☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Usually certain posts just roll of my back and I don't give them another thought. This one really bothers me and I should have never entered the conversation. Even tho the title of this thread can be shocking, I think it cuts to the core of what being a christian is all about. As a fundamentalist christian I thought that I was to be fully subservient to god and to offer up my life for him to use HOWEVER he saw fit. I asked him regularly to use me as he wanted. This story of Mary reinforces that. Mary's willing to do whatever god wants and is not upset at all by being impregnated by him. That's the message that's being taught to christians by this story. Your life is not your own. Of course, as a non-christian, I think this is a harmful message. Firstly, I have never heard a christian give a good explanation of how they know for certain that their god is asking them to do something. Secondly, this is a message that denies self-worth and self-determination. I don't think that's healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I second that...... Why so? From the story and from mainstream theology Jesus is his own papa. Just another of those thorns in the side of Trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 You're right, she was "told",not asked. Funny, some see David and Bathsheba as a love story, I see it as rape. David wanted her and the guards brought her to him. They had a baby, god punished the baby with a week long painful death as David's punishment. What a guy! What happened to Mary is not out of character for this deity. Good point! Maybe this is what God ment when he said that David was a man after his own heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Usually certain posts just roll of my back and I don't give them another thought. This one really bothers me and I should have never entered the conversation. Forgive me for even posting here. Tap I forgive you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Good point! Maybe this is what God ment when he said that David was a man after his own heart. Great minds think alike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Great minds think alike? Evidently "Godly" does not mean what people think it means... But, to be fair, David behaves with the same caprice and self-aggrandizement as does God in the same era. Like in all pagan cultures, the Hebrew God is above the law and is righteous simply becuase he's more powerful than anybody else. David, being the King, is in the same boat and acts much the same way, getting smacked down only indirectly - and only once. -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Admittedly, even a slight moment of self-distinction of highness-lowness, would draw you and I closer to the Pharisees as described by the Gospel writers. When Jesus was dining with sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes, “This man Jesus is eating with sinners….” What I do dislike, is well thought out and planned patronization with some self-taught Christian love and patience. Not that I didn't do that as a Christian. Maybe that is why I see through it. Thank you for noticing, Madame. I was afraid that no one else caught that. Scotter, You can take your super-secret-encoded-encrypted holier than thou attitude and stuff it up your self-righteous ass. Be aware, that there are some people here who turned away from the faith because they realized that they were becoming exactly like you. Yes, and honest, personal examination will take a good person away from the "faith". Stuff it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 HEHE! Fwee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 HEHE! Fwee! Ummm.... I usually throw in a couple of these ---> when I'm jokin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Fwee, I'm so jaded now when it comes to Christian stuff. I know all their answers, all their moves. I even know their potential answers to stuff I think about posting, and sometimes I hold back because I know the christiany tricks to twisting the conversation back to their advantage. IMHO, if one has to plan out how to love people and discuss how to show tolerance; they are neither genuinely loving nor tolerant- but they would like to appear that way, because it opens doors for conversion. Everything is planned out to ultimately convert. See, I'm jaded. I know what you mean. You were in it deeper than I ever was. I would like to see someone try to refute this comment of yours: IMHO, if one has to plan out how to love people and discuss how to show tolerance; they are neither genuinely loving nor tolerant- but they would like to appear that way When I read that, I could almost hear you hitting the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Well, at least I'm not missin' and hittin' my thumbs anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 What is it with the quote feature of this new board? If there is one thing about the new board that sucks, that is it right there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bearwithme Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I think I would have continued on believing Christianity if it hadn't been for the way women are treated in the church. I was so immersed in it since birth I didn't think about it until I started trying to really live an active Christian life in a church with chauvanistic pastor. Then I started looking around me and thinking about how the church was no different than other portions of "secular" society that found ways to control and misuse women. All these stories I just swallowed now seem sickening to me. I never paid attention to the fact that Lot treated his daughters so horribly, it was just overlooked. Oh, on a side note, one time another pastor gave me a brochure entitled "The Sin of Bathsheba". The author went on and on about how she was at fault for bathing in plain view etc. and then the author proceeded to give detailed instructions on how women should dress. What a crock! Plus, the guy published the thing anonymously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I think I would have continued on believing Christianity if it hadn't been for the way women are treated in the church. I was so immersed in it since birth I didn't think about it until I started trying to really live an active Christian life in a church with chauvanistic pastor. Then I started looking around me and thinking about how the church was no different than other portions of "secular" society that found ways to control and misuse women. All these stories I just swallowed now seem sickening to me. I never paid attention to the fact that Lot treated his daughters so horribly, it was just overlooked. Oh, on a side note, one time another pastor gave me a brochure entitled "The Sin of Bathsheba". The author went on and on about how she was at fault for bathing in plain view etc. and then the author proceeded to give detailed instructions on how women should dress. What a crock! Plus, the guy published the thing anonymously! Welcome Bear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
been borg again Posted May 28, 2005 Author Share Posted May 28, 2005 Thank you for noticing, Madame. I was afraid that no one else caught that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Fwee, I'm so jaded now when it comes to Christian stuff. I know all their answers, all their moves. I even know their potential answers to stuff I think about posting, and sometimes I hold back because I know the christiany tricks to twisting the conversation back to their advantage. IMHO, if one has to plan out how to love people and discuss how to show tolerance; they are neither genuinely loving nor tolerant- but they would like to appear that way, because it opens doors for conversion. Everything is planned out to ultimately convert. See, I'm jaded. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> no kidding, I know exactly what you mean. I promised myself I would never become bitter towards christianity. but these past few years with the way my own parents disown me, the way all my old christian friends treat me, how they avoid me like a disease, and never return my phone calls, when I just want to say HI. How I have spent the past 5 years in apologetics, and a lifetime in bible study, I have heard every single argument and every single response like I am trapped in some neverending feedback loop. I am sick at the way christians dont even know their own bible. I am done with apologetics debates and am done with socializing with christians. I just keep my mouth shut anymore and just keep reading. I went to a fundy wedding last week and about caused a satanic moment when a half dozen of my old church friends surrounded me with arguments, when I tried to avoid the subject.... I came away from the expereince acually very happy that I realized I no longer cared what they thought of me. that I didnt feel that overwelming desire to defend myself. I feel free and liberated from an addiction of defending my lack of belief. christians friends& family can think what ever they want about me, honestly I just dont care anymore, I have released their negative influence over my self-esteem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I am done with apologetics debates and am done with socializing with christians.I just keep my mouth shut anymore and just keep reading. I went to a fundy wedding last week and about caused a satanic moment when a half dozen of my old church friends surrounded me with arguments, when I tried to avoid the subject.... I came away from the expereince acually very happy that I realized I no longer cared what they thought of me. that I didnt feel that overwelming desire to defend myself. I feel free and liberated from an addiction of defending my lack of belief. christians friends& family can think what ever they want about me, honestly I just dont care anymore, I have released their negative influence over my self-esteem That's awesome. When I was christian I always felt that if I got into an argument with a non-christian, I would have to defend myself, and alwasy felt threated. That someone would say something that would take my faith away. Always scared. But now, I don't care what someone thinks. I know what I've found, and if someone want to argue, and I don't, there's no need to defend my belief anymore. It's so liberating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Welcome BearWithMe to the site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I feel free and liberated from an addiction of defending my lack of belief. Good for you. It took a while, but you finally got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Are you guys insinuating that the Holy Spirit *raped* Mary? Damn, you guys are soooo committing the unpardonable sin. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Are you guys insinuating that the Holy Spirit *raped* Mary? Damn, you guys are soooo committing the unpardonable sin. JP JP, If you or I impregnated a woman without asking her, what would you call it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Wow. This shit is deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 JP,If you or I impregnated a woman without asking her, what would you call it? I don't want to break the beautiful chain of arguments here, but to impregnate a woman is not per se a rape. Penetration (with any kind of object) against someone’s will is: 1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse. In vitro is not considered sex, so immaculate inception is not rape in its normal definition. Allegedly God created the fetus in her womb. But even though Mary didn’t know she was selected to become pregnant, she consented: Luke 1 38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. Sorry, to mess things up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Han, sweets, consent implies choice. The angel of the lord didn't say anything like "by the way, would you mind carrying the Lord's child for nine months? He's on vacay and can't take care of it right now, thanks". No where is it suggested that Mary could have, at any time, said "no thanks" to being a baby Jebus breeder. It's kind of like what doctors did to my mother after she had my brother. They tied her tubes without her permission, because her pregnancy was extremely difficult and it was doubtful she would survive another. And my mother said she didn't want another child, it's true, and probably would have got her tubes tied anyway, but that isn't the point. The point is, they didn't ask first. They just did it. And that's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 No where is it suggested that Mary could have, at any time, said "no thanks" to being a baby Jebus breeder. Of course, the story doesn't cover what happened during labor. That's how his name came to be... While she was blowin' him out of her ass, she was screamin' "JESUS CHRIST JOSEPH AND MARY THIS FUCKING HURTS!!!" I have a feeling that she was having second thoughts then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Ummm.... I usually throw in a couple of these ---> when I'm jokin'. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Madam M: What I do dislike, is well thought out and planned patronization with some self-taught Christian love and patience. Fwee: You can take your super-secret-encoded-encrypted holier than thou attitude and stuff it up your self-righteous ass. Be aware, that there are some people here who turned away from the faith because they realized that they were becoming exactly like you. Yes, and honest, personal examination will take a good person away from the "faith". Stuff it! Forgive me Fwee. What you and Madam M. said reminded me of a certain Christian a couple days back. I imagined myself saying EXACTLY what you and Madam M. said here after reading it. I can not always express coherently what I see going on and what I read here... I laughed. I am a flaky wierdo I know. Sorry. hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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