How Is Christianity Reasonable

[Taphophilia]

Actually, the Catholic church stole their texts from some of the few true Christian churches they could catch, before they went underground. Non-Catholic "reformationist" scribes, like John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and the two men working for King James (and their team of references and Hebrew translators) brought us the real Bible, translated from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The Catholic version is taken from the Latin Vulgate translation, which obviously would have misinterpreted some Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts out of context. The Catholic church tried to stop the direct translations of the original books of the Bible that could be historically verified (OT&NT), because it eliminated the Catholic tradition sources (like the Apocrypha, deuterocanonical texts, Gnostic gospels, and pseudepigraphical texts). "Put that in your pipe and smoke it", Deva

 

-D-

 

HRH King James had his bible commissioned because he didn't like the very popular Geneva Bible with it's pesky margin notes blathering on about giving power to the common people, with the specific instructions to highlight the soverngty of kings. The Geneva Bible was the one the Pilgims brought to the new world.

 

The English Bible wasn't necessarily forbidden, it just didn't exist. Though portions of the Bible had been translated into English in earlier centuries. In the fourteenth century, John Wycliffe, arranged for, and likely assisted in the first complete English translation of the Bible. No printing presses existed, therefore these Wycliffe Bibles were handcopied, requiring months to reproduce just one Bible. Knowledge of the original biblical languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek was scarce in England at the time, they had to be translated from Latin.

 

It wasn't until after Wycliffe’s death in 1384, the reaction against these first English Bibles became intense. The handcopied English Bibles, as well as Wycliffe’s writings, were declared heretical, confiscated, and destroyed. In 1401 King Henry IV (not the Catholic Church) enacted a statute called the "De Heretico Comburendo," which officially forbid English scripture and made "heresy" a secular crime, punishable by being burned at the stake.

 

The reason why the Bible wasn't translated from Greek, wasn't due to persection. The fall of Constantinople in 1453, to the Turks, dispersed Greek refugees and their Greek biblical texts across Western Europe. This, along with the influence of Italian Humanism, returned the knowledge of Greek language to Western Europe after being absent for nearly one thousand years. By this time Gutenburg had developed his printing press.

 

Erasmus of Rotterdam, influenced by these historical events, published the first printed Greek New Testament in 1516 and then four other editions in 1519, 1522, 1527, and 1535.

 

Luther utilized Erasmus’s second edition of 1519 to produce the first printed German New Testament, in September of 1522.

 

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

[OldApostate]

BTW, in reply to the question about my age, I'm 22, going on 23... and my dad was a sergeant in the 1st cavalry, who spent 2 1/2 tours in Viet-Nam, during the war... fighting, and risking his life for the very freedoms people like you abuse and take from law-abiding citizens, until the entire nation becomes your own Nazi Shangri-La!

 

Wow. Time to up the meds there, Sparky. Or maybe take less of them.

 

However, I do think that "Nazi Shangri-La" is an awesome band name. I'd do vocals, but no one wants to hear me sing.

 

Seriously Rev, I don't think much of your points to begin with, but when you finish up with this kind of stuff, you just undermine any minute modicum of sense you might actually be making. I see from one of your later posts that you do know that you're ill. It's clear to me, though, that you can't tell when it's showing. It's showing. I'd stop trying to debate until you get it under control, or choose a less chaotic forum. You're not doing yourself or your faith any favors.

[Evolution_beyond]

How about S.T.D.'s, for just one example?

 

By that logic heterosexual intercourse would also be wrong. STDs are a risk from any sexual contact.

 

If that's true, then urinating in a pool would be okay. Is it?

 

Ok, disadvantageous and non-consensual. Urinating in a pool is non-consensual - those people in the pool wouldn't appreciate being in a pool full of piss - so it is wrong.

 

Nothing wrong with that, as long as it keeps you and your wife in love with each-other. It can even be good for both of you... however, it would be wise if you didn't take it too far... I hope, for your sake, you don't...

 

Ok. Thanks. That's at least one thing I don't have to get annoyed with you for.

 

The Bible also says that, as long as you are not breaking one of God's rules by your own understanding, and you're okay with it, what you do personally behind closed doors is your business.

 

Pity God can't be as understanding about homosexuals.

 

In some way, isn't excessive masturbation harmful to yourself? And, if so, isn't it safer to just "steer clear" of it?

 

Who said anything about excessive masturbation? I don't exactly make myself sore through over use. I don't think once a day is excessive at all. And it makes sure I don't get so horny I can't concentrate on anything.

 

And I don't agree with the logic that if something can be harmful if it is done to excess or if one is particularly foolish - that therefore it should be avoided altogether.

 

I don't agree with this "never take a risk, not ever" philosophy. Life is full of risks, every time you walk down the street. Life is for living, not for playing it safe.

 

If we're all so dominating and pushy, wouldn't you like that?

 

She didn't dominate me in the ways that I like (most noticeably, sexually) - but she dominated me in ways that I did not like, that I thought were equivalent to abuse.

 

Consenting, sexual domination - and mental abuse are too very different things.

 

Here's a question: if you try not to sin, do you want to sin? Do you get all upset when you can't? Isn't that an addictive behavior characteristic? Doesn't Christianity teach that you should do your best to get away from everything that makes you turn to your addictions?

 

If you try not to pray, do you want to pray? Do you get all upset when you can't? Isn't that an addictive behaviour?

 

You see, you can apply that reasoning to anything, whether good or bad. It doesn't prove that something is bad. When something is bad and you can't stop doing - then we say it is addictive. When something is good we don't say that it is addictive if you can't stop doing it - otherwise eating and sleeping would be addictions.

 

Besides, there is an important difference between not being able to stop doing something and not wanting to stop doing something. Could you go for a week without listening to any music? Does that make you addicted to music?

 

Just because it's more fun doesn't make it more right. Many teen-aged prostitutes claim that what they do is more fun for them than living by their parents' rules... not that I compare you to a teen-aged prostitute, or a drug addict.

 

-D-

 

I thought you already did compare me to a drug-addict with the previous argument (if you don't want to stop doing something, then it is addictive)

[Grandpa Harley]

I remember being 23... I was a lot older then and knew so much more...

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW, child, I know more of sacrifice and duty than you do, and putting my neck on the line for what I know to be right, when I was younger than you... and there are people even now who'd skin me alive if they could find me... so never presume anything you foul little cocksucker of god...

 

I notice you're not fighting the good fight for Bush and Country... after all, you claim Vietnam was for Liberty, when it was really just JFK indulging his S.E. Asian wet dream...

[Deva]

"According to whose standards? How developed an understanding of Christianity do I need to be saved? Being raised in it and reading it isn't sufficient?"

 

You make the decision based on what you know. Then, you learn what you can about the doctrine of God's Word as you go. The great thing about true Christianity is that it's a constant learning experience. If you get confused, you turn to other Christians for help, in conjunction with the Bible; not just their thoughts alone.

 

Maybe my whole problem is that I don't have a husband. I was taught that he was supposed to answer the wife's spiritual-type questions. Moving that aside, Christianity just doesn't make sense.

 

IF you were raised in a scripturally Christian home, you should know all you need to know to get you started. If not, you might have a problem understanding it. You have to understand what you read. Just reading the words is about as successful as an unbelieved mantra to a hindu in revealing truth.

 

If I were you, Rev, I wouldn't start drawing comparisons between Hindu mantras and understanding the Bible. I sense that your knowledge of Hinduism is not great.

 

I grew in my understanding since I was twelve. Nobody can be expected to easily unlearn what they have seen for themselves is the truth.

 

If its the truth, why should they even try to unlearn it?

 

Actually, the Catholic church stole their texts from some of the few true Christian churches they could catch, before they went underground.

 

Please cite your source for this statement.

[Grandpa Harley]

"I sense that your knowledge of Hinduism is not great. "

 

I sense you're being kind, Deva... ;D

[SWIM]

"LOL the word "LET" caught my eye. He didn't "let" his blood get spilled, he got pwned! He had no choice at all, he was arrested, beaten, then crucified, and there was not jack shit he could do about it. He didn't *let* any damn thing happen..." -Michael

 

Even if He weren't God the Son, He could have gotten out of the situation at any time. He could have said He was wrong, and faded into obscurity. He could have slipped away into a foreign country. He could have run away at the Garden of Gethsemane; or, since they looked the same, He could have told the soldiers that one of His disciples was He Himself, allowing Him to get away. There were any number of ways. However, He didn't even try to resist.

 

Somehow, I don't think saying "opps, my bad!" would have worked when someone gets the death sentence. It does not work today, and it likely would not work then either. There is no "slipping away" when you are in custody. And chances are good, in reality, the garden would have been surrounded. And it's only hear-say that he "knew the cops were coming". There was no way for him to get out of it, so him and his followers put the *spin* on it to make it look like it was his plan all along.

[Taphophilia]

On that note, I suppose you're one of those hippee Nazis, who was too cowardly to fight for his country and people; and then, after the war is over and he is safe, abuses our freedoms - freedoms people like my dad fought for, - and tries to use fascist/socialist control to silence your opposition... typical!

 

BTW, in reply to the question about my age, I'm 22, going on 23... and my dad was a sergeant in the 1st cavalry, who spent 2 1/2 tours in Viet-Nam, during the war... fighting, and risking his life for the very freedoms people like you abuse and take from law-abiding citizens, until the entire nation becomes your own Nazi Shangri-La!

 

Freedom means that people have the freedom to do things not everyone necessarily likes or agrees with. If everyone did everything agreeable to everyone else, it wouldn't be freedom. See how that works.

 

You are the one who wants to censor and control the freedoms of others by insisting that others behave in the ways that you agree with and who dreams of a Nazi like state utopia (please learn about Nazi's before you post). It is you who is the fascist, not us.

 

Fascist and socialist are not the same thing, please use a dictionary before you post,

 

Thanks.

[Ouroboros]

In some way, isn't excessive masturbation harmful to yourself? And, if so, isn't it safer to just "steer clear" of it?

I'm sorry but that doesn't follow at all.

 

To follow the same logic you just displayed:

 

Oxygen is dangerous in excess. Hence you stop breathing. (divers know about hyperoxia)

 

Water in excess is dangerous. Hence stop drinking water. (explained below)

 

Staying awake for 2-3 weeks straight can kill you too, so go back to bed and sleep the rest of your life. (no, seriously, long term sleep deprivation is dangerous)

 

Food in excess... you get the picture?

 

 

Do you know what hyperhydration is? It is also called water poisoning. It is the situation when someone drank too much water and it in effect becomes a toxin to your body. Biologically we need water, but we need it in moderation. We can't drink to little, but we sure can't drink too much either. At some marathons people collapse because they drank too much water and didn't get enough electrolytes. It dilutes the blood. So again, with your reasoning, the only safe solution is to stop drinking water all together.

 

 

Insane reasoning, isn't it?

 

You see, it's faulty logic. Just because doing something too much is bad, it doesn't necessarily mean that doing it at all is also bad. Only people who see the world in black-n-white make these mistakes. You need to understand the world is based on balance of things.

[GraphicsGuy]

You seem to forget that you're not the only one who suffers... or the only one with an uncontrollable mental illness... others struggle, in some cases even worse than you do and did, but they don't give up.

 

Assumptive, aren't you?

 

"You seem to forget..."

 

I never once said nor implied any such thing as you've assumed. I said, "shit happens" and you know I meant that it happens to everybody. Some people worse than others. And you imply that I just "gave up."

 

Smug little asswipe. "Giving up" would have been me offing myself like I wanted to do so often. "Giving up" would have been likely had I only lived as a Xian for a month or so. I was a Xian longer than you've been alive.

[Ouroboros]

I was a Xian longer than you've been alive.

Oh, I love that!

 

Quite interesting that many of us here actually have been Christians for 20-30 years. So it wasn't something we did overnight, or just woke up one morning saying "Hey, lets become an apostate!" It didn't come easy, and for many it didn't come voluntary at all, but a result of a process where many of us wanted to know and understand the depths of our religion, and it led us away from it instead. The only "True" Christian is the one that doesn't ask and doesn't research. Ignorance is a must to keep the faith. Knowledge kills faith.

[Taphophilia]

I think this is something that Chrisitans who come here do not understand, nor can they grasp. We didn't have a choice nor did we walk away from Christianity. It was Jesus who slowly faded away until all we could do was admit he had simply been an illusion the entire time. Realizing your best friend is simply part of your imagination is a humbling experiece. It's also frightening to realize you are all on your own without someone in your corner pulling strings for you. Many Christians just aren't that humble or honest with themselves.

[GraphicsGuy]

Exactly, Hans (whoops...and Taph...good post!)...you've "been there, done that" and most of us on here seem to have gone through it all as well...besided the few young 'uns who have managed to escape early. Still, with the way Evan Xianity targets teens these days no one gets out unscathed.

 

What didn't most of us try? If one method/doctrine didn't seem right or utterly failed, we'd try another. We jumped on the latest bandwagons, we "returned to our roots" and tried to regrow. We returned to the book of Acts, we returned to the words of Christ, we tried to do what Jesus did, we tried literalism, we tried symbolism, we tried fundamentalist Xianity, we tried liberal Xianity, we tried more prayer, more Bible reading, we memorized, we intercessed, we gave, we served...

 

...we NEVER merely "gave up."

 

We all eventually got to the point where "enough is enough." Regardless of what brought us there, we all got there. And we're all moving forward. Difficult at first, but it picks up steam.

 

And I don't think any of us regrets leaving...??? I know I say that I am far better off now than I was as a Xian and I see those same words echoed by everyone on here (as far as I am aware of).

[Taphophilia]

I wouldn't say we are all better off, just different. Some are and some are not. If I could believe, I would have an instant community and support system at my parents chruch where they are charter members. As it is, I'm pretty much alone, alienated, and on the outside looking in simply because I don't believe. Though, I can't believe even if I wanted to even though it hurts people I love who believe I'm headed for hell and I won't be with them in Heaven.

[GraphicsGuy]

True, Taph. Very valid point. I guess it depends on what personal version of "better off" each of us have and to what extent we are "better off" in...

 

I say I am "better off" because I am so much more emtionally and mentally stable without religion driving me insane. I am alone for the most part (whereas I had people around before), but I know that will change over time (I hope).

 

So, yeah, I guess "better off" is a rather relative term...

 

Personally, I don't regret being where I am in my life. That's a little more ambiguous.

[Grandpa Harley]

It's the hubris of youth... I quite like the great Zen sage, Bob Dylan's take on it...

 

Crimson flames tied through my ears

Rollin' high and mighty traps

Pounced with fire on flaming roads

Using ideas as my maps

"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I

Proud 'neath heated brow.

Ah, but I was so much older then,

I'm younger than that now.

 

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth

"Rip down all hate," I screamed

Lies that life is black and white

Spoke from my skull. I dreamed

Romantic facts of musketeers

Foundationed deep, somehow.

Ah, but I was so much older then,

I'm younger than that now.

 

Girls' faces formed the forward path

From phony jealousy

To memorizing politics

Of ancient history

Flung down by corpse evangelists

Unthought of, though, somehow.

Ah, but I was so much older then,

I'm younger than that now.

 

A self-ordained professor's tongue

Too serious to fool

Spouted out that liberty

Is just equality in school

"Equality," I spoke the word

As if a wedding vow.

Ah, but I was so much older then,

I'm younger than that now.

 

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand

At the mongrel dogs who teach

Fearing not that I'd become my enemy

In the instant that I preach

My pathway led by confusion boats

Mutiny from stern to bow.

Ah, but I was so much older then,

I'm younger than that now.

 

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats

Too noble to neglect

Deceived me into thinking

I had something to protect

Good and bad, I define these terms

Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.

Ah, but I was so much older then,

I'm younger than that now.

[Guest RevDDM]

Here's one that makes just as much sense:

 

"One bright day, in the middle of the night,

two dead boys got up to fight.

Back to back, they faced each-other;

drew their swords, and shot each-other.

If you do not believe this lie, it's true.

Ask the blind man: he saw it, too!"

 

-Joker, Superman: Emperor Joker

 

Or, how about this one?

 

"What doth life?"

-Xavier: Renegade Angel

 

With that, I retire to cooler volcanoes...

 

-D-

[Grandpa Harley]

Not only dumb, but a wimp too

[Kuroikaze]

Actually, the Catholic church stole their texts from some of the few true Christian churches they could catch, before they went underground. Non-Catholic "reformationist" scribes, like John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and the two men working for King James (and their team of references and Hebrew translators) brought us the real Bible, translated from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The Catholic version is taken from the Latin Vulgate translation, which obviously would have misinterpreted some Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts out of context. The Catholic church tried to stop the direct translations of the original books of the Bible that could be historically verified (OT&NT), because it eliminated the Catholic tradition sources (like the Apocrypha, deuterocanonical texts, Gnostic gospels, and pseudepigraphical texts). "Put that in your pipe and smoke it", Deva

 

I had to comment on this because you say so many things which are just flat out wrong. The Catholic church was the ONLY church for around 1,000 years.

 

1.The original King James WAS translated from the Latin Vulgate because the people who did the translation did not have access to Greek Manuscripts, and did not realize how inaccurate the Vulgate was.

 

2.Martin Luther had nothing to do with an English translation of the bible, he was German and therefore worked on a German translation.

 

3. The Catholic's do not use Gnostic or psudepegraphacal text as sources, indeed it was the catholic council of Nicaea that declared those texts to be forgeries...of course what they got wrong was that many of the books that made it into the bible were also forgeries, 1st and 2nd Timothy, 2nd Peter, and a few others are almost certainly forgeries written during the 2nd century.

 

4. The Churches that the Catholic church defeated in the battle for supremacy during the first 3 centuries of the churches existence included, the Ebonites, who thought you had to become Jewish to be a Chrisitan, The Marcionites, who believed that the god of the old testament was a demon that Christ came to save us from, and the Gnostics...no one is even sure what the gnostics believed, but both the catholic and the protestant churches completely rejected the gnostic texts as heretical.

 

So what, if you please, church are you talking about that had this oh so perfect pristine theology that you believe in...I don't think it exists.

 

Furthermore, you keep preaching about the "proper christian theology" taught in the bible. It is my contention that no such thing exists, and that the bible is a conflicting pile of nonsense. So I have a challenge to you, present to me some of these "biblical" teachings you think are born out by the bible and I can almost guarantee you that I will be able to show chapter and verse passages that contradict the things you believe.

 

See, unlike you I have read the bible... A lot, and this notion of a unified message in that thing is just a dream, I'm sure your pastor or whoever sold it to you well, but reality is that there is NOT a single message in the bible, that the bible does agree at all is testament to the amazing ability of Catholic bible editors to change things around, and declare as heretical any book that differed to greatly.

[MathGeek]

Christianity was never a reasonable proposition for me, hence why it was so easy for me to reject it.

[Grandpa Harley]

BTW, got this great Billet deux from the Rev this AM... I think I'm in with the chance of a shag here!

 

I left because of The-Doctor's suggestion. One of the reasons for me coming to this board was to hone my communicational skills; invaluable, if I am to teach about the Bible on more than an individual basis. Your opinions don't matter to me; mainly, because you're not intelligent enough to garner my interest.

 

I noticed you kept posting to and about me after I left that board. I wonder if you're really that insecure, that you would keep someone around with petty taunts, just so you can foster some delusional idea of supremacy... it appears I'm not the only one with psychological problems...

 

Finally, to clarify a point... I did try to go into the Army, and suffered a psychological break-down. My drill sergeants persuaded me to accept a Chapter 2 discharge (if you're really a veteran, as you allude to being, you should know all about the chapters); because, if I remained in the service, my mental state might have put a dangerous burden on my fellow soldiers. Tell me, just out of curiosity: did you volunteer; or were you forced into the service by a draft, against your will?

 

I have no fear of... individuals like you. Only someone like... you would fear such an individual. The only reason I'm not your Moriarty, is because you are so far beneath me, intellectually, that I would have to stoop to your level. This is apparent in the lack of logical information you produce in your petulant rantings, and your astounding lack of scriptural knowledge. For someone who knows so much, you've certainly made a fool of

yourself...

 

since someone with that small an ego will be lurking... If you were half as smart as you think you are, then you'd know that, in the free world (the UK) we've not had a draft since the 1950s... unlike the US's little adventure in SE Asia. And do come back, you're amusing to taunt...

 

Please resume the thread now...

[Grandpa Harley]

 

a damned fine post there!

[Evolution_beyond]

Here's one that makes just as much sense:

 

"One bright day, in the middle of the night,

two dead boys got up to fight.

Back to back, they faced each-other;

drew their swords, and shot each-other.

If you do not believe this lie, it's true.

Ask the blind man: he saw it, too!"

 

-Joker, Superman: Emperor Joker

 

Or, how about this one?

 

"What doth life?"

-Xavier: Renegade Angel

 

With that, I retire to cooler volcanoes...

 

-D-

 

I pity you that you do not appreciate the enormous sense of Bob Dylan's lyrics - but think it is nonsense instead.

 

If you think the line about being "so much older then, I'm younger than that now" is on a par with "back to back, they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other" - then this is just more proof that fundamentalists really do not understand metaphor.

[Grandpa Harley]

and crowed about his superior intellect... screwball...