Guest SerenityNow Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So humans have to obey these things, but not God. If God "is love" he surely is not defined by above scripture. Let's break it down some, shall we? 1)It's okay for "God" to be self-seeking and proud; Punish people to hell for unbelief and therefore not having people worship him. 2)It's okay for God to boast; See God boast of himself in Job. 3)It's okay for God to not only cause evil but LAUGH at the "evil" ones from his heavenly throne. - Sounds to me like he not only rejoices evil but delight's in it. Job shows that he even allows it. 4)God wants us to "trust" him even though he sends "lying and deceitful spirits" and will "send a great delusion so that they will be deceived". 5) Always protects but yet made the devil, who is like a lion ready to devour us? Where is his protection for believing children who are raped, murdered and beaten? I suppose the TYPICAL response will be that always doesn't really mean always. 6) Always perserveres??? Well, I suppose because a god CANNOT die, no wonder Jesus made it., etc. In this case, "always" means always because in the end god wins. According to the bible that is. 7) Always hopes? Does an omniscient deity hope? I wouldn't think so. And this is a deity that wants our worship and is worthy of our praise?!? I'm sure that others can break it down even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 God - not self seeking? Rev. 4: Day and night they never stop saying: Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come. Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. And God sits on his throne and says "Oh Yes. give me more. No - don't stop. keep going. Tell me how wonderful I am one more time. C'mon, give it up. Just another couple choruses. Oh yes. Oh yes.. I like it.. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Yeah, you know, I was feeling puny cause I thought I ran off college kid and aaryn by being rude to em. Then, I decided to be nice and just discuss without insulting. And I found out they disappear at the same rate. I just don't think christians like to examine their faith too closely. The picture gets a little grainy under the light. Now, if we knew nothing about the bible, they'd still be here telling us how wonderful it is, and how Jesus will change everything for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 can you guys remember how you would have answered this when you were christians? I keep finding that I'm loosing my grip on my memory of what I used to say if anyone (including me myself) quibbled or questioned a passage like this in the way you have done ... I really want to hold onto remembering how I used to rationalise it so I can still understand where other people are at ... I guess most of the time I would block out the inconsistencies. The only one I can remember having an answer for is the 'self seeking one' - even though it seems to be the one you find the most unlikely ! ... Isn't the non self seeking bit explained by - god doesn't 'need' to be worshipped - it's us that 'need' to worship? Aside from the God is love - does this sound like god bit, I'd be interested to know if you think this passsage is a good description of how to be loving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 can you guys remember how you would have answered this when you were christians? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Of course I remember. It would have been answered, not with thinking or reasoning, but with scripture. Like thankful says. Who are we to question God? His ways are not our ways. He is so far above our understanding. Will the created creature question the creator? Who can fathom the mind of God? and on, and on, and on. Like the guy up in the corner of the ex-c page. blah, blah, blah. Oh, and I believe that guy is Marcion (early gnostic father, later branded a heretic) , by the way. (I'm serious - I've seen the same guy on web pages about Marcion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 The trouble I am having with remembering is that I didn't used to think - 'lame answer' - to those kind of comments, I used to think 'ok - now I see', I guess maybe that's what you mean when thankful, when you say you used to 'believe' it. I just can't get a handle on HOW I ever thought the answers were adequate, but I wish I did understand this, because until I do, I don't think I can truly understand where anyone else is coming from. I just wish I could still trace my way back clearly to when I believed the answers, but it seems lost to me already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 I just wish I could still trace my way back clearly to when I believed the answers, but it seems lost to me already. Perhaps this lack of recollection has something to do with the fact that you have been born again, again Or, to be more clear, now you are able to think for yourself, not through a filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Perhaps this lack of recollection has something to do with the fact that you have been born again, again Or, to be more clear, now you are able to think for yourself, not through a filter. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would like to think that either of these are true ... but I have just had it pointed out to me that these days I can't remember the word for this or that (although I generally know what the word I'm looking for begins with) or where I've put the car keys ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres-------------------- So humans have to obey these things, but not God. If God "is love" he surely is not defined by above scripture. Let's break it down some, shall we? 1)It's okay for "God" to be self-seeking and proud; Punish people to hell for unbelief and therefore not having people worship him. ---------------------------- 5) Always protects but yet made the devil, who is like a lion ready to devour us? Where is his protection for believing children who are raped, murdered and beaten? I suppose the TYPICAL response will be that always doesn't really mean always. ------------------------ And this is a deity that wants our worship and is worthy of our praise?!? I'm sure that others can break it down even further. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thankful... perhaps you will consider this perspective for what it's worth... God's power is in heaven.... the kingdom of God, and Jesus says the kingdom of God is within you... hence, a part deep down in each of us ALL is a characteristic of love, patient, kind, not envious, not boastful, not proud, not rude, not selfish, not easily angered, not recording anyone's wrongs, rejoices in truth instead of delights in evil, always protects, always trusts these ways, always hopes... looking for the good to come, and always perseveres... Perhaps, people... even those who claim to to be Christians... sometimes turn a deaf ear or blind eye to this aspect of what we all know to be truth. As this aspect manifests as an expression from out of us... (as parts of this in each of us are seeking this part in others)... and when it appears it is worthy of worship. It is the expression of this characteristic, that God truly sits in his throne... us. Man being made of the spirit of God and of the dust (the carnal nature), the devil is to devour the dust all the days of his life.... till nothing is left but the actualized part. Hence, many say the war between heaven and hell is within us.... and you're right... the back of the book says heaven will win. Just a thought... and if read this far will produce either or ....yet will contribute diversity of thought... a punching bag... or some passtime entertainment... which is all fine with me... it is what makes life interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Just curious, Amanda - do you see the bible as an allegory, ( a visible symbol representing an abstract idea) and basically a story - or do you see the bible as literal truth, everything in the bible actually happened - with two (or more) levels of meaning? ie: do you think jesus was a literal man, or a spiritual concept of sorts? It's ok. You can answer.. I won't chomp ya. I've turned over a new leaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Nevermind, Amanda. You don't have to answer. I see you are involved in a formal debate with Poonis in the debates section. And judging by his opening statement, looks like you'll have your hands full there for awhile. m. So, in an attempt to get this thread back on track, biblegod (if he were real) would be more immoral than any human being on earth. I mean, on another thread Soil is talking about the atrocities in Rwanda, (and they truly are atrocities) without ever internalizing the fact that his god has now sent all of those poor innocent people who were slaughtered to eternal torment in hell fire. (unless of course they are "born again", which I doubt) What's worse? Getting hacked up with a machete or screaming for eternity in fire? So, you tell me, what's so moral about biblegod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I would say humans, but then humans made Christ in the image they wanted. Christ is the extreme personifiction of what some humans want god to be like. Yet there are many more humans who are much more loving & caring than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Just curious, Amanda - do you see the bible as an allegory, ( a visible symbol representing an abstract idea) and basically a story - or do you see the bible as literal truth, everything in the bible actually happened - with two (or more) levels of meaning? ie: do you think jesus was a literal man, or a spiritual concept of sorts? It's ok. You can answer.. I won't chomp ya. I've turned over a new leaf. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ahhhhh Mythra... I love your character! You won't change... as you know you're pretty good just the way you are... and you are!!! I actually enjoy you a lot and find you to be ONE of the more interesting people here. I still say they should make a sitcom out of this site... but no one ever listens to me. You're not tricking me.. and I'll answer any way. I believe that Jesus was a real person, which comprised of such a strong spiritual component that it superceded and drove his physical manifestation. Many of us, at best, have our physical being control our spiritual awakenings. Once I read where someone defined the difference between talented and genius. Talented is when one has mastered their art, and genius is when their art has mastered them. The "book" is for those who are desiring to have some talent in the spiritual (NOT RELIGOUS) arena, Jesus demonstrated beyond a genius' approach.... to its exact manifestation (although he says we will do greater things)... in my opinion. My belief is that much of what is written in modern translations are not accurate. Yes, there are many hidden meanings (abstract ideas perhaps) that are not so secretive, yet take time and a critical mind... and as most wonderful things... they are much more interesting in the journey to the destination... where inner transformation takes place in the process of understanding. Go ahead Mythra, take your shot... I'm expecting it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I have a question...do you believe the noah's ark flood REALLY happened and that it was somehow ordained by god? If so, how do you explain the mass genocide of kittens by drowning in light of a "loving" god? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Zoe Grace, I believe it happened at this point in my life... although I am not sure and am open to new insights of this interpretation. It seems that it happened to me, although my teacher that I have immense respect commented to me it did not... is just a metaphor. He soon passed away so that is one understanding I will not have his insight for more illuminating power. This was a common site to me, from this forum, of the unjustification of God's actions. Initially I commented that one's indignation to this story is determanated by the presupposition that the translation from which it was taken is accurate, and that the afterlife from the death they suffered is worse than the life here. I do maintain that life is of utmost importance and to strive to preserve it in an honorable manner. Having said that, we are referring to a time of long ago that was considered to be less than completely civilized. Reading it says that the sons of the self exhalted, judges and kings, were taking anyone and any thing to satisfy their sexual lust, producing children. This perpetual dishonor of life, possibly including beastiality, producing a sociopathic generation brought much sorrow. Noah and his family, being less than perfect, still found grace... and so were spared. This process of eradication of the mentally depraved saddened God so much that he swore he would never resort to this again... and I think there is more of a proactive approach now instead of corrective. This transfromation is probably a learning aspect meant for us, not him, and to include our actions have repercussions on other precious life form instead of just ourself.... as it is today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Only because you are determined to get me to see the bible in a positive light. That's okay, this is the debate section after all, you have every right to post your beliefs. However, I will not see the bible in a positive light, not now, not ever. But, I have no problem with spirituality, I would actually consider you if you were not associating all this within the text of christianity. Maybe you should consider the fact that Christianity is a copy of many popular religions of that time, hundreds of years before Jesus was even mentioned. Those things DO NOT need to be in a book with threats, period. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed. True wisdom, beauty, and love stand alone on thier own merits without any need for threats. Bible Gawd is a very insecure deity. 1) The tree of knowlege test. 2) The whole flood thing 3) the tower of human ingenuity and know how. 4) Punnishing the "ignorant" for worshiping "false" gods due to bible gods neglect. Why is bible god so jealous of other gods if he is all that and a bag of chips? Why the threats and retaliation instead of persuasion through superior wisdom, love and beauty? Bible gawd is very ugly instead dont ya think so? 5) Turning a poor curious lady into a pillar of salt, just for looking back at the plight of innocent babies, infants, being destroyed right along with thier parents in the city of no charity. The list can go on but I'll add the threat of hell, or destruction in there too. What? Bible gawd is so limited in wisdom, power, and love that he can't even persuade satan, his own creation into changing his heart? Amanda. I just can't see the same god that you see in the bible. yhwh is very ugly to me. And so is jesus because he is yhwh and among other things that are hateful in his tactics in the N.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Thankful, Hesitent, Mythra, DC - I agree. I remember how shocked I was when I was hurt very deeply by a friend and was trying to figure out how to handle my negative emotions. The thought passed through my mind, what model is there in scripture? Then I realized what I would do to that friend if I acted the way God is represented as acting! ONly difference would be that whatever suffering I could inflict would be finite, not lasting forever like that which God inflicts. God's power is in heaven.... the kingdom of God, and Jesus says the kingdom of God is within you... hence, a part deep down in each of us ALL is a characteristic of love, patient, kind, not envious, not boastful, not proud, not rude, not selfish, not easily angered, not recording anyone's wrongs, rejoices in truth instead of delights in evil, always protects, always trusts these ways, always hopes... looking for the good to come, and always perseveres... Amanda, you point to the good parts of human nature deep down in people. Agreed - mixed with other stuff though it is. It won't work to try to say the character "God" in the Bible is this way. It also won't work to change the story of Noah into a metaphor or allegory, as you suggest doing in a later post on this thread. I don't understand why you persist with the Bible. It seems to me you have to do much fancy footwork of interpretation to get your view of it to match your generous impulses and your search for an authentic spirituality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 AMANDA: ARE YOU COMPLETELY WHACKED?? just kidding. Why don't you weigh in on the Jesus is a Myth thread and tell where we are going wrong.. Or get an education... m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I just can't get a handle on HOW I ever thought the answers were adequate, but I wish I did understand this, because until I do, I don't think I can truly understand where anyone else is coming from. Hesitent, please don't take this offensively as we are talking about the people we may have been in the past. Because you asked the question, I'll offer my opinion. If you "simply believed," and you were beyond the age of a small child, I think it might have been partly due to laziness, intellectual laziness. Perhaps, you were simply blinded or blind-sided by familial, societal and cultural pressures to believe and you were not yet disciplined, independent and strong enough to begin the exhausting work of erudition and personal evaluation. You might have been ambivalent to it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Here is a fine little bible nugget to testify to the goodness of God: But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked at the ark of the LORD. 1 Sam 6:19 70 people knocked dead cause someone took a peek at the ark of the LORD? Damn God, that's rough. Actually, this isn't accurate. This is a "newly revised" version in the NIV. The actual number is 50,070 in the Hebrew manuscripts and the Septuagint. You know, christians would be money ahead if they would just admit that these OT stories are just made up stories, and not actual events. Kinda hard to keep justifying this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Having said that, we are referring to a time of long ago that was considered to be less than completely civilized. Reading it says that the sons of the self exhalted, judges and kings, were taking anyone and any thing to satisfy their sexual lust, producing children. This perpetual dishonor of life, possibly including beastiality, producing a sociopathic generation brought much sorrow. Noah and his family, being less than perfect, still found grace... and so were spared. This process of eradication of the mentally depraved saddened God so much that he swore he would never resort to this again... and I think there is more of a proactive approach now instead of corrective. This transfromation is probably a learning aspect meant for us, not him, and to include our actions have repercussions on other precious life form instead of just ourself.... as it is today. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah so you are saying that everyone in the entire world was fucking goats which made God really pissy. Even little babies being born were fucking goats or their ten year old brothers were producing children, or their five year old sisters were satisfying their lusts with kumquats or something. Everyone in the entire world except Noah and his family were fucking goats or kumquats. If it saddened God so very much...then why do it? When you are a God you don't have to resort to modes of action that sadden you. You don't have to compromise and say "well let's do a genocide then, so I don't have to see some more five year olds fucking kumquats". You can just snap your omnipotent fingers and bingo, problems solved. 'Cause you'd be a god. I don't see why Christians make their god so very impotent all the time when it comes to things like this. He can move mountains but he can't solve the "lusts of the deputy's sons" without resorting to simply killing everyone and everything in the world. What a stupid god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Hesitent, please don't take this offensively as we are talking about the people we may have been in the past. Because you asked the question, I'll offer my opinion. If you "simply believed," and you were beyond the age of a small child, I think it might have been partly due to laziness, intellectual laziness. Perhaps, you were simply blinded or blind-sided by familial, societal and cultural pressures to believe and you were not yet disciplined, independent and strong enough to begin the exhausting work of erudition and personal evaluation. You might have been ambivalent to it all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am not offended. I think you've probably touched on the explanation. I think I blocked out a lot of questioning because I feared the answers would rock my world too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Amanda. I just can't see the same god that you see in the bible. yhwh is very ugly to me. And so is jesus because he is yhwh and among other things that are hateful in his tactics in the N.T. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What is important is that you and Thankful have a wonderfully compassionate heart, of which I am very honored to see. Your outspoken position against what is an obvious atrosity to you, as you see it, is a rare and unique position in this day and age... especially when it goes against popular beliefs. 'That' is refreshing. That's ok that you don't understand me... sincerely, you don't need to understand what I say. Hopefully I am already on the "same page" as you two any way.... without even using the 'book' to justify anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I don't understand why you persist with the Bible. It seems to me you have to do much fancy footwork of interpretation to get your view of it to match your generous impulses and your search for an authentic spirituality. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My journey is one you may never understand. Mind you, when I started this path... I did not want to study the Bible. I had a great teacher, and many delightful things were exposed that amazed me. There are many paths to the same destination, and that journey is a personal one. As I see it, ALL of you are wonderful on this site and I have no complaints about the journey you took to get here. I sincerely feel very fortunate to have found you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 AMANDA: ARE YOU COMPLETELY WHACKED?? just kidding. Why don't you weigh in on the Jesus is a Myth thread and tell where we are going wrong.. Or get an education... m. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mythra, you've got to be one of the best people around. Verrrry interesting! I've always liked your style... as I do of most of the people on this site. Have I said, that they should make a sitcom of this site, before now? Really! (No one ever listens to me) No one on this site has done anything wrong! Actually I see you guys as the ones Jesus himself would love to keep company with... except for when he had to go straighten out the rest of the world. I will check out 'Jesus is a myth thread' and can't understand how I let that one slide by any way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Kinda hard to keep justifying this stuff. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I still think you're ONE of the best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts