arabic: Alahu Akbar!! Press the trigger, explode the chest bomb, and kill all the sinners against God. Destroy Evil!!! Nice Chris!..

 

Remember ASD = Abusive Sky Daddy. Is there a reason you moved into a relationship with such an abusive asshole tribal god? Remind you of any parent figures in you life, perhaps?

 

That's all I'm going to write on this thread. If once again you try to twist my words around so that I am saying something I am not, I will assume you are not seeking the truth but surpressing the truth as Romans 1 says. If you'd like to discuss anything privately, please write me: Human (AT) Waste (DOT) sob. I have to use email because it seems my PM isn't enabled.

Yes assume all you want if it makes you sleep happier. I can infinitley more easily say you are not seeking truth by the fact that you have two covers on your bible. It's a closed book, for closed minds. Congrads.

 

BTW Chris, when it comes to understanding Biblical teachings, theology, blah, blah, blah, most of us on this web site are around 600,000 light years beyond your comprehension on these things. We are so, because we did not close our minds with the teachers in Church. My favorite verse in seminary was the I know more than all my teachers. These peons who teach you your doctrines, are amazingly feable in reason and pathetically weak in spirit, albeight, mighty in politics!

 

I could be much, much harder on you but I'm feeling particularly kind at this moment for some reason, hmmm I'm being lazy. You are so transparetly afraid of life in how you have wrapped the clothing of a fools theology around you. You are naked in my eyes and are a fool with your life.

 

Do yourself a favor Chris, toss your books from church into bonfire, then toss that bible in there, go for a long walk with no thoughts but your own for a few years, the come back and share with us how much more aware you have become of the beauty of the world, than the ugliness you're heaping onto it because of a bunch of religious sales people who knew nothing of the genuine compassion of the human heart. Then you will know us. Then and only then, you will genuinely care about us.

[Taphophilia]

 

That was not what I said, now was it?

 

I was getting at we all have the seeds to do something like Hitler because we all know how hate can just boil and boil.

 

If He does not become a Christian and yet does not murder like Hitler, it is only because of God's sustaining and restraining grace FOR YOUR SAKE. God loves the world in a general sense to prevent more children from becoming Hitlers.

 

There seems to be much discussion about how I will treat my baby. Honestly, this is like shooting the messenger. It makes it clear to me that I am striking a nerve with the truth and gives me assurance to continue sharing the truth. I know that I am not attacking any of you, so I know it must be the truth that is troubling you!

 

 

I love Dominic *dearly.* Want to see him?

Dominic Elijah Emmanuel de Vidal

 

 

 

Andrea Yates believed that she was keeping her children away from Satan. How is believing that your child is wicked and comparing a tiny baby to a sociopath any different from what Andrea Yates believed about her children? What you say about your child being wicked is not a rational statement. It reeks of delusion.

 

If you came here and argued for Christianity and had a somewhat intellegent arguement, I could respect that. However, as I have told you time and time again, you use other peoples words and not your own. If you insist on parroting someone, could you at least pick someone half way intellegent? I respect differing views and I tried to read the links you gave, but what was said was too stupid.

 

Do you parrot others because your self esteem is so low that you are afraid that if someone attacks your thoughts you will be crushed and angry?

 

Taph

[Open_Minded]

There seems to be much discussion about how I will treat my baby. Honestly, this is like shooting the messenger. It makes it clear to me that I am striking a nerve with the truth and gives me assurance to continue sharing the truth. I know that I am not attacking any of you, so I know it must be the truth that is troubling you!

 

I love Dominic *dearly.* Want to see him?

Dominic Elijah Emmanuel de Vidal

 

Andrea Yates believed that she was keeping her children away from Satan. How is believing that your child is wicked and comparing a tiny baby to a sociopath any different from what Andrea Yates believed about her children? What you say about your child being wicked is not a rational statement. It reeks of delusion.

 

If you came here and argued for Christianity and had a somewhat intellegent arguement, I could respect that. However, as I have told you time and time again, you use other peoples words and not your own. If you insist on parroting someone, could you at least pick someone half way intellegent? I respect differing views and I tried to read the links you gave, but what was said was too stupid.

 

Do you parrot others because your self esteem is so low that you are afraid that if someone attacks your thoughts you will be crushed and angry?

 

Taph

 

Did you catch the following Taph?

 

We had a visitor. Chris come on out. We don't doubt that you love Dominic. We fear that your childhood will catch up with you and you will end up doing things that you never thought you could do.

 

Get ahold of the mods ... ask that the Written on Our Hearts thread be moved to a safe location. Let's set up some parameters in which you feel that you can talk about these things without being attacked.

 

Believe it, or not, Chris ... we are being tough on you because we are concerned for you and for Dominic. There are people here who have endured abuse - you're not going to write things that others won't be able to comprehend, or empathize with.

 

You have it in YOUR HEART to change Chris - BECAUSE you love Dominic. Do this for the son you love Chris.

[Lycorth]

Chris, as much as I detest your religion and am displeased with your lack of proper response to my posts, Open_Minded deserves an answer. Talk to her in provate if you must, but do talk to her. Everything she says is the absolute truth, and your son is reason enough for you to dialogue with her. Ignore me if you will, but don't ignore Open_Minded.

[jrmarlin]

Chris, as much as I detest your religion and am displeased with your lack of proper response to my posts, Open_Minded deserves an answer. Talk to her in provate if you must, but do talk to her. Everything she says is the absolute truth, and your son is reason enough for you to dialogue with her. Ignore me if you will, but don't ignore Open_Minded.

Chris is not going to reply V. Not to O_M or anyone else for that matter. It is the xian way to avoid and flee from real discussions regarding their moronic faith. It only goes to prove as I have suspected all along which is they don't really have faith to begin with. It must be so sad to be in such a black hole.

[mwc]

(I just hit preview and quotes appear as [ quote ]. I have no idea why it does that. I hope you can still understand it.)

You've used too many quotes in your message. Highlight the quotes with a color (like I did with your words in orange) when this happens.

 

I'm only going to reply to things directed towards myself.

 

 

They are God's rules for righteousness! There is no one good but God! And He will destroy all evil! Even you, if you have not either been perfect since conception or have been given a /foreign/ righteousness like me.

Who states that there's no one good but god? The bible. If we trust it then god himself is telling us that there's no one good but him. Nice, but I'd like a second opinion. Divine right has been the hallmark for all tyrants to seize control over their victims and we've worked our way up to the ultimate tyrant. God reveals himself to be other than good. He admits that knowing good and evil is just like him right there in Genesis. We became like god once we knew good and evil. Barring the supernatural powers and immortality we are just like god. Is the mind of god corrupt? Is his reason impared by evil? If not, then neither are ours. Evil, or the knowledge of evil, is not something that twists the mind since there is one mind that you will claim is not affected. If we could not handle evil then it should not have been a choice. It serves no purpose. Besides, as I believe I pointed out already, if god is only good then evil simply could not have existed to begin with and the whole story of the fall of satan and mankind is impossible.

 

Don't stretch the analogy where I didn't intend it to go. The argument was only meant to be applied in the circumstance of God's discipline, not in life improvement.

I realize that no analogy is going to work to describe the complexity of the bible god. Since this god is a logical impossibility you can only go so far with any discussion using any analogy. Still, it needs to be said that these analogies are convenient if you get to define what the boundries are after the fact. I've read the bible plenty and many parables are used to describe things as well. Even the perfect son of a perfect god could not come up with a way to communicate things to us in a perfect way. This should have been a simple matter but it apparently is not. Sadly the parables themselves only "go so far" and begin to contradict the essence of other parables. Many try to show god as a loving father. I simply revealed what the purpose of parents are. If we are to redefine these words to fit what the bible, or god, wants to say then this should have been explained by god...it was not.

 

But to answer you, a good parent teaches the child to depend upon His Maker. Still dependant, but dependant upon the only thing in the universe that can sustain.

This is a lie and you know it. You're trying to alter the context so that it fits your argument. This is not the purpose of a parent. The purpose of a parent is to raise an independant child that can, once the parent is dead, take care of himself(/herself) and possibly others in their family. They should also be taught how to be responsible members of society. Weaning the child is the ongoing process. However, this is not to say that the child should be cut-off or abandoned at some point prior to the parents death but it does mean that the power that is asserted diminishes until it is basically non-existant. I now defer to my parents because I respect their opinion and not because of any potential punishment as was the case when I was still growing and learning. I don't always do what they recommend and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. Things would never advance if we never tried something that our parents wouldn't. It's not a lack of respect but a different perspective. This is true with god. He might know everything but according to you his standard is perfection. God seems unable to see things from our perspective. Even as a human he was supposedly perfect and since no human is perfect his experience, technically perfect as it might have been, was flawed since he failed to be a true human and his perspective is not one of a true human. Otherwise he'd truly understand why we are the way we are and not simply how he wants us to be. Tempering his role as god/parent with experience is the sign of maturity that god sorely lacks. My parents did things as they grew. They used this knowledge to guide me. They used this knowledge to guide them in their dealings with me. God seemingly does not possess this ability and his perfection is his undoing since it prevents him from relating to us and not the other way around.

 

Anyway no analogy on earth can perfectly reflect the perfection of the Bible. To understand how God might will someone to die and then His will to love and save them might overcome the first will, go right to the Bible.

Been there. Believed that. Pulled my head out. I feel a lot better now (although my neck is still a bit sore).

 

Thanks for not answering nor refering me to anything useful. You're about as helpful here as those spots on TV that tell people to go to their local library for information about whatever they're talking about at the time. I'll just go read the whole bible I guess.

 

Yes, precisely. Throw away the analogy when it begins to contradict perfect scripture. I just hoped it'd be a picture you could understand why God would judge a race of people that can help but do nothing but sin.

I'll do just this. When I finally locate perfect scripture then I will defer to it. Until then I will use the provided analogies to highlight the amazingly gaping huge flaws in the holy bible.

 

You see just because your analogy is designed to support your view doesn't mean that it's off limits to me to use as well. If that's the condition you should state this before you start. I understand no analogy is perfect but to state that once it bumps heads with your precious book that the book wins and we all have to play by those rules is a little silly all things considered. How about I come up with some analogy and once it stops showing how evil and rediculous your book is that I proclaim that the exercise is done? Also, we're not simply one race of people (in case you haven't noticed) so perhaps that's why I didn't get your point?

 

Here's the good news: The True Christian is no longer slave to sin! He can begin to do righteous things!

And our world has become so much better as a result. Guess there's no True Christians around.

 

Ahh you are correct, that's where the analogy fails. God did not CREATE mankind as evil, we gladly chose it! We are a race of people who love sin. Sin sin sin, we just looooooove to sin!!

Define this a little better. Sin is such a generic word it could mean anything at all especially how you're using it.

 

I noticed that you keep refering to the 10 commandments. I'd like to know which of the three sets of ten you keep refering to so that we can be on the same page. If the bible is to be believed the first set was destroyed so the second set is the correct ones to use. I know that they're identical but it would be nice for you to read Exodus and point them out for my sake in this discussion.

 

Assume God's word is true for a moment (if it doesn't hurt to do so). Don't you love to disobey it? I used to! Don't you love pr0n and love to hate those who do wrong to you and insult them like I did?

Actually most of my life was spent believing that the bible was the word of god and was true so don't condescend to me about doing so. I know the mindset very well.

 

To answer your question though, no, I did not like to disobey it. I didn't get off being some rebel. I punished myself mentally for not living up to this impossible standard and prayed many, many, many times a day just for that very reason. Having Tourette's Syndrome and getting wild thoughts, and knowing that those very thoughts, left unforgiven were going to damn me at any given moment (since I could die or jesus could return at any moment) was a terrible burden.

 

Do I love porn? I don't know if I'd describe it as love but I enjoy watching it. Hell, I even subscribe to it on satellite. So what? That, in and of itself, is not a crime nor a sin (it might be a sin if you could somehow determine if I were truly lusting and therefore comitting adultry but these things don't matter to me anymore). However, I don't enjoy lying or cheating or any of those things. Have I done these things and will I do them again? I'd say that's very likely but they eat me alive and take any actual toll on my health.

 

Love to disobey? That's a loaded question as it's not disobedience as the rules are generic since they did not begin nor end with the bible. However, when I feel I've done someone wrong, especially someone I care about, I hate it with a passion and instead of making things right with some imaginary, unharmed, third party I look for ways to make it up to those I wronged. So please don't project your shortcomings onto me. By your definition of sin I have sinned and will sin again. It's inevitable. Do I love it? What's there to love or not love? By the same definition sinning is just a way of life like breathing and since I don't think about breathing why would I think about sinning much less love it? It's only when I have troubles breathing that it becomes an issue so I guess I'll treat sin the same way. When I have trouble sinning I'll deal with it then.

 

You can spin it that way if you'd like, sure. The Bible says He created us to enjoy Him and when we not only enjoy other things but spit at him like you are doing, we deserve hell.

Love me or suffer! Sadly you're running out of things to say since you've turned to the final refuge of the true believer and that is the threat of hell if I don't take you at your word (which is simply the word of someone who is long dead). My upbringing was in a church that had rather large amounts of fire and brimstone so your words aren't going to surprise or convince me.

 

You have not been a righteous person! When you become perfectly righteous, /then/ you will be in the right place to judge Him.

 

Just to clarify, I am not perfectly righteous either. The difference between you and me is I have a /foreign/ righteousness. So I bow down at His feet.

Thank you for including yourself in your judgement so that I can see how truly humble you are.

 

You did get it right though. The difference between you and me is that you do have foreign righteousness and I do not. You are trying to get from outside what it is that you need inside. You are looking outward because you see nothing when you look inward. You are devoid of introspection. I truly feel for you and all like you. This is not pity. It is a simple observation. Many have been where you are. You look for peace from some outside force. You look for love from some outside force. You look for morals from some outside force. You look for everything you wish you had from some outside force. You will never find it. The belief that you have found it is what is sustaining you. It's like seeing images in the clouds. It's an illusion. Maybe you can sustain it until you die and maybe you can't. Be prepared for the day that your world collapses and you're left with an empty shell and no way to put your life back together. Do yourself a favor and take just the tiniest amount of that love you claim you have for god and invest it back into yourself. Stop depending on god to make you into a real person and learn how to do it yourself. You, and others, are purposely in a state of arrested development and if you don't develop these skills you will never find that thing you are looking for. You will always consider yourself a bad person and that outside help you think you've discovered will always be beyond your reach. I don't care if you're xian or not but you need to stop thinking that everything that is bad is within and everything that is good is "out there" and you're the one from letting it into your life. It's inside you and you're the one preventing it from getting out. This can only lead to comtempt for you and others. I've seen it. I've lived it. I've escaped it. I've also denied that this was even the case and I did for more years than I care to think about. Inner peace sounds cliche but it something that can, and will, change your life and your perspective. You will then see that all people aren't bad and the world isn't such a bad place after all. It's not perfect but nothing (and I mean nothing) is.

 

See? I can evangelize too.

 

[most of the story of the tribale king snipped]

Again and again the whip tore out chunks of flesh from the king.

 

The king's love was fully expressed, and yet justice had taken place.

 

2,000 years ago Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God came down and took my place. He took 40 lashes for me. I deserved those nails! I deserved that crown! I deserved the hell of the Father's wrath! Yet God so loved me that He would let His son be beaten with a whip, nailed to a tree, and then he visited all of the fury of hell for me upon Him. And because Jesus lived a perfect life, I'm not just forgiven, I am righteous!

And to now say something that will make your analogy not quite right and therefore your point valid and my point invalid as your analogy wasn't meant to be taken certain places.

 

So that tribal king, after taking that beating for his brother and showing his love, then told his brother that if he ever did anything, anything at all, wrong again that he would get not only the beating but many beatings over his lifetime until he died even though the king only suffered for a short time?

 

The punishment of god is nothing compared to what I've been told I'll get and so his sacrifice was, at best, a mockery. He has to endure a fraction of what any one of us will have to endure and claims it is equal? I think not. Perfect justice? Not even close and that's with my evil sin-filled mind doing the reasoning. I'll make a deal with god:

 

God. If I have failed you in any way I am willing to go through exactly what jesus went through. I will be beaten for a few hours. I will hang on a cross for a few more. I will die. I will go into the earth for about a day and a half. All this I will do for you. In exchange I will to be resurrected. I will to come to heaven. I will to sit at your right hand and judge all others. I will to be immortal and claim equal status and power with you. I will then be worshipped and adored by all creatures for all time.

 

Will I get this request? If this story is real then jesus endured less and received more than any person will ever get. These are not equal and yet god has supposedly proclaimed them as such. God apparently rules through nepatism. Contemptable in human dictatorships but admirable and desirable when god plays the same game.

 

That's all I'm going to write on this thread. If once again you try to twist my words around so that I am saying something I am not, I will assume you are not seeking the truth but surpressing the truth as Romans 1 says.

I'm going to believe that this comment was not directed towards me. It better not had been. Your faux humility may let you sleep at night but you're not fooling anyone but yourself. If you actually think that a god, as you believe exists, would fall for it as well...then you apparently don't know him as well as you think you do or he's one stupid SOB.

 

As for invoking Romans in order to make your escape, well, trust me that you don't need to do that. Just leave. You wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last. I'll leave you with some little known bible quotes: "I'm a dick - Paul." "Hey, I'm a dick too. - God." "Ahhh...I'm just the shape of a dick that no one cares about. - Holy Spirit." "Mmmm...dicks. - Jesus." "Mmmm...jesus - Dicks." Quoting the bible is fun!

 

mwc

[Taphophilia]

 

Did you catch the following Taph?

 

We had a visitor. Chris come on out. We don't doubt that you love Dominic. We fear that your childhood will catch up with you and you will end up doing things that you never thought you could do.

 

Get ahold of the mods ... ask that the Written on Our Hearts thread be moved to a safe location. Let's set up some parameters in which you feel that you can talk about these things without being attacked.

 

Believe it, or not, Chris ... we are being tough on you because we are concerned for you and for Dominic. There are people here who have endured abuse - you're not going to write things that others won't be able to comprehend, or empathize with.

 

You have it in YOUR HEART to change Chris - BECAUSE you love Dominic. Do this for the son you love Chris.

 

Thanks OM,

 

Maybe he'll respond to you, I hope so.

 

Chris,

 

True spirituality is not on the outside. It's on the inside. It's not in the Bible. It's not in a religion. It's not the words of other people. It's not what others tell you to believe. Spirituality is a human experience and it's a personal journey and a quest for our own personal truth.

 

Until you can take the blinders off and attempt to figure out what your own journey is, than you will never be at peace with yourself. The inner struggles you go through are not a fight between good and evil as your religion tells you they are. Your religion takes the humaness out of humanity and ignores real evils while creating and perpetuating imaginary evils.

 

I would catagorize believing that your beautiful wonderful baby as being wicked and comparing him to Hitler is creating an imaginary evil.

 

Taph

[Fweethawt]

I will look for areas where he does well and praise him. I will constantly tell him how much I love him and live it out by giving him treats and gifts.

To do this "constantly" is to invite a whole other breed of "monster" that you're trying to avoid.

 

If you "constantly" tell him how much you love him, and "constantly" praise him by giving him "treats" and "gifts" every time that he does something good, you're going to have a spoiled brat on your hands. And sometime, those are worse than potential mass-murderers.

 

Occasional praising, occasional treats and gifts are fine. But sometimes, it is also good to IGNORE when they do good stuff and just let it fly.

 

Why do I say this?

 

Because by NOT praising them (all the time) when they do good, doing the good stuff becomes their nature even though no reward is involved. They learn that they don't have to be rewarded for doing good stuff.

 

Sounds strange, doesn't it?

 

Well - it works.

 

You won't find that lesson in the Bible.

[jrmarlin]

They learn that they don't have to be rewarded for doing good stuff.

Actually when you do a good deed looking for a pay-off for yourself, it negates the deed in the first place. Therefore, it is never good to do anything just for what's in it for you. i.e. giving to charities, doing work for homeless shelters, etc.

 

It's amazing how many xians do things for others because of the "rush" and "good deeds they think others will give them" instead of the real reason to do such things in the first place. It's all about keeping up this facade that they actually care...which they don't but they like everyone to think they do!