Who's more christlike? Biblegod or Humans?

[dogmatically_challenged]

What is important is that you and Thankful have a wonderfully compassionate heart, of which I am very honored to see. Your outspoken position against what is an obvious atrosity to you, as you see it, is a rare and unique position in this day and age... especially when it goes against popular beliefs. 'That' is refreshing.

 

That's ok that you don't understand me... sincerely, you don't need to understand what I say. Hopefully I am already on the "same page" as you two any way.... without even using the 'book' to justify anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As far as my character goes...I appreciate your kindness, but I am trying to improve. To be better than I used to be. I can say, but I can't always do. My blood is red just like anyone elses is. But thank you for being open minded with me.

 

As far as a compassionate heart, guilt started before the compassion.

 

A close relative of mine commited suicide, beccause he was very depressed and filled with self loathing. He was a victim of scripture and of the people who believe in scripture. He was Gay. He could not hide it because he was naturaly effeminate. So people, even his own family treated him like shit all of his life. And I was apathetic sometimes. He had to die before I woke up. It was even when I was just starting to doubt Christianity. He was a decent and generous man. What was my excuse? None. But enough of that.

 

Amanda. I think you are a freethinker just because you are questioning the bible. You are questioning many things probably. You are testing and questioning. We are were we are in freethough.

 

I am glad to see you in the arena. Kudos!

[Amanda]

A close relative of mine commited suicide, beccause he was very depressed and filled with self loathing. He was a victim of scripture and of the people who believe in scripture. He was Gay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am truly sorry to hear about your beloved friend and relative. This pervasively evil attack against gays in society saddens my heart to great depths of sorrow. I too, have some of my most cherished friends as gay. It is not your fault DC, as it is something we ALL need to step up to the plate and make a stand for these innocent that are condemned. It is appreciated that you share this with us so that we are reminded of the importance to make a stand and lend a helping hand when ever we have an opportunity to do so in this area.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I am truly sorry to hear about your beloved friend and relative. This pervasively evil attack against gays in society saddens my heart to great depths of sorrow. I too, have some of my most cherished friends as gay. It is not your fault DC, as it is something we ALL need to step up to the plate and make a stand for these innocent that are condemned. It is appreciated that you share this with us so that we are reminded of the importance to make a stand and lend a helping hand when ever we have an opportunity to do so in this area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate that Amanda. Theres many forms of Christianity and Christians that I do not blame directly. All I know is what I read in scripture, and the fact that no matter what your dogma is from scripture, that book has way too much power in the minds of people. And by extension many times through history a hateful pastor, greedy ruler, uncaring people in general have become an "authority" using the "Authority" of that book.

 

But I want to make it crystal clear that I know damn well that regadless of whats in that book, there are Christians that would never treat People badly. I know this. But I feel that using the bible as a method for morality is potentially dangerous and it is not necessary to use a mythology book as a moral compass AND IT SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR THAT AT ALL unless you can question its authority without fear. We must be able to keep the gems and reject what is bigoted, hateful, and ugly or just plain stupid. People need to stop calling that book the word of god.

 

So we are cool Amanda if that is your worry. You know I like you.

[Amanda]

amanda...do you have any intention of addressing the problems of a literal flood story?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Zoe, that is a subject just recently presented to me here for a more introspective analysis, and I have discussed it in somewhat great length, perhaps on another thread.

 

I sense that it is a true story, although my teacher had commented to me one day that he thought it was a metaphor. Unfortunately he passed away before I could probe his means of evaluating to discern his more specific conclusions of this subject... or of the many more other respected beliefs of his.

 

However, I do believe there is a lot of good substance here and would do my best to engage respectfully with you here on this matter. May I ask which specific problem you would like to discuss first?

[Cerise]

However, I do believe there is a lot of good substance here and would do my best to engage respectfully with you here on this matter. May I ask which specific problem you would like to discuss first?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How 'bout the problem with having an omnipotent God have to resort to something as silly as destroying the entire earth in order to stop babies and parrots from giving themselves over to lust.

[Amanda]

How 'bout the problem with having an omnipotent God have to resort to something as silly as destroying the entire earth in order to stop babies and parrots from giving themselves over to lust.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise, with all due respect, and I do respect you, do you really want to explore each of our own understandings in an exchange of ideas in order to see if we can grow and attain new insights amongst us? Perhaps recognition of another persons perspectives can give us insights into their views and add more illumination on the world around us. It doesn't mean we have to agree or accept their views, although I would hope that we can still exist in a respectful manner of one another.

 

In regards to this and previous post from you... if I've offended you, my deepest apologies as that was never my intentions. If you would share with me what I've done, then perhaps I can then be aware of avoiding the same event with you and others in the future. If I am just a convenient source to subject your frustrations... that's ok too... I just won't bother with the discourse you seem to suggest to engage. I will be the first to admit I'm not too smart in determining some people's motives. What are yours?

[Cerise]

I am not offended. I am, rather, annoyed. You seem to be determined to brush off this very real problem with a blanket aura of projected persecution.

 

Is this a case of "oh my, she used foul language and a blunt manner so this must not be a valid inquiry" with you or is it something different?

 

What you've done isn't the problem. What you haven't done is. What you haven't done is provide any good reason why your god had to resort to such hideous tactics. You've brushed off very real concerns by using the old fallback of "times were different then" and then ranting on about the sexual deviency of what must have been every person plant and animal other then Noah and his family (although they did indulge in a perversion or two after the whole flood debalacle, I notice). Including children and, as Zoe so painstakingly pointed out, kittens.

 

I don't trust you to address any of these points head on though. It would mean coming down out of the hippy feel-good mentally of 'I just love Jesus, isn't love grand, the bible has lots of nice stories, yippy skippy' that you indulge in. It would mean taking on issues such as the murder of innocents, genocide, and the possibility of a destructive, tyrannical god. Quite frankly, I don't believe you capable of doing that. That is, by the way, not a snide remark or an insult. There was a time when I would not have been able to seriously confront all of that either.

 

That does not mean, however, that you get to project an injured air around us every time we do discuss such things, as if by doing so we are killing your cat. No, my dear, we are not God and we aren't drowning your kitties by talking about him in a way that you might find disturbing. Off the cross please, other people need the firewood.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Fact is; if we have a Creator who IS love and IS a just god and can do anything and knows all, then we would have a very different god than what is given us in that book which is allegedly the scoop on the Creator.

 

A jealous god? The bible ("gods word") describes what love is, then makes the claim that bible god is love AND THEN if we look in the O.T. we see jelous god. This is an outright contradiction. How do we know if people are fibbing? They can't get thier stories straight thats how we know.

 

Christianities gods are not the god of abraham and this is obvious.

[chefranden]

I am not offended.  I am, rather, annoyed.  You seem to be determined to brush off this very real problem with a blanket aura of projected persecution. 

 

Is this a case of "oh my, she used foul language and a blunt manner so this must not be a valid inquiry" with you or is it something different?

 

What you've done isn't the problem.  What you haven't done is.  What you haven't done is provide any good reason why your god had to resort to such hideous tactics.  You've brushed off very real concerns by using the old fallback of "times were different then" and then ranting on about the sexual deviency of what must have been every person plant and animal other then Noah and his family (although they did indulge in a perversion or two after the whole flood debalacle, I notice).  Including children and, as Zoe so painstakingly pointed out, kittens.

 

I don't trust you to address any of these points head on though.  It would mean coming down out of the hippy feel-good mentally of 'I just love Jesus, isn't love grand, the bible has lots of nice stories, yippy skippy' that you indulge in.  It would mean taking on issues such as the murder of innocents, genocide, and the possibility of a destructive, tyrannical god.  Quite frankly, I don't believe you capable of doing that.  That is, by the way, not a snide remark or an insult.  There was a time when I would not have been able to seriously confront all of that either.

 

That does not mean, however, that you get to project an injured air around us every time we do discuss such things, as if by doing so we are killing your cat.  No, my dear, we are not God and we aren't drowning your kitties by talking about him in a way that you might find disturbing.  Off the cross please, other people need the firewood.

 

 

Cerise, if I was 30 years younger, I'd come to Canada and worship at your feet!

[Amanda]

How do you accept the story as literally true and god is still good even in light of the fact that he drowned all the kittens save for two?  (of course it goes without saying we are REALLY addressing all animals...a lot of them very cute...koalas, pandas, puppies, ferrets, lions, tigers, bears, parrots (they had no where to perch they can't fly forever), cute little budgies...also some ugly less pleasant animals like rats and snakes and lizards...but surely they don't deserve to drown just cause they are creepy?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Zoe, it takes a lot of research to gather insights into these stories. I know that frustrates people who want a Bible that is clear and precise, without such subjective interpretations. It is that at the time the Bible was written they were not as precisely articulate as we are today, further, King James' team wasn't even nearly as linguistically evolved as we. I'm sure an element of one's perceptions influenced by their cultural positions, amongst other things, can be a variable. Yet, doing it many times, there becomes a pattern of something more substancial and in its reoccurrence, seemingly honing into a more accurate message. I spent a lot of time on this only to offer you another view that exists out in the world via this technique...

 

Man began to multiply to be many, and defiled, polluted, desecrated, violated each other and things of the earth. They became weak, sick, diseased and the ability to perpetuate their sickness was brought forth. The sons of those in high positions took whomever they wanted to satisfy their sexual lust. The existence, the manifestation of what is good and respectful can not plead a cause, vindicate man as he has sinned inadvertently, gone astray so his time of life will be shortened to have less impact. God still saw that man's vicious disposition, malignant, evil ways perpetrated misery, injury, distress, calamity, adversity with an exceedingly abundant manner. And every thought, every creation of a situation and purpose of his mind, will, and understanding was continually only evil, effecting the whole earth. It affected the living things of the earth with malignancy, all flesh had been corrupted, pervert, spoiled, and ruined God's manner, direction for the earth. It brought great sorrow to God to have made them.

[dogmatically_challenged]

and ruined God's manner, direction for the earth.

Amanda. Please explain this. How can we have power over god through our actions? Also god could have solved the problem using his omnipowers with each individual through persuasion and leading by example instead of matching evil for evil, violence for violence. God is supposedly not limited and could lead and change us through his wisdom and power while being able to pull off leading and teaching by example.

 

Our limitations are not Gods limitations. If he does not like violence then he should not use it himself.

[Cerise]

Zoe, it takes a lot of research to gather insights into these stories. I know that frustrates people who want a Bible that is clear and precise, without such subjective interpretations. It is that at the time the Bible was written they were not as precisely articulate as we are today, further, King James' team wasn't even nearly as linguistically evolved as we. I'm sure an element of one's perceptions influenced by their cultural positions, amongst other things, can be a variable. Yet, doing it many times, there becomes a pattern of something more substancial and in its reoccurrence, seemingly honing into a more accurate message. I spent a lot of time on this only to offer you another view that exists out in the world via this technique...

 

Man began to multiply to be many, and defiled, polluted, desecrated, violated each other and things of the earth. They became weak, sick, diseased and the ability to perpetuate their sickness was brought forth. The sons of those in high positions took whomever they wanted to satisfy their sexual lust. The existence, the manifestation of what is good and respectful can not plead a cause, vindicate man as he has sinned inadvertently, gone astray so his time of life will be shortened to have less impact. God still saw that man's vicious disposition, malignant, evil ways perpetrated misery, injury, distress, calamity, adversity with an exceedingly abundant manner. And every thought, every creation of a situation and purpose of his mind, will, and understanding was continually only evil, effecting the whole earth. It affected the living things of the earth with malignancy, all flesh had been corrupted, pervert, spoiled, and ruined God's manner, direction for the earth. It brought great sorrow to God to have made them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah. I can see Amanda shall now begin a game of "If I just ignore you, maybe you'll go away and stop giving me hard questions I can't answer".

 

Trust me, that never works.

[Alice]

Whilst you are all waiting for Amanda to get back to you about the horrors of kitten drowning, are any of you familiar with the humor of Eddie Izzard? he does this great flood skit all about an evil giraffe (I will eat more leaves than I should mmwwhahaaa) and a rebellious duck. Well worth a watch.

[Amanda]

Amanda. Please explain this. How can we have power over god through our actions? Also god could have solved the problem using his omnipowers with each individual through persuasion and leading by example instead of matching evil for evil, violence for violence. God is supposedly not limited and could lead and change us through his wisdom and power while being able to pull off leading and teaching by example.

Our limitations are not Gods limitations. If he does not like violence then he should not use it himself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dogmatically Challenged, first I'd like to say that I wish there were more people like you in this world... certainly not because you agree with me... as you very rarely ever agree with me on anything... but because you seem to treat people decent, even those that don't agree with you. Whatever path you're on, I'd stay on that one as it seems to me that your doing better than most people I know.

 

One thing, I don't know... is if this Noah story really happened or if it is a metaphor. Yet, I will share with you how I see this from the position I have ended up in my life journey thus far.

 

There are opposing forces, and these opposing sides contribute to experiences. We can not see unless something opposes the light, feel unless something opposes our touch, etc. It goes further, we wouldn't be able to know happiness unless we knew sorrow, the feeling of victory unless we knew the feeling of defeat... or even appreciate life if there wasn't death. These spectrums enhance our understanding, and hopefully our appreciation.

 

It is my understanding that God made us, out of himself, to be a companion in his image. Who wants a friend that they make them be their friend, and who wants a freind that thinks just exactly like them? Diversity brings the option to grow. Perhaps the human race is maturing and evolving into a perfect friend with the universe. Additionally, I think there is an aspect in which ALL are parts of God, and he/she is experiencing everything through all things, and what God determines to do he is doing to himself.

 

Yet there seems to be the necessity of an order to guide everything on a path that allows healthy growth. If unhealthy growth manifests, then it would be better for the whole to first try to reverse this, but it has to be out of the desire and will of that part and not constant militant force. If it continues to destroy without consequences, it will continue. Maybe there is a lesson that what we do can affect our whole environment, including the animals and plants. Perhaps it is showing us that mankind are the ones to be serving these aspects in our world instead of them serving us, and be interdependent with all things, or we will lose it. It is then, perhaps, we will lead a much more healthy life out of desire. I also believe that some part of our 'being', including animals, transcends the body's demise... and perhaps enters into a much more amazing journey, although this life is important and valuable.

 

The important thing to me, is that it doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, or that you see things differently in the position you are now. Differences are what make life interesting... and enjoyable when done in respect of one another. That is my opinion any way.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Amanda

 

"One thing, I don't know... is if this Noah story really happened or if it is a metaphor. Yet, I will share with you how I see this from the position I have ended up in my life journey thus far."

I don't know a whole lot about what kinds of natural disasters have happened in the past but as far as the flooding in that region goes it would not suprise me if there was a great flood in that area.

 

Perhaps for a deeper understanding of the stories in that book you should research into the past and see if there really was a flood in that area at the time. There are different ancient stories on a flood in that region of the world. Dead traditions deserve respect too and not just the ones that are supported today. I hope other peoples stories, though they differ are equally valuable to you. I don't think it is fair to humanity to only support one peoples story or perception of Higher Power over the rest. Our traditions will never agree in ethics and "history", which is why it might be more fair to get an emapathy for the motives of the ancient writers in trying to gain understanding if possible. Maybe that is were the truth is.

 

It is impossible to harmonize every ones stories, and it is unfair to value one story over the other. That book should not be called the word of God. No book should in my opinion. If you are looking for hidden meanings in that book it might help to remember that other peoples have thier stories to. So maybe we should be careful in believing that a story actually happened the way it was told. I think we should read the Bible while keeping in mind the fact that other peoples have thier own stories. I think this will bring a ballance to our perspective. You seem to be doing this very thing in some of what you share, but my tastes would enjoy more of a ballance and less favortism when enjoying the writings of our ancestors who all deserve equal respect.

 

"There are opposing forces, and these opposing sides contribute to experiences. We can not see unless something opposes the light, feel unless something opposes our touch, etc. It goes further, we wouldn't be able to know happiness unless we knew sorrow, the feeling of victory unless we knew the feeling of defeat... or even appreciate life if there wasn't death. These spectrums enhance our understanding, and hopefully our appreciation."

This ying and yang aleady exists in all things already. There never was a need for intervention from the Creator in our history like in the stories, there is already contrasts on the cosmic canvas without intervention from a Creator in our affairs.

 

"It is my understanding that God made us, out of himself, to be a companion in his image. Who wants a friend that they make them be their friend, and who wants a freind that thinks just exactly like them? Diversity brings the option to grow. Perhaps the human race is maturing and evolving into a perfect friend with the universe. Additionally, I think there is an aspect in which ALL are parts of God, and he/she is experiencing everything through all things, and what God determines to do he is doing to himself."

You can have this without placing any stock in the stories of our ancient ancestors, and here you have more reason to look for the motives of the ancient writers while treating all peoples stories as having equal value. Our diverse traditions can not be harmonized. Instead of placing to much stock in these stories we should look at the motives of the ancient writers if it is possible to gain a wisdom that way. I think I understand you better Amanda. I think so. You should be an Anthropologist. The value that they get from our ancient traditions should be free of favortism. Thier methods are better in getting value out of the writings and cultures of the ancients.

 

"Yet there seems to be the necessity of an order to guide everything on a path that allows healthy growth."

If every individual is God, then perhaps people are what brings this about, and you should be using the same methods that historians and anthropologists use as a supplement to your spirituality. I would focus more on humanity than just one tradition of humanity. A small piece of the whole is small knowlege, but the true sage tries to see the whole; without bias for any one small part.

 

Are you trying to bring a ballance to our perceptions of the bible through sharing your perceptions? This is good even if we disagree on some things. I like your motives Amanda. I really do.

[Guest AscendoTuumDeus]

If Noah's Ark™ is just a story, shouldn't the Bible as a whole be taken as a story, since who is to interpret the fact from the crap.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I have a group, I got run. I'll be back in two hours.

[Cerise]

Dogmatically Challenged, first I'd like to say that I wish there were more people like you in this world... certainly not because you agree with me... as you very rarely ever agree with me on anything... but because you seem to treat people decent, even those that don't agree with you. Whatever path you're on, I'd stay on that one as it seems to me that your doing better than most people I know.

 

hmmm....

 

 

Interpretation #1: Eeeeeevil people in this thread are persecuting me with their uncouth language and their questions that don't assume that god is a hunky-dory guy! How dare they? They don't respect my opinions which I refuse to actually defend in any sort of way except to say that God's ways are not our ways and that I have opinions! And I luuuurve everyone! I take attacks against my religion as personal attacks on my character, even though I really don't know what religion I am promoting in the first place (seems to be Universalism). Make them stop persecuting me!

[dogmatically_challenged]

hmmm....

Interpretation #1:  Eeeeeevil people in this thread are persecuting me with their uncouth language and their questions that don't assume that god is a hunky-dory guy!  How dare they?  They don't respect my opinions which I refuse to actually defend in any sort of way except to say that God's ways are not our ways and that I have opinions!  And I luuuurve everyone!  I take attacks against my religion as personal attacks on my character, even though I really don't know what religion I am promoting in the first place (seems to be Universalism).  Make them stop persecuting me!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We should use the best methods in finding truth. We should not ignor the holes in our own understandings. We should not ignor it when we contradict ourselves.

 

I agree Cerise, I think we are totaly misunderstood by theists in our motives.

How can any of us improve our methods if we aren't really willing to test them by reasoning together with others and allowing others to point out the holes and contradictions that are found in our "truths"? I would want to use the best methods in finding truth and am willing to discard what does not work and keep what does.

[Cerise]

Whilst you are all waiting for Amanda to get back to you about the horrors of kitten drowning, are any of you familiar with the humor of Eddie Izzard? he does this great flood skit all about an evil giraffe (I will eat more leaves than I should mmwwhahaaa) and a rebellious duck. Well worth a watch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Evil Giraffe: I have eaten all the leave off this tree. I have got up early to eat all the leaves off this tree, and when the other giraffes wake up there shall be no leaves. And some will die.

 

I have hid all these berries under a rock. When the other animals get up there shall be no berries...and some will die.

[Vixentrox]

Amanda....and other Xtians,

 

Once upon a time there was this woman. Her husband had gone off tending sheep and had not returned. The rains had been coming down constatly for a long time. The little village was becoming flooded. This young woman was worried for her husband. Seeing that the waters were rising, she takes her newborn and straps her tiny little baby girl to her back.

 

Looking for high ground, she heads to the tall hills near bye. Her and her baby are soaked. The rain just keeps coming and the waters rise. Scrambling up the tall steep hill, she eventually makes it to the top. She is getting really scared becuase the waters are still rising. Shes cold. Her baby is crying pitifully. Still the waters rise. Eventually the waters come up to her knees, then her waist, then her chest. She takes the baby and holds it over her head. Her arms are tired but she tries to keep her baby out of the rising water. Eventually, she weakens and drops the baby after the waters start to rise over mouth. Her little baby is swept away, drowned...she drowns a few minutes later. A few miles away, Noah's ark bobs on the water, the thud of floating bodies hitting the wooden sides of the hull.

 

This is you monster god version of justice. Be it a story or what actually happened, it protrayes your divine being as a hideous monster. The worst child murderer that ever existed. Get on your knees and worship this disgusting being.

[Ouroboros]

Amanda....and other Xtians,

 

Once upon a time there was this woman.  Her husband had gone off tending sheep and had not returned.  The rains had been coming down constatly for a long time.  The little village was becoming flooded.  This young woman was worried for her husband.  Seeing that the waters were rising, she takes her newborn and straps her tiny little baby girl to her back.

 

Looking for high ground, she heads to the tall hills near bye.  Her and her baby are soaked.  The rain just keeps coming and the waters rise.  Scrambling up the tall steep hill, she eventually makes it to the top.  She is getting really scared becuase the waters are still rising.  Shes cold.  Her baby is crying pitifully.  Still the waters rise.  Eventually the waters come up to her knees, then her waist, then her chest.  She takes the baby and holds it over her head.  Her arms are tired but she tries to keep her baby out of the rising water.  Eventually, she weakens and drops the baby after the waters start to rise over mouth.  Her little baby is swept away, drowned...she drowns a few minutes later.  A few miles away, Noah's ark bobs on the water, the thud of floating bodies hitting the wooden sides of the hull.

 

This is you monster god version of justice.  Be it a story or what actually happened, it protrayes your divine being as a hideous monster.  The worst child murderer that ever existed.  Get on your knees and worship this disgusting being.

 

Burrh... very vivid imagery...

 

When will Mel Gibson make a move out of this?

[Amanda]

Amanda....and other Xtians,

-----------------------------------------------

This is you monster god version of justice.  Be it a story or what actually happened, it protrayes your divine being as a hideous monster.  The worst child murderer that ever existed.  Get on your knees and worship this disgusting being.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vixentrox, if that is who I thought God was, then I wouldn't hold him in such high esteem either. I'm with you, no one who is sane would celebrate a god like that! Everyone has an opinion, and that is yours, and you seem to have the right response for your interpretation. I'm fine with that.

[Cerise]

Amanda....and other Xtians,

 

Once upon a time there was this woman.  Her husband had gone off tending sheep and had not returned.  The rains had been coming down constatly for a long time.  The little village was becoming flooded.  This young woman was worried for her husband.  Seeing that the waters were rising, she takes her newborn and straps her tiny little baby girl to her back.

 

Looking for high ground, she heads to the tall hills near bye.  Her and her baby are soaked.  The rain just keeps coming and the waters rise.  Scrambling up the tall steep hill, she eventually makes it to the top.  She is getting really scared becuase the waters are still rising.  Shes cold.  Her baby is crying pitifully.  Still the waters rise.  Eventually the waters come up to her knees, then her waist, then her chest.  She takes the baby and holds it over her head.  Her arms are tired but she tries to keep her baby out of the rising water.  Eventually, she weakens and drops the baby after the waters start to rise over mouth.  Her little baby is swept away, drowned...she drowns a few minutes later.  A few miles away, Noah's ark bobs on the water, the thud of floating bodies hitting the wooden sides of the hull.

 

This is you monster god version of justice.  Be it a story or what actually happened, it protrayes your divine being as a hideous monster.  The worst child murderer that ever existed.  Get on your knees and worship this disgusting being.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah, but please try to remember, Viventrox, that this woman and her husband were probably doing horribly perveted sexual acts such as partaking of the sheep, and the child would grow up to be a sociopath so apparently it was perfectly acceptable for God to drown them.

 

Or at least, that's Amanda's story and she's sticking to it.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Vixentrox, if that is who I thought God was, then I wouldn't hold him in such high esteem either. I'm with you, no one who is sane would celebrate a god like that! Everyone has an opinion, and that is yours, and you seem to have the right response for your interpretation. I'm fine with that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A method should be free of bias. You ASSUME that god is what the bible describes. There are many, many possibilities of what the Creator really is if there is one.

But no. Your methods are geared to make excusses for the ugliness that is in that book. Amanda, if there is a Creator then your book is an ugly slander of our Creator. Something Intelligent enough to creat the whole damn universe would not act lowly like a primitive human. Bible god stinks like a primitive human.

 

The difference between our opinions of the bible and yours is that we see the good and the bad scripture. You don't, or you try to twist and torture that book to fit what you want. You have no logical methods. You never answer questions put to you. Your answers never address specific questions that we put to you.

 

(Zoe Grace @ Jun 27 2005, 10:46 PM)I have a question...do you believe the noah's ark flood REALLY happened and that it was somehow ordained by god?

 

If so, how do you explain the mass genocide of kittens by drowning in light of a "loving" god?

 

Look. If bible god is omni-smart, omni-powerful, omnipresent and omni-benevolent, then bible god has the ability to correct us without using violence. And since the bible places the limititation on biblegod that bible god IS love then we would have been given an entirey different outcome than biblegod destroying all the people. According to bibles definition of love we see the word protection. Bible god is limited to protcting everyone. He would have protected ALL persons from themselves and eachother while using his abilties to teach a better way through example. If biblegod IS love then his example would be love according to his abilties. And remember that the bible says god can do ANYTHING. Welcome to refutation city. Population....you.

 

Now heres your nonanswer to Zoe.

 

we are referring to a time of long ago that was considered to be less than completely civilized. Reading it says that the sons of the self exhalted, judges and kings, were taking anyone and any thing to satisfy their sexual lust, producing children. This perpetual dishonor of life, possibly including beastiality, producing a sociopathic generation brought much sorrow. Noah and his family, being less than perfect, still found grace... and so were spared.

So why were innocent children and babies killed right along with innocent animals? And please keep in mind the abilties that biblegod has to draw on so that he does not contradict his nature, "God IS love." You never adressed this. Your answer was a nonanswer to her question. You are dodgy.

 

You

This process of eradication of the mentally depraved saddened God so much that he swore he would never resort to this again...

This is a nonanswer to the question asked of you. What about the innocent animals and human infants?

 

You

and I think there is more of a proactive approach now instead of corrective.

If biblegod has all those omni-abilities and bible god IS love as defined in 1 Corinthians 13:4, then biblegod would have had the perfect solution in correcting us, without going against his nature which IS love. Yes, biblegod would have had the perfect solution in correcting us in EVERY case.

 

You

This transfromation is probably a learning aspect meant for us, not him, and to include our actions have repercussions on other precious life form instead of just ourself.... as it is today.

With all of bible gods abilities he could have done better than using violence. Something he himself commands us not to do. With all of bible gods abilities he could have taught us through example of what love is.

 

This is just a guess, bible god for starters would have had to be present in everyones lives in the SAME way that our parents were with us. Bible god would have had to raise each and every individual himself. And bible god according to the bible is everywhere. hehe.

 

If "All things are parts of God" then maybe you should rid yourself of your chauvinism for just one slice of humanity. If we have a Creator then Higher Power and Human History belongs to the whole of Humanity and not just a few groups. Everyone has thier story and these mythologies can not be harmonized.

 

The only way to be fair to ALL is to use fair methods in determining what really happened in our history on the planet and all accounts of gods can not be harmonized together. Your methods aren't really methods at all and are not fair to the other peoples of the planet.