NotBlinded Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Notblindedbytheblight, what do you mean my understanding? The Bible tells us everything about God we need to know. It tells us who He is and what He has done and can do for us. What I mean is that you are not open to any other religious understandings having access to God. I have said many times that God doesn't belong to a specific understanding. The understanding belongs to people. You can't seem to understand that when you claim to have the one Trueunderstanding, that belief causes other's understandings to be wrong. You (and others that think like you) are contrary to what Jesus was teaching. Your understanding is exclusive. Jesus was preaching inclusiveness. Christianity started by people trying to understand what Jesus taught and then putting what they believed into the story. Jesus was against institutions, so why did people (later known as Christians) create an institution to Jesus? Can you understand what I am saying? The bible is not the only book writen about God. The bible tells you one understanding of what people thought God might be like. Just one...there are many more. Do you always take one understanding of everything in life and just accept it as the pure truth? Or, do you get someone else's perspective and then someone else's and then take what they have told you to get a better understanding? Jesus did, IMO, have a great understanding, but he wasn't the only one. You are living in a box that was created by the institution known as Christianity (and some Judaistic thoughts). Why not include more religious understandings into your thoughts to gain a better insight into what other people thought God might be like? Why do you just take one and cling to it so despartely when there is a world of insights you can gain by looking at other's views? It won't make your belief wrong by understanding that other people saw God in a different way. Understanding doesn't create a right or wrong group. The only thing that is wrong is when people start thinking that they have the ONLY understanding. Exclusive thought divides. When Jesus is said to have said that he came to divide, this is what was meant. He knew that the ones that claimed to have the truth exclusively would be against what he was saying. They were in their own little box where everyone else was excluded. He was trying to get people to understand what he was saying...he didn't want for them to jump from one box to another, IMO. He was a teacher as was Buddha and many others. The problem is that many of his teachings were corrupted by lack of understanding or by those that had much to gain. One has to weed through the words in order to find insight. But, it is there. You have to understand that God is not what the story depicts. The story was created by people to express what they thought about God. The words are symbols when speaking about God. They can point you to the feeling of God, but God cannot be understood within our head. It's like trying to understand infinity. We simply cannot do that and that has to be accepted in order to gain any insights at all into the unknowable. Don't mistake the story for God. To put it another way...don't mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself. When God is seen as taking sides, this is the thoughts of people that saw themselves as being deserving of God's help because they felt they were righteous and being subjagated. There were many people depicted in the bible that were not righteous as judged by today's standards. God never changes, but the story must in order to still be usefull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Alright, Notblindedbytheblight, that was a good post. I have nothing against learning about other religions. Previously I have been learning about other Christian denominations to learn which one I should be a part of, but in the past I have studied other religions, and I will do it in the future, also. I'm not gonna preach a sermon here, but this is what I think. Jesus was not like any other teacher. He made claims that no one else could make. He had authority. "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:18-19. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6. He said that He Himself was the way to God, and He didn't mention any teacher other than Himself. There are some things in the Bible, like this verse, that says Jesus wasn't just a good teacher. In other verses He claims to be God Himself. He says that He has all power. How do you explain this? That's why Christians evangelize and witness. Because the Bible, which we believe in, says that Jesus Christ is the only way to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Scott, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:18-19. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6. Here is my take: 1. Social Science/textual criticism approach: Is it simply possible the gospel writers put the words in Jesus' mouth? In sitting down and writing the Gospel, of course the Gospel writer believed his Messiah to be the only Truth. 2. Dogmatic approach, using Christian's own theology: Scott if you believe Jesus is God, of course it is only through God one can reach God! Or else through what? Unless.....you are saying Jesus is not God, but as a medium to God, but lesser than God..... 3. Spiritual approach: that when man loves and acts with his conscience, Jesus is in his heart whether he is Christian or not, so there is no contradiction. The verses don't warrant me into believing exclusivity of Christianity. I would say for one to look at them at a deeper level, the frame of Christian exclusivity is a test, a test of how you can love one another in balancing your belief in its exclusivity and your love: Jesus said the 2nd greatest command is to love one another, not to pick the difference over one another. Scott, I do not deny Jesus. I believe if you believe Jesus as the Messiah, you will reach God. ----- I know there would be a member Scott, the least I would know is "Scott" is a fundamental evangelical Christian. Members who know me here: Scott is not my twin, nor is he my evil twin. Funny Scott and Scotter are actually polemical in the theological positions to each other. It would be interesting to do a one-on-one Arena debate with Scott. Scott are your interested? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 What specifically would we debate about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Thank you for your time and reply, Scott. Scott, I like for you, if possible, try to convince me if Jesus is the Messiah outside of the Bible; if you have to use the Bible/NT, fine. And I shall look at your points and tell you what I think. I do not intend to do a counter position that Jesus is not the Messiah; but I shall tell you my feedback on your apologetic debate points that Jesus is the Messiah, which is your foundation of belief. If you like this debate, we can discuss the technicality details like wordings, response time frames, later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Alright, I'm up for that. I will probably have to use some of the Old Testament prophesies relating to Jesus Christ in the New Testament; but ok. Whenever you're ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:18-19. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6. He said that He Himself was the way to God, and He didn't mention any teacher other than Himself. There are some things in the Bible, like this verse, that says Jesus wasn't just a good teacher. In other verses He claims to be God Himself. He says that He has all power. How do you explain this? That's why Christians evangelize and witness. Because the Bible, which we believe in, says that Jesus Christ is the only way to God. You have to take into account who he was speaking to and the era in which he lived. People didn't have much access to any written documents. Most everything, if not all, was word of mouth. Travel took a very long time. It would have been hard for any of them to know who Buddah was although Jesus may have. Many sayings are very similar. Jesus wasn't going to tell them to study what the Buddah said because they had no Buddhist teachers in the area that I know of...I could be wrong though. The messages wouldn't have been understood because of the cultural differences anyway. Jesus taught many of the same understandings in his own way in a way that would relate to the people he was addressing. There were teachers and prophets in the old testament that did have insight into what God meant, but of course, they were dead by the time Jesus arrived and the religion, to the ones he was addressing, had become filled with fundamentalists that didn't understand the messages. Just as what has happened with fundamentalists of the Christian religion today. Do we need a new teacher? I think a new one wouldn't hurt (for those that need or desire it)! Many, many people can be spritual without any belief in God whatsoever. Many people have no desire to be spiritual and can live a perfectly moral life. Also, we don't really know how much of what Jesus said was actually recorded the way he said it or intended it without outside interpretation. I think the Gospel of Thomas lacks considerable bias from the author. It seems to be just a record of what Jesus said without the author trying to convey what he thought Jesus meant. With this all said...why wouldn't Jesus say that he was the only way to a group of people that had no other teachers available other than the ones that taught that the law was the way to God - the fundamentalists? There are many times that it appears that Jesus was trying to even get the Jews to understand their own religion better. If that was the case, he was the only one that could have shown them. If he were to appear today, IMO, he would find the very same resitance in the Christian religion now as he found from Judaism then. Many did not understand then and even more did not understand later when the bible was compiled and edited. I don't think that Jesus ever claimed to be God. He claimed to be the Son of God, but he never claims to be the only one. That verse he references is here: Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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