Near Death Experiences

[KT45]

Perhaps, but my bias doesn't seem nearly as strong as yours, does it?

of course yours is just as strong as mine. As long as you can somehow relate it to your religion and it doesn't contradict with christianity your fine with it. For me, as long as the mythos can somehow relate to the natural world and it doesn't contradic the theories of nature I'm fine with it.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

You assume too much. I think there are elements of truth in all mythologies. No, I don't believe that leprechaun's really existed, but I do believe they were the best explanation someone could come up with for some unknown. However, some myths aren't as easy to destroy. However fantastical some of the elements of the gospel story might be, Jesus lived and He changed the world with his words.

humor me. Tell me a mythos you believe in that has absolutely nothing to do with your religion. Also just because you find truth in mythologies doesn't mean you don't have biases toward them. I find truth in your christian mythos in that it is people just trying to explain the world through their eyes. But I don't accept it in the least.

 

 

This is a meaningless question. It assumes I believe in the entirety of some other mythos and that biases me from accepting any other myth in it's entirety. I accept no myth in it's entirety, however, I am convinced of the truth of more of the elements of the Gospel than I am of any other seemingly mythological story. I see truth, to a lesser degree, in many other stories, such as the religion of Zoroaster, or the writings of Baha'u'llah, perhaps the last in the world's line of prophets.

[KT45]

This is a meaningless question. It assumes I believe in the entirety of some other mythos and that biases me from accepting any other myth in it's entirety. I accept no myth in it's entirety, however, I am convinced of the truth of more of the elements of the Gospel than I am of any other seemingly mythological story. I see truth, to a lesser degree, in many other stories, such as the religion of Zoroaster, or the writings of Baha'u'llah, perhaps the last in the world's line of prophets.

meaningless no. you said antlerman has strong biases toward any mythology. i said you do as well. I proved my point. Any mythos that presents itself to you try to tie it into your religion. Someone says ghost exist, you say they are demon which shows a bias toward your religion. Someone says Allah exist, you say no my god was talking to them. Any other mythos that you can't tie with your religion you show bias against and reject as something untrue.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

This is a meaningless question. It assumes I believe in the entirety of some other mythos and that biases me from accepting any other myth in it's entirety. I accept no myth in it's entirety, however, I am convinced of the truth of more of the elements of the Gospel than I am of any other seemingly mythological story. I see truth, to a lesser degree, in many other stories, such as the religion of Zoroaster, or the writings of Baha'u'llah, perhaps the last in the world's line of prophets.

meaningless no. you said antlerman has strong biases toward any mythology. i said you do as well. I proved my point. Any mythos that presents itself to you try to tie it into your religion. Someone says ghost exist, you say they are demon which shows a bias toward your religion. Someone says Allah exist, you say no my god was talking to them. Any other mythos that you can't tie with your religion you show bias against and reject as something untrue.

 

 

Not untrue, just differently defined and perhaps less fully understood.

[KT45]

Not untrue, just differently defined and perhaps less fully understood.

At any rate, you try to tie it in with the christian perception of reality while an atheist/deist/agnostic tries to explain it with his. I guess I don't really agree with someone accusing another of having bias when they have biases of there own.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

Not untrue, just differently defined and perhaps less fully understood.

At any rate, you try to tie it in with the christian perception of reality while an atheist/deist/agnostic tries to explain it with his. I guess I don't really agree with someone accusing another of having bias when they have biases of there own.

 

It ties to christian perception, as christianity usually offers a more complete understanding of the ideas presented.

[KT45]

It ties to christian perception, as christianity usually offers a more complete understanding of the ideas presented.

Opinionated and biased comment.

[All Gods Fail]

Man, does Jackson ever sound familiar...

 

 

And so your experience gives you a strong bias against anything with mythological elements. There is security in what you can know, I know. But there is a peace in the mystery that is indescribable.

 

Could he be a spoofer or troll from long ago?

 

 

Maybe it's just me.

[Guest Jackson Queens]

It ties to christian perception, as christianity usually offers a more complete understanding of the ideas presented.

Opinionated and biased comment.

 

 

What comments aren't opinionated and biased. Mathematecal equations? My bias is less pervasive than your's seems to be though.

[KT45]

What comments aren't opinionated and biased. Mathematecal equations? My bias is less pervasive than your's seems to be though.

I'm just saying that you call out people because they are biased when you are as well. How is my bias more pervasive than yours? What are my bias that you feel are pervasive?

[Guest Jackson Queens]

What comments aren't opinionated and biased. Mathematecal equations? My bias is less pervasive than your's seems to be though.

I'm just saying that you call out people because they are biased when you are as well. How is my bias more pervasive than yours? What are my bias that you feel are pervasive?

 

 

I was not the first to suggest a bias. I merely responded that my bias is more inclusive, where others is exclusive.

 

Man, does Jackson ever sound familiar...

 

 

And so your experience gives you a strong bias against anything with mythological elements. There is security in what you can know, I know. But there is a peace in the mystery that is indescribable.

 

Could he be a spoofer or troll from long ago?

 

 

Maybe it's just me.

 

 

What should I make of this?

[KT45]

What comments aren't opinionated and biased. Mathematecal equations? My bias is less pervasive than your's seems to be though.

I'm just saying that you call out people because they are biased when you are as well. How is my bias more pervasive than yours? What are my bias that you feel are pervasive?

 

 

I was not the first to suggest a bias. I merely responded that my bias is more inclusive, where others is exclusive.

Explain the bolded area please. Why are my biases stronger or more pervasive than yours?

[Guest Jackson Queens]

What comments aren't opinionated and biased. Mathematecal equations? My bias is less pervasive than your's seems to be though.

I'm just saying that you call out people because they are biased when you are as well. How is my bias more pervasive than yours? What are my bias that you feel are pervasive?

 

 

I was not the first to suggest a bias. I merely responded that my bias is more inclusive, where others is exclusive.

Explain the bolded area please. Why are my biases stronger or more pervasive than yours?

 

 

I am presuming that you are speaking from the empiricist's position, as an atheist or whatever other form of unbeliever you might be. Your bias defines the experiences of millions of humans, worthy as yourself, as complete insane bullstuff. I am not so biased that I have excluded much of human experience from my radar. Your bias tells you that there is no unknown, no mystery. How more complete and insidious could a bias be?

[KT45]

I am presuming that you are speaking from the empiricist's position,

Yes you presume quite a bit

as an atheist or whatever other form of unbeliever you might be. Your bias defines the experiences of millions of humans, worthy as yourself, as complete insane bullstuff.

When did I say that?

I am not so biased that I have excluded much of human experience from my radar.

neither do I

Your bias tells you that there is no unknown, no mystery.

We will never know everything. there is plenty of unknown and mystery. Stop making assumptions.

How more complete and insidious could a bias be?

Religious bias and skeptical bias can all be equally as strong and none is more worse than the other

[Antlerman]

However, you have to understand that the background experience I and many coming out of a literalist/fundamentalist background in Christiantiy object to is that mythology denies scientific reality in how they approach it.

 

And so your experience gives you a strong bias against anything with mythological elements.

This is not what I said. What I object to is when a mythological view of the world accuses valid science and rational thought of being “wrong”. To hear those with religious bias deny valid science because it conflicts with how they have chosen to frame the world without any rational basis whatsoever, to me is an offense to being human.

 

Being human is being both rational and non-rational. Legends and myths and lore are wonderful vehicles for the spirit to sore, but in a modern age where empirical sciences are also a valid and necessary language, mythology needs to learn how to coexist in this world.

 

There is security in what you can know, I know. But there is a peace in the mystery that is indescribable. None of us is the least bit secure. We're all mortal as a worm. We're all afraid to look into the darkness without any screen and search for the light like a newborn child. The people who don't deny this, and rather revel in it like a shower of ecstacy, are the people who inspire me to live like I have a spirit, like I am more than meat - but a beautiful creation whose purpose is to live as though his life is a wonderful gift.

I repeat what I said before that science in a valid and necessary language, but science does not speak the language of the human heart. It has nothing to do with it. That is not its intended purpose. That said, there are many other languages that humans use that speak to the heart, to the spirit. Mythology is a vehicle for this. So is art, poetry, dance, music.

 

I do not view humanity as just hunks of meat. I think if you are viewing the rest of the world who doesn’t use religious mythologies to express the human aspirations of the heart, you are being unjust in the assessment. People find many paths to this end, and it does not require religious myths. For those who it does, that’s great for them so long as they can balance reason and spirit without becoming a fruitcake who says the world’s scientists are all wrong because they read in the Bible the earth is in fact only 6000 years old, not the 4.5 billion years that all of science accepts. It is this that I am speaking of that I object to, and what offends me.

 

 

 

 

They offer endless excuses and rationalizations that defy human reason, that offend my spirit.

 

Many things defy human reason. Those things are the most beautiful things I know of.

Not things in nature. Understanding how a human being came into existence through the natural processes of evolution to me makes it far more marvelous and an inspirational wonder, than belief the reality of it was a god spitting into dirt and shaping a doll that he then breathed on. Yes, that image does have “messages” that have meaning, but please don’t try to usurp rationality and credible science when it comes to explaining “how” it happened. Myth has a different purpose than science.

 

 

Rather the approaching mythology as a way to communicate human truths, those truths that speak to how we live, they usurp reason with them and call them absolute fact! You may or may not understand or appreciate how negative an experience that has been to many of us. I hope at some point we will have a meeting of minds and see each other on this understanding.

 

Whenever you have an unshakable picture of how the world "must" be then anything that might contradict that can produce alot of anguish in your mind. Instead of deciding how everything must be, I choose to let the revelation flow. And flow it does, unstoppably and deliciously.

Did I say I have an unshakable picture of the world? That’s quite far from the truth about me. I actually find being rigid in any philosophy to be unhealthy. The core of my philosophy about life is “anything is possible”.

 

Now don’t jump up and down for joy that that means arguments can be now possibly valid for things like the actual existence of an all-knowing sky god. It’s all about degrees of probability. God does exist as a human creation, as a part of human language and culture, but this does not mean he exists in any manner whatsoever that can be measured reliably like anything else in our existence in this universe. To me when humans are gone, so will be God. However, if he works for those as a language that also allows them to function in the world with those who speak the language of the natural world, then I find no reason to object.

 

If for our minds to meet I must take what I consider a few steps backward then to me it isn't worth it. If you can read those words and not take offense, I'll appreciate it. I can only say it that way, because for me to somehow relent on this in anyway would be to compromise my spirit. I'm sure you can understand.

I hoping I am clarifying what I have been trying to convey. I think there is room for both languages. If you think there is not, then you are being just as blocked to experiencing life as you accuse those you perceive of as being nothing but rational. Again humans operate as both rational and non-rational beings. There is a time for science, there is a time for poetry.

[Thackerie]

... Also I'm constantly losing my keys, but I am very sharp in every other area of my life. I never forget phone numbers, names or faces. But I always forget where I put my keys. I have decided after many years of prayer that this is probably an act of God, to humble me as I attempt to rush about making my plans happen....There is a God. There is an afterlife. I am proof.

 

So god manifests itself by playing tricks with keys?????? Well, I guess it would be a break from the monotony of going around painting all those pictures of the blessed virgin on burnt toast and in mildew stains on old brick builldings, but I think it would be a much more powerful manifestation if god actually did something beneficial like, I don't know, maybe preventing children from dying of starvation or answering at least one prayer for a cure from a disease.

 

My flippant tone aside, I will admit that there are some mysterious things in the world, or at least things we don't understand. As a hypothetical, I'll go as far as saying that there may even be a god of some sort (though, to be honest, it seems to me that it may be solely a creative force and not interactive at all with humans on a daily basis). But, I don't see any reason to make the "leap of faith" (i.e., the abandonment of rational thinking) to conclude that the possibility of a god validates belief in the god described in any of the various versions of the christian bible -- or any other "holy" book.

[ricky18]

Or maby each religion has its own scenario of hapenings.Maby a Muslim wil meet Allah, A Jew Jehova, Budist Budah. How many of u are on Prodigits.co.uk. Its a mobile wapsite but is accessable through ur Computer Internet browser aswell. A lot of religious topics there and atheism.etc. You will have to click on the Wap browser emulator if u want to have full access to the site. A nice site.

[NotBlinded]

What comments aren't opinionated and biased.

Truth...

[Eric_PK]

If you are interested in this sort of thing, I'd suggest a subscription to the skeptical inquirer (http://www.csicop.org).

 

There is a subsection of population that is more susceptible to fantasy and suggestion than others. They are easy to hypnotize, etc.

 

The fact that many people report the same thing doesn't mean much. If you look back at the history of alien reports, the aliens are lots of different shapes and sizes. Then, one day, a particular depiction of a visitor shows up in popular culture, and that visitor now dominates the reports. In the US, at least.

[Mythra]

There is a wealth of scientific data and studies that seem to indicate that NDE's are a function of the brain, not a real external experience. Release of endorphins and random neural firing seem to be the primary cause of NDE's.

 

The following is from Keith Augustine's article "The Case Against Immortality" here

 

Some findings of NDE research are more consistent with physiological and psychological models. None of the patients who report NDEs are brain dead because brain death is irreversible (Beyerstein 46). First, NDEs only occur in one-third of all cases where there is a near-death crisis (Ring 194). Second, the details of NDEs depend on the individual's personal and cultural background (Ring 195). Third, physiological and psychological factors affect the content of the NDE. Noises, tunnels, bright lights, and other beings are more common in physiological conditions directly affecting the brain state, such as cardiac arrest and anesthesia, whereas euphoria, mystical feelings, life review, and positive transformation can occur when people simply believe they are going to die (Blackmore, "Dying" 44-45). Fourth, the core features of NDEs are found in drug-induced and naturally occurring hallucinations (Siegel 174). The OBE can be induced by the anesthetic ketamine (Blackmore, "Dying" 170). A tunnel experience is a common form of psychedelic hallucination (Siegel 175-6). All NDE stages have occurred in sequence under the influence of hashish (Blackmore, "Dying" 42-3). Fifth, a build-up of carbon dioxide in the brain will induce NDEs (Blackmore, "Dying" 53-4). Sixth, the panoramic life review closely resembles a form of temporal lobe epilepsy (206). There are even cases where epileptics have had OBEs or seen apparitions of dead friends and relatives during their seizures (206). Seventh, computer simulations of random neural firing based on eye-brain mapping of the visual cortex have produced the tunnel and light characteristic of NDEs (84). Eighth, the fact that naloxone--an opiate antagonist that inhibits the effects of endorphins on the brain--terminates near-death experiences provides some confirmation for the endorphin theory of NDEs:

 

Within a minute [after being injected with naloxone] he awoke in an agitated state, and later reported an NDE-like experience that apparently was interrupted by the naloxone, suggesting that the experience may have been mediated by opioid peptides (Saavedra-Aguilar and Gomez-Jeria 210-211).

Finally, NDEs can be induced by direct electrical stimulation of brain areas surrounding the Sylvian fissure in the right temporal lobe (Morse 104).

 

Other findings are flatly inconsistent with survival. The tunnels described in NDEs vary considerably in form. If NDEs reflected an external reality, one would expect consistency in the form of tunnel experiences reported (Blackmore, "Dying" 77). Furthermore, NDE cases have been reported where the patient has identified the "beings of light" as the medical staff making resuscitation attempts (227). Finally, the fact that "children are more likely to see living friends than those who have died" in NDEs strongly suggests that NDEs are not experiences of an external afterlife reality (Blackmore, "Near-Death" 36).