Kuroikaze Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 I agree with Legion here, Scott. Not many people are capable of being honest with themselves... and I congradulate you for doing it. Now I know that you're afraid to deny Jesus, etc... as he threatens to eternally punish you for something as simple and honest as doubt. But I'll submit that you don't really have a choice here. You can't honestly CHOOSE what you will or will not believe- all you can do is look at the evidence and your feelings on the matter, and form an honest opinion. Trying to convince yourself that you believe something is NOT the same thing as believing it. So if you can't intellectually justify your belief in Jesus... then how can you justify it at all? It's not that I'm afraid to deny Jesus. In my spirit I feel love for Him. You're right, I can't, at least not right now, intellectually justify my belief in Jesus. That's what I meant when I said my spirit believes in Him. I have felt His presence so much in my life. I have felt His presence around me, and through the testimonies of others. Although my mind doubts it and wonders if it's true, my spirit believes it with no trouble. This is the most open and honest I've seen you act since you have been here. I appreciate it your honesty even if I don't agree with your conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 Scott ain't for real. Too bad. I was looking to bring out the blowtorch and lead pipe on this fundie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostOrFound Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 None of us knows what is truly going on inside Scott's head but, as one who 'believed' at an early age (raised in strong evangelical, conservative Southern Baptist home - Jerry Falwell variet) and 'called to preach' at the age of 11, who carried a Bible with me everywhere and witnessed to anyone and everyone I could; received a Bachelor's degree in Christian Ed at a fundamentalist Bible College (Piedmont Bible College in Winston-Salem, NC) - preached for a couple of years - and then began having questions (so I went to Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis, TN to try to get the answers I was unable to obtain on my own)..... Geez, I can ramble on at times! LOL Anyway, my point: I've been where Scott "appears" to be... many "head" questions that had very weak answers but my "heart" still said "just believe - it is the evil one who is trying to deceive you". It is a gut-wrenching place to be in life. Even after making the transition in my head and then my heart, I continued to "pretend" for what I thought was the sake of my parents, wife and children. Scott, just a word of caution and encouragement: Listen to the "reason" within your head and understand that the heart is just emotions built over a lifetime of indoctrination. You've heard it before but it bears hearing again: As you ask "questions", use the same reasoning that causes you to reject all the other 'gods' and apply that 'reasoning' to Yahweh/Jesus/HolySpirit. Use the same reasoning as you look at the "miracles"; use the same reasoning as you look at HOW the Bible (66 book compilation) came to be "The Book" to begin with. Take a close look at the "explanations" theologians and yourself use to explain away the obvious, blatant contradictions within the text. Ask yourself if you would accept these "explanations" if they were given to explain the Koran or any other "Holy Book". Come on man! Think!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 Please, do grow up, you arrogant peice of worthless shit. Welcome to the low road!!! BTW, congratulations on backing down from dogma. It suits you much better. Welcome to humanity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piprus Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 It's not that I'm afraid to deny Jesus. In my spirit I feel love for Him. You're right, I can't, at least not right now, intellectually justify my belief in Jesus. That's what I meant when I said my spirit believes in Him. I have felt His presence so much in my life. I have felt His presence around me, and through the testimonies of others. Although my mind doubts it and wonders if it's true, my spirit believes it with no trouble. Scott, if what you say is true, you are in conflict with yourself, and you don't know how to resolve it. Your first line...you've said in previous posts how you have unquestioningly accepted the complete NT story, and threatened us with the consequences of our unbelief with quote-mined verses about those "last days", mostly focusing on Revelation. Well, Scott, Revelation is an old, old story. It's the ancient Persian eschatology, one that came from zoroastrianism, a religion of Persia that was prevalent before Judaism, and long before messianic Essianism and christianity were ever thought about. It was not written by "St. John", but was cut and pasted into the canon with christianized references penciled in. Some bishops didn't even want that thing to be canonized. Revelation is hooey. It will not come to pass. There will not be a "second coming" because there was never a first one. There will not be a judgement day; the only judgement day will that of your own self-evaluation of yourself. According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, that is our fate. Scott, I can't comment on your perception of what your "spirit" is. I've never believed in spirits myself, except perhaps the 80 proof variety. What do you mean your spirit believes, but your intellect doesn't...that doesn't connect with me. But it does speak of your internal conflict. Did you actually feel his presence, or more to the reality of it, did you want to feel something so much that you convinced yourself in your own mind, because you wanted to believe in this hero godman so much? If so, you wouldn't be alone. Jesus is real, Scott...but only in the same sense that Hercules is real. He is a myth. His life and works in the NT follow the same characteristics as other godman characters of ancient mythology. But like those others, Krishna, Attis, Adonis, Horus, and more, he was made up, just like Donald Duck. You've made references to a bit of agnosticism within yourself. Good. Very good. There isn't a thing wrong with saying "I don't know" while you investigate. But heretofore you've been, or at least tried to be, a hardliner, and you've been laid to waste every time, and resort to regurgitating those arcane babble quotes as your last defense. It doesn't work. Nick5 and I have both suggested JesusNeverExisted, I've offered you AskWhy. I doubt you even bothered to investigate. There is also Truth Be Known by Acharya S. Just for starters. Are you ready to try it now? Go ahead. If your god is real, do you think he would NOT want you to use your head, would NOT want you to consider alternatives to the fundiexian way? Is it that he and his message are so weak that they could not stand up to scrutiny? After all, didn't jesus supposedly say of his church, "the gates of hell will not prevail against it"? Should be no problem then, right? “Blasphemy? No, it is not blasphemy. If God is as vast as that, he is above blasphemy; if He is as little as that, He is beneath it.” (Mark Twain) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 Dates? The Bible doesn't give any dates. We don't even know the "date" that Jesus will return? We can know the times though. Why would I run away? I have no cause. I'll give you the prophecies in my next post. I know what is prophesied, I just need to look up the actual Scriptures. Well, this thread is starting to look a lot like the "hell" thread over the "Lions Den" but I thought I'd stop by to see if there had been any progress made. Looks like your attention is split between them and seeing how it's going on the other thread you're probably not going to bring too much to the table (even as much as the thing I copied from the one website it would seem...albeit in your own words since that's what you seem to be saying you're going to provide). If I'm mis-reading things I apologize. Anyhow, I'll be gone through Wednesday so that should give you a few days to pull it all together since I don't think I'll have time while I'm away to check the site or anything. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 iskerbibel, I do fear God, in the sense that I know Him, His glory, and His Power through His Word. LostOrFound, that's good advice, and thank you; but I believe in Jesus even without rational evidence to prove it, although I have been studying. Antlerman, I'm still a Christian. Piprus, when I said my spirit believes, a better word would be my heart. Only it goes deeper, to the very core of my being. I actually did feel His presence. Sometimes when I really wanted to, I didn't. So, just because I really want to feel or believe something, it doesn't cut it with me unless I actually feel or believe it. So yes, I actually felt Him. God does wants us to use our heads. There are educated, Christian apologists out there. I'm reading a book by a man named "William Lane Craig" and the book is called "Reasonable Faith/Christian Truth and Apologetics". So there are people out there who know Christianity is true bythe Holy Spirit, then show Christianity to be true intellectually. Oh yeah, by the way, this is Scott lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 William Lane Craig starts from the premise that Christianity it true to begin with, that's not objective. Starting from the stance of "I don't know, let's look at the evidence" is not what he does. He also uses the Bible to prove facts and events of Jesus, and also uses the Bible to prove the Bible is true, that's called, "begging the question." If you want to know if Christianity is true, if you really want to examine Christianity in an objective, non-biased manner, why don't you read books by those who don't have an agenda to prove it true? That's the only way to know if it really is true. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 William Lane Craig starts from the premise that Christianity it true to begin with, that's not objective. Starting from the stance of "I don't know, let's look at the evidence" is not what he does. He also uses the Bible to prove facts and events of Jesus, and also uses the Bible to prove the Bible is true, that's called, "begging the question." If you want to know if Christianity is true, if you really want to examine Christianity in an objective, non-biased manner, why don't you read books by those who don't have an agenda to prove it true? That's the only way to know if it really is true. Taph His book is written for Christians to help us defend the faith. As he also pointed out, Christians know Christianity is true by the witness of the Holy Spirit, and the book teaches Christians how to show Christianity to be true with apologetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick5 Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 Christians know Christianity is true by the witness of the Holy Spirit Wishful thinking, similarly, muslims KNOW islam is true, jews KNOW judaism is true, and Scientologists KNOW xenu is real. You don't know anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 His book is written for Christians to help us defend the faith. As he also pointed out, Christians know Christianity is true by the witness of the Holy Spirit, and the book teaches Christians how to show Christianity to be true with apologetics. When the bible says the scripture is true, what scripture was it refering to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 His book is written for Christians to help us defend the faith. As he also pointed out, Christians know Christianity is true by the witness of the Holy Spirit, and the book teaches Christians how to show Christianity to be true with apologetics. When the bible says the scripture is true, what scripture was it refering to? What does the question have to do with the quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 His book is written for Christians to help us defend the faith. As he also pointed out, Christians know Christianity is true by the witness of the Holy Spirit, and the book teaches Christians how to show Christianity to be true with apologetics. When the bible says the scripture is true, what scripture was it refering to? What does the question have to do with the quote? Well you are talking about his 'book' in your quote and that it is true. I assume the book is the scripture. So again, when the bible says that the scripture is true, what scripture is it refering to? It's not the book we have now because that book didn't exist then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 I was talking about a book called "Reasonable Faith/Christian Truth And Apologetics" by William Lane Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 I was talking about a book called "Reasonable Faith/Christian Truth And Apologetics" by William Lane Craig. Well I feel like an ass.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunk Bishop Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 Here's Craig's vita Let's see: Wheaton, Trinity Evangelical... no wait, this guy must have an intellectually honest agenda!!! I agree with Taph, that Craig starts with the premise that Christian theism is correct... any argument is only as good as its first premise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostOrFound Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 Here's Craig's vita Let's see: Wheaton, Trinity Evangelical... no wait, this guy must have an intellectually honest agenda!!! I agree with Taph, that Craig starts with the premise that Christian theism is correct... any argument is only as good as its first premise. And, Scott?... he's neither intellectual or honest. Look how he's "playing" all over the board. He contradicts himself constantly and outright denies verifiable evidence in favor or make believe agenda. If he is actually a "christian", he doesn't place much importance on "honesty" as he works under disguises and a constantly moving target. I believe (I have faith, LOL) he is a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 How am I not honest? Give me an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostOrFound Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 Were you being honest when you said: "The more I think about it, the more I see that I have been fed Christianity all my life. I can find no valid reasons to believe in it, aside from what I feel was God in my life and that I was raised to believe in it. I guess I would call myself a spiritual Christian but a mental agnostic. In my spirit I believe that Christianity is true, but I have no facts or intellectual evidence to back up my claims. I am not saying that I am denying Jesus, the Bible, or the existence of God in anyway. I am saying that I need more intellectual proof for the claims of the Bible. I hope that describes what I'm trying to say. " If so, it would seem that now you are saying that you do NOT need intellectual proof for the claims of the Bible because you believe the claims because of some "feeling" you have of a holy spirit. You can't have it both ways, Scott. Choose intellect and reason or feelings - get off the fence. By the way, it is written in the book you claim to believe that "the heart is deceitful above all things" - the "heart", most apologists acknowledge to be the seat of the emotions - it is the "feelings" that will deceive you, not intellectual reasoning through the method of honest scientific inquiry (and remember, to be intellectually honest you must not begin with a preconceived position of knowledge but from one of lacking knowledge but searching for the truth). Think about it awhile - the truth will, indeed, set you free. His book is written for Christians to help us defend the faith. As he also pointed out, Christians know Christianity is true by the witness of the Holy Spirit, and the book teaches Christians how to show Christianity to be true with apologetics. When the bible says the scripture is true, what scripture was it refering to? What does the question have to do with the quote? It may not have anything to do with that quote but it is a valid question, nonetheless. Paul did say that "all scripture is given by inspiration..." (a better rendering would be "all THAT IS scripture...") So, when that was written, how does anyone - ANYONE - know what "scripture" he was talking about? Surely you know that the "church" argued - and continues to argue - over which books/letters should be considered inspired and a part of the accepted Canon. I am constantly amazed that believers just gloss over this very important flaw in their entire system! But then, most churches totally ignore the passages instructing that women not speak in the assembly and that they not wear gold, braided hair, etc etc. They ignore the teachings regarding divorce. They ignore the teachings regarding church discipline... and on and on and on.... Pick the parts you like and skip the parts you don't and then have the gall to say it's all from god and that he is the same yesterday, today and forever. Intellectually honest? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 I didn't contadict myself. While I do seek intelectual confirmation of my belief, I do believe it to be true anyway. When I said I didn't know, yet I believe, I wasn't lying. I told the truth. My head wonders, but my heart knows. The heart is as you mentioned, deceitful, unless you have Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 Nick, you are guilty of the same pride as Satan. You think God is not worthy of you? He's not worthy of your presence? Give me a friggin' break! God is far beyond you, and he has every reason to crush you, just like he does everyone else. Nevertheless, He grants us a choice to follow Jesus, or suffer His judgment in Hell. His judgment is righteous. You say He is not worthy of you, then you say He is arrogant? Please, do grow up, you arrogant peice of worthless shit. You are calling Nick prideful and arrogant but yet, in the same paragraph you claim to know the intentions of God because you read a book? Oh man......I wish you could see the error of your ways. You sit here and tell us all about God's qualities, desires and intentions and then turn around and call others arrogant. Yours is the ultimate arrogance because of these claims you make towards what God is. How dare you? Yours is the ultimate pride because you claim your understanding is the only one God desires. Again, how dare you? Edit: Ohhhh....I see you are peeking out of your box now. Usually I post before I finish a thread and this happens sometimes. Carry on then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostOrFound Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 I didn't contadict myself. While I do seek intelectual confirmation of my belief, I do believe it to be true anyway. When I said I didn't know, yet I believe, I wasn't lying. I told the truth. My head wonders, but my heart knows. The heart is as you mentioned, deceitful, unless you have Jesus. Ahhh... self-deception; quite the opiate isn't it? "unless you have Jesus"... so, you honestly think that because you 'think' you 'have Jesus' you cannot ever be wrong about anything? That's pretty heady stuff, my young friend. And, if that is not what you are saying - or think/believe - and you can indeed be wrong about something then your entire premise of "unless you have Jesus" goes right out the window. I don't expect that you can see this, at this point in your maturation, but the idea has now been planted in your mind. You will consider other possibilities as you mature. What you do with the "new ideas" will determine your direction. So... what about all the "scripture" that you choose to ignore? You didn't address any of that. Also, how do YOU DECIDE what is and is not scripture. The 66 books you now have were chosen to be scripture by mere mortals - many of whom were not all that terribly moral driven individuals. You do know that little factoid don't you? What or why do you accept what they chose to go into "the book"? Why not read ALL the different letters and books available and decide for yourself - of course, with the help of the Holy Spirit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 My head wonders, but my heart knows. The heart is as you mentioned, deceitful, unless you have Jesus. So you subscribe to the idea that we are inherently evil as people then? You have to if you believe that we can be true to ourselves unless we have an outside entity telling us what to do. And that's what you're saying when you say the heart is deceitful unless you have Jesus. You're also saying that we can't inherently make any positive or good decisions. I'd suggest clarifying your language, or thinking a little bit more about what you're saying here. Because that's an awful dangerous mode of thought to say that we can't be good or right without an outside force telling us what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Notblindedbytheblight, what do you mean my understanding? The Bible tells us everything about God we need to know. It tells us who He is and what He has done and can do for us. LostOrFound, I'm not saying I can never be wrong. What I am saying is that because we have Jesus, our hearts have been cleansed from unrighteousness. Eponymic, when you were a little child, did you need your parents to teach you right from wrong? Of course. God is our Father in Heaven. No one on this earth is good; only He is good. So yes, I would say that we need Him to tell us what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Notblindedbytheblight, what do you mean my understanding? The Bible tells us everything about God we need to know. It tells us who He is and what He has done and can do for us. ... I think it's very, very sad that anyone would so restrict their thinking as to imagine that everything one needs to know, or should know, about god was only that which was written by ancient tribesmen in a culture vastly different from ours and that which was compiled over several centuries by men with political agendas. This restricts understanding and growth and actually makes an idol of the bible. God, if such exists, is surely bigger than that! An excellent book which explores this topic is Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by Bishop John Shelby Spong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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