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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
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    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • pantheory
      Sorry Sir, I have made no assertions, but if you think so I apologize since it was not my intent.  I am explaining my beliefs when asked about their detail, but I will not argue about them since they are my beliefs only. I have said "according to the Bible" and my understandings and beliefs of it. Without the Bible there could be no explanations of religion or a religious path to follow. But the Bible can be misunderstood, mistranslated, misinterpreted, mistakes or man-made modifications or insertions in its parts. God did not have to put his blessing on every word of mouth telling, every penned hand copy of it, and for every single translation for every different language. My purpose is simply to explain my beliefs when asked, not to convert you to any different belief. If my beliefs don't make sense to you, you have the right to judge my beliefs by your own opinions and conversations of them and continue with your own beliefs, since everyone has a right to their own beliefs IMHO as long as they don't harm others. And I believe that any of man's opinions or beliefs are not infallible including their religious or non-religious beliefs.
    • Weezer
      Some good points.  It looks like shame has taken on a more intense meaning in our culture than it had way back when.
    • moxieflux66
      Shame as a means toward personal growth and rethinking an uncomfortable subject.    https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/shame-better-person-160014144.html?    
    • Casualfanboy16
      Honestly am wondering the same thing...   
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      Again, the bible is not being accepted into evidence.  You cannot claim that the bible is filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, and then expect to use it as an authoritative source of reliable information.  This leaves every assertion you have made above completely unfounded.  Please support these assertions with something beyond more assertions and something more reliable than the bible, which cannot be taken literally, by your own admission.    Please also explain how god is omnipresent (present everywhere at all times) if hell exists outside of his presence.   And, please, explain as well how god can be omnibenevolent (all loving at all times) if his love does not extend to everyone, including those who disobey him.  How can omnibenevolence be conditional, contingent upon obedience?  Perhaps you misunderstand the prefix omni?    
    • pantheory
      "1. If hell exists, god cannot be omnibenevolent.  2. If hell exists, it invalidates god's omnipresence.   According to the Bible Hell exists. God is not omnibenevolent to those who disobey him. He created Hell for Lucifer, for the disobedient angels, and for all who do not follow his word. I don't believe God is omnipresent in Hell but since he created it, he has power over it, and maybe if he wished, he could destroy it or have it managed differently, The Bible doesn't talk of this.
    • pantheory
      Good question. According to the Bible God created hell as a place to ban Lucifer and his follower angels. The fire and torment part of hell is little discussed in the Bible, primarily Revelation. But Lucifer was free to tempt Eve and is accordingly free to temp sinners in the world so how is hell managed? There is much unanswered in the Bible, that's why all of God's ways and purposes are unknown, and sometimes only faith must be involved in God's purposes when all the answers are not there.
    • moxieflux66
      Ok, that's it for me. Next time I go for a hike in the woods I'm taking my electric flyswatter. 😉
    • moxieflux66
      I can't tell you how relieved I am to finally find an expert in this area! It's been plaguing me for years. So please keep going! I have many more questions...   Such as, does it take individual spraying of feathers or can it be done industrial style, like in a paint shop? Seems to me if this has to be done individually it might take the whole of the CIA to do that every day.....And what happens if it's raining too? Or the ducks have to fly through a hurricane?  Then there's this....      
    • older
      http://jesusbuds.com/     The CIA sprays the feathers with WD40 each morning.     No. Those are owned by Bill Gates and are used to deliver the microchips to the vaccine manufacturers.
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    • Ushiromiya_Battler

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      Here because I want to see what more is out there. 
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      Happy New Year to my fellow heathens!!! Hope everyone has a fantastic new year and 2024 goes well for all people here! My New Year's resolution is to get a better sleep schedule (I'm not failing shhhhh! 🤫)
       
      Here's to a great 2024!! 🥳🍻🎊🎉
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